Squaring Robots Book 8 with Mega Traveller

[OjnoTheRed]

My Far Explorer Ship has come some way from initial inception. I designed a probe for it based on a hybrid of the Special Supplement 3 - Missiles rules with Mega Traveller Craft Design, ignoring weight.

Hemdian made the excellent suggestion that it would be desirable to collect used probes (they are expensive) and so a robotic brain with basic commands (such as "if communication lost, return to ship").

Of course, this begs the question - how do we square the CT Book 8 - Robots rules to Mega Traveller craft design? My thinking is that it can't be that hard - the same people did both sets of rules.

I'm not sure if someone has addressed this before - I'd very much appreciate a nudge in the right direction. I note that this is listed as an "outstanding problem" for the MegaTraveller Errata file. That file also says that an attempt at reconciliation presents "serious issues" and that David Jacques-Watson has outlined some rules changes. But I'm having a bit of trouble finding his article. I want to share the following observations as a starting point.

On a quick glance, the configuration weight and price multipliers are identical in Book 8 and Mega Traveller Craft Design. Book 8 simply has two more configurations. So far so good.

But there's more. The standard Robot configurations match UCP values for hulls imperfectly - but there's a pattern. Where chassis litres in the Robot chassis match existing UCP values (100, 500, 750 and 1000 litres), the weight is identical but the price is five times as much.

It also appears to me that the Robot Chassis chart in Book 8 has added an extra zero to price for 5, 10, 20 50 and 80 litre chassis.

Finally, the armour listing for Robot Chassis is "Mesh" - that is, Armour Value 2 in Mega Traveller.

Thus, it would appear that for the same weight of Robot Chassis, you get an armour of 2 not of 4. Since the Armour-2 weight multiplier is 0.5, this means that effective robot chassis are twice as heavy for the equivalent armour/volume combination in MegaTraveller.

In summary, to square the Robot Chassis table with the Mega Traveller Hull Table is to add the outstanding values, assume a base weight of 1kg / 10 litres of hull/chassis, and provide a new "robot" configuration of a weight multiplier of 2 and a price modifier of 5 when designing a robot.

This leads to the following values being added to the Select Vehicle Chassis table:

Note that for ease on the eyes I have listed units in litres instead of kilolitres and weight in kilograms rather than tonnes. Divide by 1,000 for direct comparison to the Craft Design Select Vehicle Chassis Table.

We then extend the "config" table as follows.

My proposal would be that we add two new configuration codes (A and B) to cope with robot configurations. We qualify the armour for Pseudo-Biological robots to say that the Armour Multiplier is always 1, and is always the equivalent of Jack (i.e. armour value 1 against brawling / blades only).

Where a robot brain is provided, we require that the craft have a robot configuration added to any other configuration. The effect on streamlining and configuration chosen is cumulative: thus, it is possible to create a streamlined robot craft, if very pricey.

Hell, it would be possible to create a 10,000 displacement ton "giant woman" with Config = B who shoots lasers out of her eyes. Hmmmm. Design spec to follow.

Two things on the to-do list:

• Check all installable items from Book 8 for clashes with MT Craft Design
• Develop rules for operator being superceded via appropriate robot brain programming per Book 8 rules

... of course, that's if someone hasn't already done the legwork ...

 

[Zparkz]

I did some robot designs using a mix between the Book 8 rules and the MT craft design.
I'll see if I can did up my old notes, from almost 20 years back.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Thanks Zparkz!

I might just continue adding to this thread bit by bit until I've got the Robot Book 8 design sequence covered.

Thrust-based locomotion in Book 8 Robots and Mega Traveller Craft design are identical (after converting to equivalent units).

Contact-based locomotions are comparable. Both suspension and transmissions have minor adjustments from Book 8 to MT, and MT includes more mass and volume for lower tech designs. I am happy to take the figures from the MT design sequence without adjustment as probably a rebalancing of what was supplied with Book 8. Obvious "true" robots come into being at around TL12, and the figures for the higher tech wheels, tracks or legs in MT are very similar to the figures in Book 8.

Which brings me to the question of minimum volume. I had read minimum volume for wheels at 15% and tracks at 20% of hull volume. This roughly equates with the older Striker design sequence which was "5% of hull width for wheels, to a height of one metre" and "10% of hull width for tracks, to a height of one metre". The enhancement of the MT design sequence was to remove height, length and width and only address total volume (which creates, for example, the possibility of a spherical car ...).

