Starship engineer requirements

[rancke]

I'm making a pre-gen character that is supposed to become the (sole) engineer aboard the starship the PCs are going to crew, and I've run into a snag.

Looking at the Engineer skill, I note four specialties that I'd prefer my engineering department was compentent to operate, maintain, and repair: Maneuver drive, Jump drive, Life support, and power. A case could be made for adding Electronics to that list, but I'll give that a pass; if a sensor pops, the ship will just have to manage without and get it fixed at the next port of call.

Now, if you have four engineers, each of them could be qualified in one of those areas, and I guess a skill level of 2 would be adequate, so that would be all right. But what happens if your ship has less than 200T of drives and power plants? Does the ship designer really expect that it will be easy to find an engineer with Engineer (M-Drive)-2, Engineer (H-Drive)-2, Engineer (Life Support)-2, and Engineer (Power)-2? Or would he feel the need to calculate with cabins enough for two, three or four engineers? And if he does, indeed, calculate with just one engineer, where are you going to find an engineer with 8 points of engineering skill?

And if the answer is "Oh, an engineering skill of 0 is quite enough to handle anything an engineer will have to handle on a starship", then allow me to express a certain amount of scepticism (and to drop the salary of my engineers to Cr2000 )

I am correct that there is no default from one engineering specialty to another above 0, right? No getting an engineer to Engineering (<specialty>)-4 and then deriving skill-2 for the other specialties, right?


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

I am correct that there is no default from one engineering specialty to another above 0, right? No getting an engineer to Engineering (<specialty>)-4 and then deriving skill-2 for the other spcialties, right?

That's correct. There are no "skill default/-1" rules in MgT. Although in certain particular cases I would add a house rule that includes them for particular instances (e.g. Slug Rifle 2 defaulting to Slug Carbine 1).

But yes, it poses minor difficulties for smaller vessels when using the RAW. The 'Level-0' is supposed to be a general level of familiarization or basic training. That is why in CharGen every character gets Level-0 in all Service Skills as his Basic Training.

 

[McPerth]

I'm making a pre-gen character that is supposed to become the (sole) engineer aboard the starship the PCs are going to crew, and I've run into a snag.

Looking at the Engineer skill, I note four specialties that I'd prefer my engineering department was compentent to operate, maintain, and repair: Maneuver drive, Jump drive, Life support, and power. A case could be made for adding Electronics to that list, but I'll give that a pass; if a sensor pops, the ship will just have to manage without and get it fixed at the next port of call.

Now, if you have four engineers, each of them could be qualified in one of those areas, and I guess a skill level of 2 would be adequate, so that would be all right. But what happens if your ship has less than 200T of drives and power plants? Does the ship designer really expect that it will be easy to find an engineer with Engineer (M-Drive)-2, Engineer (H-Drive)-2, Engineer (Life Support)-2, and Engineer (Power)-2? Or would he feel the need to calculate with cabins enough for two, three or four engineers? And if he does, indeed, calculate with just one engineer, where are you going to find an engineer with 8 points of engineering skill?

And if the answer is "Oh, an engineering skill of 0 is quite enough to handle anything an engineer will have to handle on a starship", then allow me to express a certain amount of scepticism (and to drop the salary of my engineers to Cr2000 )

I am correct that there is no default from one engineering specialty to another above 0, right? No getting an engineer to Engineering (<specialty>)-4 and then deriving skill-2 for the other specialties, right?

Yes, your complain is true: to be fully staffed, a shi in MgT needs 5 Engineer specialties to be fulfilled where previous versions didn't need 2 (as electronics was a distinct skill).

That's correct. There are no "skill default/-1" rules in MgT. Although in certain particular cases I would add a house rule that includes them for particular instances (e.g. Slug Rifle 2 defaulting to Slug Carbine 1).

But yes, it poses minor difficulties for smaller vessels when using the RAW. The 'Level-0' is supposed to be a general level of familiarization or basic training. That is why in CharGen every character gets Level-0 in all Service Skills as his Basic Training.

I'm afraid you've made a mistake here, as Gun Combat (slug rifle) allows for the use in all weapons in this category (rifles, carabines, ACRs, etc...), as the specialties for Gun Combat are Slug Rifle, Slug Pistol, Shotgun, Enenrgy rifle and Energy Pistol.

 

[whulorigan]

I'm afraid you've made a mistake here, as Gun Combat (slug rifle) allows for the use in all weapons in this category (rifles, carabines, ACRs, etc...), as the specialties for Gun Combat are Slug Rifle, Slug Pistol, Shotgun, Enenrgy rifle and Energy Pistol.