But the MT Errata say do put a decimal point for 1.5% and 2.0% minimum volume where that weird space appears. The figures otherwise tally quite accurately, with perhaps some minor rebalancing. Anyone who could clarify would be most welcome.

 

[aramis]

There's no reason to treat pseudobio special. Just add a flesh armor type that can't exceed the exceedingly thin levels used in Wood Wind Fire and Steam (Challenge article on low-tech MT designs).

As for the minimums, at best, they are badly done. Special cases by scale.

 

[Zparkz]

Thanks Zparkz!

I have been looking thorugh my old material, but did only find some of my MT robot designsAs they are in paper format I'll re-type them some time during this weekend.
I would love to OCR them, but the print is quite faint and with an old dot-matrix printer.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Hey, Zparkz, whenever - it's no rush.

Now, continuing with the comparison analysis and moving onto power.

Batteries and fuel cells are identical between Book 8 and MegaTraveller Craft Design.

Fusion power is a bit different. The closest stats from MegaTraveller are the TL12 fusion power plants, which evaluate for equivalent volumes as follows.

As with the locomotion comparisons, given that volume and weight are good, and power output really only varies for the smallest one, I'm happy to take MT Craft Design as a reasonable re-balancing. Note that for the lower TL's, fusion power is not practical for minimum volume reasons assuming that our robots won't be built as giants. More discussion on that later, I think.

Looking towards robot brains and functionality vs. Mega Traveller vehicle computers, I think I can see some potential issues that may mean revisiting our assumptions about the hull.

Also, aramis, point taken about the pseudo-bio - it would be much more elegant to include soft-armour types as an option for all craft. The problem is, I don't have Wood Wind Fire and Steam. But I'm open to suggestions, obviously.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Also, aramis, point taken about the pseudo-bio - it would be much more elegant to include soft-armour types as an option for all craft. The problem is, I don't have Wood Wind Fire and Steam. But I'm open to suggestions, obviously.

Following with a lot of interest - though a question about the psuedo-bios. How is the PB chassi built? Is the psuedo bio a human shaped 'solid' metal robot with a cosmetic external layer (you could pull/shoot off the cosmetic layer off and the robot wouldn't be affected unless you damaged the metal chassi) or are PBs 'soft and squishy' like the androids in the Aliens series?

If they are the first type, then you could have the main chassi built out of metal or ceramic materials and hide it beneath the cosmetic coating and hence no need to tweak the amours types, while if they are the 'soft and squishy' model then a flexible mesh/polymer armour would be needed.

And is 'internal armour' included as well? Armouring a robots critical parts (power plant/CPU core) to prevent unwanted explosions or system shutdowns with a lucky hit. IIRC you can have "internal armour" on MT ships which add to the hull armour value in the case of a hit.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Hi Lycanorukke. Yeah, that's a great question. I confess for pseudo-biological I was thinking along the lines of Data from Star Trek: Generations. That is, metal and plastic with a skin of rubber or similar material made convincingly to look like skin. Could wear a suit of armour designed for the species they are modelled after, but not built in or the effect is ruined - may as well build a contoured robot (but why? an armed grav box would be more efficient).

But Ash or Bishop from Alien - yeah, interesting. Creepy white "blood" with robotic guts. Their portrayals suggest true AI - but we are just talking what they're made out of and what they look like.

Another possible model: Terminator - Arnie style. I don't think the "liquid metal" version quite fits into Traveller - unless we talk magically high tech. But the question of actual live tissue - hair, blood, nerve endings and all - encapsulating a metal skeleton is veeerrry interesting.

But onto further things. I think the robotic brains model presents a problem compared with MT Craft computers. I'll make a comparison between TL15 "top end" equipment.

Based on the Book 8 rules, a TL15 robotic brain maxed out with maximum allowed Synaptic CPU and storage to a specification of Intelligence 15 and Education 15 would be:

[b]Vol (L)  Mass (kg)  Price (MCr)  Power (MW)[/b]
71.8     15.05      2.475        0.2

This compares with a TL15 9/fib as follows (converting to same units):

[b]Vol (L)  Mass (kg)  Price (MCr)  Power (MW)[/b]
35000    8800       43           0.02

The two objects here serve different purposes. The robotic brain is designed to make decisions. But it is far cheaper than a top of the line computer, and takes FAR less volume and weighs sooo much less.

In game terms, we could justify the two things being vastly different as the computer is really a comprehensive on-board system that runs things strictly to literal instructions (i.e. code, presumably now in some form of object orientation - who can be bothered learning 65,536-bit machine code?) and the weight, volume and price reflect a networked system that touches multiple controls.

But the robotic brain, on the other hand, is an energy hungry (for its size) decision maker that is capable of interfacing with the outside world via body parts or direct interface.

But, on the other hand, the robot building process doesn't require installation of control panels - perhaps this is really the source of the 'multiplier' for the robotic body above? The controls necessary for the brain to co-ordinate the body?

P.S. I've always read "panels" in MT Craft Design to simply mean higher and higher tech "units of control" that are needed to control the craft. A TL5 jeep needs steering, throttle, brake and gear shift. That's mechanical controls, and possibly only one or two panels. A jump capable starship needs somewhat more. Computers represent a more efficiently networked and co-ordinated controls. So, a robotic brain interfacing with an on-board computer could supercede crew members (i.e. not a separate robot, just a brain installed) such as the navigator or even pilot. It would still have equivalent control requirements - i.e. panels installed.

This needs further thought. I think experimenting between small-ish craft with robotic brains and compare one with CP installed with no robotic price/weight multiplier and one without CP installed with robotic price/weight multipliers to see if they balance (at least roughly) will yield some answers.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Just spotted a mistake of mine. For power requirements for robotic brains, for some reason I read Book 8 as saying the power requirement was 1 kW per unit of CPU / Storage used. I have no idea why I read it that way: it clearly says that the power requirement is 1kW for the whole brain regardless of size. So ignore the Power column for the TL15 robot brain above.

Just my contribution to the volumes of MegaTraveller errata in existence.

 

[Major B]

Ojno, please keep this discussion going. I'm glad to see this getting the attention it needs and I hope it can wind up in the errata files.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

That file also says that an attempt at reconciliation presents "serious issues" and that David Jacques-Watson has outlined some rules changes. But I'm having a bit of trouble finding his article.

Probably becasue there is no "c" in "Jaques"...

Try my web site (link is in my .sig) under:
Tavonni Repair Bays --> House Rules --> Reconciling Robots (2 articles)

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Thanks Major B! I can't promise the world, but I seem to be on a bit of a roll now, so here goes.

Firstly, I have started by reconstructing a random selection of basic robots from 101 Robots. I'm taking these because they are done by the same people who did the Robot 8 rules, and so show what the original authors intended.

There are five robots I have done this way. For each of them I have re-done the robot design using Mega Traveller Craft Design. As I spreadsheeted, I started making in-game decisions about what would consistently apply in the spirit of both Book 8 and Mega Traveller, and the following principles emerged (which are subject to revision):

1. No seperate config multiplier
2. Additional Hull sizes (per the chart above with some extra interpolations thrown in).
3. Control panels required for interfacing brain to rest of vehicle. Fractions allowed. CP interface with robot brain or with crew member, specified at time of design.
4. If slave unit and no brain, no control panels required on-board. but robot now requires CP points and master unit to control it. May qualify this in future by saying at above 3,000 litres limited CP are required for slave unit to control the rest of the craft.
5. CP requirements now must be listed if external to robot
6. Power requirements must now be listed if external to robot
7. Loaded weight includes STR x 2 in what the robot can carry for all purposes (e.g. assume full load for power-to-weight ratio and ground pressure).
8. Personal weapons at actual volumes and weights instead of Book 8 packages (as listed in the Imperial Encyclopaedia) - this is because CP now required to control them and interface with brain.
9. All devices now take volume - using Mega Traveller Craft Design volumes where available; then using analogous volumes where item is not listed directly (e.g. 2 litres volume for 1kg mass is common for sensors); then fall back on 1 litre / 1kg mass if no other option.
10. All robots (and a discussion around definitions will occur later - for now anything with a robot brain or slave unit is a robot) can attempt tasks for which they have skills and are given directions.