Actually, one of the subsequent Core Rules Books (Book 1: Mercenary, p.38) does introduce Slug Carbine as a distinct specialty under Gun Combat.

 

[McPerth]

Actually, one of the subsequent Core Rules Books (Book 1: Mercenary, p.38) does introduce Slug Carbine as a distinct specialty under Gun Combat.

You're right, sorry .

I own LBB1 Mercenary, but I was quite disapointed by it and never studied it too much (and for what I've just seen, I even forgot what I read).

 

[atpollard]

Hans,
I agree with your conclusions, and dislike the whole skill boat of the cascading specialties enough to prefer to keep the CT 'One Engineering Skill to rule them all" philosophy (IMTU).

 

[CosmicGamer]

Does the ship designer really expect that it will be easy to find an engineer with Engineer (M-Drive)-2, Engineer (H-Drive)-2, Engineer (Life Support)-2, and Engineer (Power)-2?

And if the answer is "Oh, an engineering skill of 0 is quite enough to handle anything an engineer will have to handle on a starship", then allow me to express a certain amount of scepticism (and to drop the salary of my engineers to Cr2000

And shouldn't the "super" Engineer be worth and be payed much more? **1

Why do all of those need to be level 2? Ok, I won't go so far as to say level 0 here since that is an issue for you, but why can't one specialty be at level 2 making the character a "Professional Engineer" (not that the rules require it to hold the position) and the others at level 1 be adequate?

But what happens if your ship has less than 200T of drives and power plants?

On the silly side, even on the larger ships, while it makes sense, I am not aware of any rule that says they can't all be, say Engineer (Life support) 1 with no skill level in the other specialties. Stupid? Yes. But no rule.

The point here is that anything other this is your personal perception and not a rule. While there is some merit to it, and I even agree with certain issues I think you are a bit too strict in what you are requiring and I don't know where it comes from. Please point me to a rule that is more specific about the needs (other than the skill level 2 being "professional"). Maybe in high guard?

Perhaps if the 200 ton ship is a military vessel or scouts, lab ships and other ships operating in extremely remote areas they will have to be prepared for all possibilities.

Lets go over just a few ideas to help open your mind to other possibilities.

Many people do take their cars to their handyman neighbor or relative for an oil change or to replace a belt. Mechanic 0 or level 1 instead of to a level 2 professional.

"I'm an Engineer, not a miracle worker. I'd need shipyard repair facilities and 2 days to fix it."
"You've got 20 minutes."
Something can break that even a one or two point higher engineer can't fix. Systems totally destroyed or need parts you just can't fab or jury rig. So I'd argue that while it isn't optimal, it typically isn't life or death if something isn't fixed.

If the jump drive malfunctions on the way out, you use your maneuver drives and head back to port if you can't fix it. After jump - same. During jump.... was nice knowing ya

If the Maneuver drive can't be repaired your comm is still working, call for assistance or warning. Ships are big, collisions shouldn't be an issue unless it's a last minute failure and then even a professional engineer still needs to roll the dice. Biggest issue might be if you are accelerating out to the jump point and lose the maneuver drive. You might miss the jump point and also continue to head out away from aid. The paranoid or well prepared can have a Launch or some other vehicle for emergencies. What would you do if it was a failure that was beyond repair.

How long can one last without life support? I think it was somewhere in the rules. Life support is a complicated system. I'm not sure if the loss of air or other issues would be most important. Can one survive long enough to get from the Jump point to civilization? In an emergency you only need to get as far as the closest ship willing to lend aid. In jump this may be a bigger concern. Not sure how much the additional air and whatever else needed as a backup would take.

Power. This can be a big one. Effects pretty much everything else. Perhaps maneuver drives can operate at some emergency level with just the fuel and some device that converts the energy to electrical and powers the electronics or whatever the drive needs power for. May need backup manual piloting controls. Perhaps high guard has some optional backup power sources. Break out the emergency beacon? This also turns into a life support issue. In general, as I said above, things can go wrong you can't fix so I'd think that a ship should have in it's locker enough of whatever is needed (rescue bubbles?) to survive until someone comes. Again, as above, a bigger issue and more preparedness needed for the remote operating ship. I typically make sure the ship has this skill covered well.

Electronics. While you dismissed this, I'd say on a scout, lab ship, or military vessel this could be mission critical. Lab ships could have some geeky scientists with electronics skill. Military ships often are not alone and might be able to slave off another vessel. Scouts may have to head back to civilization if they can't make electronics repairs that are mission critical.