For some of them I have also added in the robot configuration multiplier in a separate design sheet to see what difference this might make and whether it brought it closer to the original design rules.

The short answer is that it made almost no difference, but it may make a difference if attempting to design super-large robots. This gives a disincentive to designing completely automated starships, for instance (a robot crew member would be more efficient). I had to double the chassis volume for the Animal Care Robot; the Assembler Robot had room inside it already so no dramas there; others needed some minor up-sizing or take away small amounts from the fuel.

The control panel requirements are done exactly in line with Mega Traveller CP requirements for each section. The brain is the "crew member" that must interface to the outside world using the controls. The only gaming problem I see with this is that part of the control points built into panels is that, for example, holo-dynamic is meant to make it easier for crew members through a better user-interface - perhaps simply a tech table of robot-specific brain-device control is needed.

In general, the needed volume for control panels, weapons and devices that didn't take chassis volume has made difference in some designs and none in others. One thing that has struck me, though, is that I think the original Book 8 design assumed that arms and tentacles were mounted externally and so wouldn't take internal chassis volume. Mega Traveller assumes that the design starting point is the external volume of the craft - i.e. what it takes up - and everything except armour (i.e. the width of the skin) takes volume.

The original spreadsheeted designs were done in Open Office. I have PDF'd the files to show the calculations:

Animal Care Robot design sheet
Assembler Robot design sheet
Private Eye Robot design sheet
Road Bot design sheet
Cargo Handler Robot design sheet

This is what I propose for Craft Evaluations for robots for Mega Traveller. Note the Robot Brain section and the Other section containing the Robot specific stats.

Animal Care Robot evaluation
Assembler Robot evaluation
Private Eye Robot evaluation
Road Bot evaluation
Cargo Handler evaluation

One final note. The robots using contact-based suspensions are very highly powered! The road bot is capable of an off-road speed of 117kph!! TL12 gives a 70kph bonus to speed - 10kph per TL over 5 is the rule in Mega Traveller Craft Design. And that's just the practical minimum TL for robots.

Although I've had to make some guesses in reverse engineering the designs, the minimums of 15% for wheels and 20% for tracks makes a lot of sense. The road bot I worked out was 30% for tracks (spreadsheets allow you to play with the numbers), which took the ground pressure well below 6 even loaded.

Feedback on the design approaches I have used is very welcome!

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Dear Folks -

Probably becasue there is no "c" in "Jaques"...

Try my web site (link is in my .sig) under:
Tavonni Repair Bays --> House Rules --> Reconciling Robots (2 articles)

:rofl:

I'm so sorry. Well, called out on the internet for my muddling.

Thanks for replying, though. I'll read your articles with great interest!

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Hyphen, great article on reconciling the robot rules. I completely agree with all of your solutions - the pseudo-bio thing was shaping up to be a complete head-ache and you've gone a long way to curing it. Great work on the research about volume of your different body parts (yes, if somewhat confronting personally for you!).

The only thing is what I've said above - I really do believe a minimum of 15% of hull volume for wheel suspension and 20% for track suspension make more sense than 1.5 and 2.0 respectively. Depending on vehicle weight, of course, a 20% track volume will put you in striking distance of a ground pressure of less than 6 - very important for that coveted faster off-road speed. The design compromises necessary to achieving that make much more sense with 15% and 20%.

 

[Zparkz]

For those who are interested I have uploaded two designs MT robot designs I did sometime around 1990.
You'll find them on my Traveller site (link below)

 

[OjnoTheRed]

This post of mine contains links to a design for a probe-bot launched from a standard missile turret.

The problem is that with the control panel assumption there, I can't fit a simple robot brain to a probe as small as a Traveller starship turret missile.

I am now wondering whether I should revisit the control panel assumptions. Perhaps what we need is a table of necessary controls for robot brain-craft interface. We already have control points as units, we just need a specific table where the interface is with a robot brain not a human, with a big volume discount for not needing the ergonomics necessary.

This is the second headache for pseudo-biological robots. Let's say a TL15 robot has advanced image enhancement installed for some form of very much superior vision. The cost times the tech level means 30 litres of control panel being installed - a third of the robot's volume. To square allowing for control of the craft with a robot brain, I think I've talked myself into a heavy discount for control points required for robot brain - craft interface.