Timing. Use those DMs. Take your time and do the job right. Issue would be critical repairs during combat. Well, engineering is just one of many issues you have because you probably don't have room for all the gunners, medics, boarding combatants, and redundant crew (one pilot and they get injured) you should have.

A character with NO engineering skill and expert 3 programs could perform many engineering tasks as if they were Engineer(expert program) 2.

A character with Engineering 1 in each specialty can with a cheap 1,000Cr rating 1 expert program boost a skill up a level for most engineering checks.

Repair drones and a ship with auto-repair is also an option.

Is there much difference between an engineer with average stats and a skill level 2 in all specialties vs +1DM stats and level 1 in all specialties. Perhaps one just needs to be prudent when hiring a single engineer to make sure they get one with natural talent. Kaylee on Serenity.

Even a more skilled engineer needs a player to roll the dice and the outcome is uncertain. What do you do when they fail? Do the same when a less skilled engineer fails. You just might be doing it more often.
---
**1 Is every pilot of every skill level going to get the same pay? Does every single dealer on a planet sell an air raft for the exact same price? Every dealer in every system throughout the Imperium? Many "rules" are just guidelines and generalities for the GM. In the case of crew salaries, I take it as a figure for what the average person in that position would make. Same as if someone today were to list what a car mechanic, accountant, and doctor make. Not all are equal.

 

[Fovean]

MGT Core rules treat Engineering as having specialties. So if you have Engineer (power plant)-1 or higher, you have all the other Engineer specialties (life support, jump drive, etc) at level-0. This allows one crew person to run the engineering section. May not be the greatest engineer in space but at least they avoid the DM-3 unskilled penalty. You can take levels in other specialties, so to your point you could have Eng(life support)-2 and Eng(jump drive)-2 but you have to earn those levels like any other. So yeah if you really want every specialty to be at level-2 you'll need more than one engineer (or a very old and very lucky one). And you'll need to give up extra staterooms. And pay more crew salaries. Or go with the power plant specialist and hope nothing goes wrong with your jump drive

I think most Eng checks are EDU based in MGT so that's another way to improve an engineer's chances of success. Eng(power)-2 and EDU 9 make power checks at DM+3 and all other Eng checks at DM+1. Again, he's no Scottie but the guy can probably keep your ship flying.

IIRC capital ships are different but not sure how the crew requirements in MGT HG work.

 

[Timerover51]

While I pretty stick to the LBBs, Starter, and the Traveller Book, I do modify the crewing a bit. I go with a Chief Engineer, who has the highest Engineering Skill, and then 3 Assistant Engineers, who stand watch, with the Chief on call, but also checking things regularly. Obviously, this does mean that I have to rework some other things in the ship.

 

[flykiller]

just to inject some real-world thought ....

mechanics and electronics are heavily specialized fields of training which require specific schools and experience before someone can be considered qualified to operate in that skill. the skills do not "bleed over" nor are they transferable in any way. in addition "engineering" - the proper alignment and operation of power plants and their effects such as propulsion - is its own field of study entirely. even if one is an excellent auto mechanic and a superior radio technician this does not mean that one may readily step into a naval nuclear power plant and light it off and put to sea. to top off all of this the field of "damage control" - what to do when everything is deranged and on fire and malfunctioning - is again its own field of study entirely. a "general purpose engineer" would approach being a renaissance man.

 

[Timerover51]

I base my crewing on current mandatory manning standards for an engine room set by the US Coast Guard for ocean shipping, and think that is a reasonable analogy to use. Given the range of engines on a star ship in Traveller, an engine room crew of 4 is an absolute minimum. Probably the one system you could have some cross-training on would be life support.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I base my crewing on current mandatory manning standards for an engine room set by the US Coast Guard for ocean shipping, and think that is a reasonable analogy to use.

Why not use the engineering requirements for a Cargo Plane, space shuttle, space station - there's no repair crew on the Voyager spacecraft....

A tractor truck driver or someone taking a fishing boat out for deep sea fishing doesn't have a mechanic with them every time and they could break down in the middle of nowhere.

I'm thinking this is coming across as a bit critical but that is not my intent. Just wondering why you make a comparison to current mandatory manning standards for an engine room set by the US Coast Guard vs any other current day comparison that may not be as far from the rules provided for Traveller ships vs just using the rules? The word standards puzzles me too. It sounds more like a suggestion than a law. What authority does the US Coast guard have over ocean shipping? What are other country's standards?

I would think far future tech thousand of years from now is more reliable than current day. The rules seam to support this. Other than due to lack of proper routine maintenance, I don't recall any random breakdown rules? Maintenance isn't even a weekly thing let alone required daily or several shifts a day. In fact, in Mongoose I believe it is annual - not even monthly.

an engine room crew of 4 is an absolute minimum.