Come to think of it, if we start at TL11 for such control interfaces, we can allow for excellent solid state electronics waaay more advanced than we currently see. I'll have a think about some reasonable values.

On another front, on re-reading my previous posts about the robotic config multiplier, I am convinced now that it should be kept. It can be justified on the basis that where a robot brain is installed it's "nervous system" - that is, the various electronics needed for its complete functioning including sensory input and control over its environment - must be installed throughout the craft. But as said before, a robot starship is much less efficient than a starship with robot operators.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I have questioned my assumptions regard control panels and come up with an answer (for now) based on nothing more than massaging the numbers until I got the answer I wanted. Meh.

Firstly, I seemed to remember that for Classic Traveller, starship design had a bridge fixed at 2% displacement tons or 20 displacement tons minimum. This was presumably to leave room for crew members to wonder around as well as the actual electronics etc. themselves.

So control panels include some measure of the volume necessary for a sentient to interface with the vehicle to control it.

The volume needed for a robot brain to do so would be much less (lack of screen/HUD/Holo HUD and supporting electronics, keyboard, hi-tech uber-mouse). But not zero - in fact, the Book 8 rules supply increased weight and volume for most installable weapons on the assumption - presumably - that some extra gear is needed for the robot to control the weapon. And surely more control interface is needed where there is more complex and hi-tech equipment (e.g. communicators, sensors).

So I started with the TL9 Computer Linked control panels. These babies give the best bang for your credit / volume / weight / megawatt. Of course, they don't supply the relief from the skill penalties for dealing with lower or higher-tech stuff than you're used to. But they are a starting point for what a robot needs.

I then applied Moore's Law but obTrav: computing / processing power doubles every tech level. This doesn't quite square with the computer table because TL5 - 7 there is a very steep climb in computing power - by a factor of 8 to 10. But those tech levels look 20 years each according to the standard Traveller technology level discussions. And TL's move up very slowly in Traveller - they must, or the Imperium would be awash with TL15 technology much more evenly than world generation would suggest.

The result is this spreadsheet.. The column in bold is where you can enter the number of control points you need.

Note that these "panels" can only supply an interface to a robot brain. If a craft has both robot brains and sentient operators, both sets of controls will need to be supplied.

In line with this, I would propose that a robot brain's INT + 1 rating is the control point multiplier for installed robot brain control interfaces. Where an on-board computer is installed, the computer multiplier added to the robot brain multiplier.

I would be interested in other thoughts on control of a craft by a robot brain.

This design allows the space-probe robot (see this thread and this spreadsheet) to work.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Come to this one a bit late. You might already have these but there is some good design stuff in Dom's Errata:

http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/trav.html

and DGP 101 Vehicals gives some additonal rules for robot brains in MT vehicals. The robot brain takes the place of the computer and a crew member, and has a CP multiplier of 250 PER POINT of INT.

I still put in one computer linked controll pannel per Robot Brian to accomodate the links to all the systems, and to have some type of direct iterface to the Brain as well.

Anyway hope this helps.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Seriayne]

Someday going to have to knuckle under and poke at Book 8 until it makes sense. I love some of the designs that were created for MT, and pretty much use 'em in my games as established canon for flavor.

But I'm -still- using the simplified Traveller Robot design system from Dragon Magazine #64 I photocopied ages ago when that magazine was still relatively new >.< Dogeared all to hell and the Larry Elmore art from the first page has rubbed off something fierce.

Of course I do a lot of handwaving because for purposes of personal 'assistant' or autonomous TV/Camera floaty bots no bigger than a grapefruit you seen in a lot of Traveller artwork - I don't think either system can adequately allow for the construction of.

I like the weird walking trashbin Aslan assitant of DGP's Aslan/Solomani, but can't help but think richer/higher tech clans may have something much smaller, floaty, elegant, with induction or 'bluetooth' equiv interfaces. If a female aslan with a singleship needed a robotic pilot, I don't think she'd go for a huge 'psuedo-male' automaton .

 

[E.D.Quibell]

O, I also found Robet Prior's draft for intergrating Robots into the MT vehical system that was going to be a DGP MT product (and I sent it to Dom), which got shelved, but I haven't had time to read it let alone digest it.

Regards,

Ewan