Even with repair bots?

Probably the one system you could have some cross-training on would be life support.

What do you mean by cross training?

 

[McPerth]

just to inject some real-world thought ....

mechanics and electronics are heavily specialized fields of training which require specific schools and experience before someone can be considered qualified to operate in that skill. the skills do not "bleed over" nor are they transferable in any way. in addition "engineering" - the proper alignment and operation of power plants and their effects such as propulsion - is its own field of study entirely. even if one is an excellent auto mechanic and a superior radio technician this does not mean that one may readily step into a naval nuclear power plant and light it off and put to sea. to top off all of this the field of "damage control" - what to do when everything is deranged and on fire and malfunctioning - is again its own field of study entirely. a "general purpose engineer" would approach being a renaissance man.

So are doctors, for what's worth, and I've never seen medical specialties in any version of traveller (aside form some versions having a distinct first aid skill).

I think most Eng checks are EDU based in MGT so that's another way to improve an engineer's chances of success. Eng(power)-2 and EDU 9 make power checks at DM+3 and all other Eng checks at DM+1. Again, he's no Scottie but the guy can probably keep your ship flying.

IIRC capital ships are different but not sure how the crew requirements in MGT HG work.

And never forget about cautious tasks (taking more time to earn some positive DMs)

I base my crewing on current mandatory manning standards for an engine room set by the US Coast Guard for ocean shipping, and think that is a reasonable analogy to use. Given the range of engines on a star ship in Traveller, an engine room crew of 4 is an absolute minimum. Probably the one system you could have some cross-training on would be life support.

Depending on how much automation you have and how much you can trust it...

As said in other threads, MgT crew needs use to be larger than earlier versions. In most part this makes sense, but smaller crews from earlier versions, though less believable, were more game-wise, as allowed smaller parties to mann a ship.

 

[rancke]

And shouldn't the "super" Engineer be worth and be payed much more? **1

Yes and no. If someone with Engineer-0 is good enough, a "super" Engineer would be over-qualified and shouldn't be paid any more for the same job. OTOH, a "super" Engineer should be able to get a better-paid job.

Why do all of those need to be level 2? Ok, I won't go so far as to say level 0 here since that is an issue for you, but why can't one specialty be at level 2 making the character a "Professional Engineer" (not that the rules require it to hold the position) and the others at level 1 be adequate?

Even that would require five or six skill points. As for the rules not requiring it, that really doesn't help with the problem if I feel that the rules ought to require it.

The point here is that anything other this is your personal perception and not a rule. While there is some merit to it, and I even agree with certain issues I think you are a bit too strict in what you are requiring and I don't know where it comes from. Please point me to a rule that is more specific about the needs (other than the skill level 2 being "professional"). Maybe in high guard?

No, I think that skill level 2 being "professional" is all the justification I need to assume that a certified enginner would need a skill level of 2.

Many people do take their cars to their handyman neighbor or relative for an oil change or to replace a belt. Mechanic 0 or level 1 instead of to a level 2 professional.

I think there's a excellent case to be made for the existence of regulations that makes it illegal to lift without crew with the appropriate certification. Although there is no evidence for it (in MgT that is), it would seem very strange to me if the Imperium didn't have something analogous to the licensed mariners of 21st Century Earth.

Something can break that even a one or two point higher engineer can't fix.

Yes, but an engineer with skill-2 can get a license that one with skill-0 can't.

Systems totally destroyed or need parts you just can't fab or jury rig. So I'd argue that while it isn't optimal, it typically isn't life or death if something isn't fixed.

On the contrary, I'd expect any problem that a professional engineer can't fix to be very dangerous indeed.

Electronics. While you dismissed this...

I didn't dismiss it, I expressed a willingness to give it a pass. There's a difference. If you want to insist on all five specialties being covered, I won't say you nay.

Is there much difference between an engineer with average stats and a skill level 2 in all specialties vs +1DM stats and level 1 in all specialties. Perhaps one just needs to be prudent when hiring a single engineer to make sure they get one with natural talent. Kaylee on Serenity.

You may have a point there. Could someone with skill-1 and a high intelligence (education?) pass an examination to certify that he had a skill level of 2?


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

Why not use the engineering requirements for a Cargo Plane, space shuttle, space station - there's no repair crew on the Voyager spacecraft....

A tractor truck driver or someone taking a fishing boat out for deep sea fishing doesn't have a mechanic with them every time and they could break down in the middle of nowhere.

If you are a US-flagged commercial fishing boat, when you leave port you have a qualified engineer onboard as crew. A tractor-truck driver can always get a wrecker. I have a couple of friends that operate towing services. They do a very good business collecting tractor-trailers that break down. Their big wreckers cost $3000 to turn the start key. You do not have that in space.

I'm thinking this is coming across as a bit critical but that is not my intent. Just wondering why you make a comparison to current mandatory manning standards for an engine room set by the US Coast Guard vs any other current day comparison that may not be as far from the rules provided for Traveller ships vs just using the rules? The word standards puzzles me too. It sounds more like a suggestion than a law. What authority does the US Coast guard have over ocean shipping? What are other country's standards?

Most countries have minimum manning standards for commercial shipping. The US Coast Guard sets the manning standards for any US-flagged commercial vessel, PERIOD. They also set the minimum standards for very large yachts and other water-borne traffic. All commercial vessels operating are also supposed to meet the minimum SOLAS standards, or Safety Of Life At Sea. If they do not, the ships are subject to detention until they do, and any insurance that they are covering is voided for that voyage. For passenger vessels operating out of US ports, they have to meet US standards or they cannot operate. The FAA in the US dictates the composition of flight crews, and also maintenance standards and licensing, along with issuing airworthiness certificates for commercial aircraft. If an aircraft does not meet US standards, it cannot operate commercially in this country, and that includes international flights.

I would think far future tech thousand of years from now is more reliable than current day. The rules seam to support this. Other than due to lack of proper routine maintenance, I don't recall any random breakdown rules? Maintenance isn't even a weekly thing let alone required daily or several shifts a day. In fact, in Mongoose I believe it is annual - not even monthly. Even with repair bots?What do you mean by cross training?

What makes you think that technology in the future will be so terribly reliable? The maintenance set-aside in Traveller is a massive joke. I have a maintenance set-aside of 10% of the ships building cost per year.

I have a very low opinion of using repair bots. What you do is your affair. As for cross-training, I mean making sure that every engineer knows the basics of working with the life support system. Most ships operating presently have a designated engineer to handle the HVAC system, grey and black water disposal and storage systems, and pollution-control systems. Currently, all ships operating in US waters, including foreign-flag vessels, are required to carry pollution insurance sufficient to cover the cost of an oil spill from the ship, with the minimum coverage being $500,000. If you do not have that, the US Coast Guard can not only keep you from moving, but they have the legal right to empty your ship of fuel.

I assume that in the future, at least in my Universe, the Scouts have the same responsibilities.

 

[GypsyComet]

YCould someone with skill-1 and a high intelligence (education?) pass an examination to certify that he had a skill level of 2?

IMO, that certification is for Chief Engineers. If you needed a 2 to be in an engine room, there would not be nearly as many ships flying.

 

[rancke]

IMO, that certification is for Chief Engineers.

You didn't check the link? Licenses for maritime engineers are issued in the grades of:

* Chief Engineer
* First Assistant Engineer
* Second Assistant Engineer
* Third Assistant Engineer
* Chief Engineer (limited)
* Assistant Engineer (limited)
* Designated duty engineer
* Chief Engineer (uninspected fishing industry vessels)
*Assistant Engineer (uninspected fishing industry vessels)

If you needed a 2 to be in an engine room, there would not be nearly as many ships flying.

I'd say that the real difficulty with fixing this problem is that if you needed two engineers instead of one, ships should be designed to carry two engineers instead of one.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

What do you mean by cross training?

Cross training is training outside of your specific job. Let's say you are the Navigator. Its a good idea to get training in life support. It may not be your job, and lets hope you never need to use it, but if your life support guy ever takes a hit, you'd be real happy to have the knowledge/skill.

Especially on small ships, every one should have a basic idea of how to do everyone else's job. One should cross train on everyone else's station. I wouldn't want the pilot to fix a busted jump drive, but if he knows a motivator from an intake impeller, well its better than nothing.

 

[GypsyComet]

I'd say that the real difficulty with fixing this problem is that if you needed two engineers instead of one, ships should be designed to carry two engineers instead of one.

Because getting Traveller players to go for an Engineer isn't hard enough already...

 

[HiverLord]

Because getting Traveller players to go for an Engineer isn't hard enough already...

I'm lucky in that regard. I've a player who played most of an entire non-Traveller campaign around recovering and restoring a centuries-buried space vessel. (He's also a walking encyclopedia for various modern-day handguns, rifles, etc, and has military experience, which makes running a merc campaign 'difficult' for me...)

Personally, in any modern/space-based game I find engineers and mechanics to be much more useful than any gun-toting merc. But that's me. I don't like walking home (or flapping my skinny arms through space to get there, either... )