Stat that support weapon

[Blue Ghost]

I found this while looking at the superflashlight and Kriss links a couple threads down;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEu9LLQpOF8&feature=related

Anyone care to stat that thing for CT, MT or T20?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Metalstorm. It has been around for about ten years and no-one has figured out what you could really do with you can't do with conventional guns, and it is a bitch to reload.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah, I'd never heard of it before yesterday. It seemed so unusual as to be a piece of hardware from the Imperium.

 

[aramis]

Metalstorm. It has been around for about ten years and no-one has figured out what you could really do with you can't do with conventional guns, and it is a bitch to reload.

The one thing it has is rate of fire in the short term.

 

[sablewyvern]

The basic principle has applications for other weapon systems, such as the 3GL, which operates like an M79/M203, but with a three round capacity. Reloading is not substantially different from a normal grenade launcher, you simply feed rounds into the barrel one behind the other.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=251045&postcount=8

 

[veltyen]

The basic principle has applications for other weapon systems, such as the 3GL, which operates like an M79/M203, but with a three round capacity. Reloading is not substantially different from a normal grenade launcher, you simply feed rounds into the barrel one behind the other.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=251045&postcount=8

Well, the current plan is to have reload-at-factory rather then in the field.

I don't know how much of that is business case and how much is necessity, I suspect that there would be certain contact, rotation and packing issues. In the field current prototypes are for grenade launchers - specifically as an overbarrel grenade launcher on the AICW as well as a area denial weapon on robotic chasis.

Alternatively the difficulty in reloading might be a plus for high law level areas where problems with reloading may be seen as an advantage. Serial numbered firing tubes preloaded with 5 to 10 bullets for law enforcement for example.

I suspect for the near future they will only be toys and for special case scenarios. The extreme rate of fire makes it interesting - but is ultimately a gimmick, I see no significant over airburst munitions or gatling weapons and you do run out of ammo awfully fast.

What would make it interesting is if the barrels get to a price point were they were only a small fraction above the cost of conventional ammo. I suspect that will never happen.

 

[sablewyvern]

Well, the current plan is to have reload-at-factory rather then in the field.

The 3GL, or the weapon in the original post? 'Cause the reload on the 3GL looks pretty straightforward from what I remember of their prototype demos.

I suspect for the near future they will only be toys and for special case scenarios. The extreme rate of fire makes it interesting - but is ultimately a gimmick, I see no significant over airburst munitions or gatling weapons and you do run out of ammo awfully fast.

My understanding was that the original weapons were intended to function as a last line of defence vs anti-ship missiles -- when all else fails, put a solid sheet of lead in the path of the incoming warhead.

 

[Blue Ghost]

"Gimmick". That was the word I was looking for. To me it seemed interesting, but I have a hard time imagining a real application for this thing. To me it smacks of bordering on going against the Geneva Convention about not turning AAA batteries against infantry. Just my gut reaction.

Still, I guess I could see one mounted on a Keith Class lander.

 

[veltyen]

The 3GL, or the weapon in the original post? 'Cause the reload on the 3GL looks pretty straightforward from what I remember of their prototype demos.

Thanks for correcting me. I found the promotional video of the 3GL being reloaded - which apart from putting 3 rounds in the tube is nearly identical to some traditional under barrel grenade launcher reloading systems. Slide the barrel forward, insert the grenade (in this case grenades) and slide the barrel back and lock.

I had too quickly assumed that it was the AICW grenade launcher without the integral F88/Steyr AUG and with some additional fancy fairings. My Bad

My understanding was that the original weapons were intended to function as a last line of defence vs anti-ship missiles -- when all else fails, put a solid sheet of lead in the path of the incoming warhead.

The CIWS concept. A up to date CIWS fires 75 rounds a second of 20mm armour-piercing rounds. Some miniguns get even faster - potentially up to 200 rounds a second. Make that an array of miniguns and you can start looking at a thousand rounds a second into the target area.

On the other hand MetalStorm has no moving parts (well, ok, the important ones move) vs a rotary cannon - which has many many moving parts, which would have a certain impact on reliability. Important in a system meant to keep you alive.

It is probably still a valid concept - however a close in weapon system (CIWS) has never successfully been used, and may not ever be used before they are replaced by interceptor missiles over the coming decades.

I think you may have sold me on the last-second-point-defense role being one niche that MetalStorm fits in. Probably as a backup system to interceptor missiles rather then a primary system, but still a valid role.

 

[G. Fieendish]

Metalstorm is a glorified, though updated, Volley Gun from the 18th Century, that uses multiple caseless rounds preloaded into the "Volley Gun's" barrels, & electrically triggered....
As such, I would consider it as a disposable one shot weapon, in that the user cannot reload it....

 

[atpollard]

Metalstorm is a glorified, though updated, Volley Gun from the 18th Century, that uses multiple caseless rounds preloaded into the "Volley Gun's" barrels, & electrically triggered....
As such, I would consider it as a disposable one shot weapon, in that the user cannot reload it....

Wouldn't the logical next step be to design the 'barrels' as a magazine. Pop off the old barrel, slap on the new barrel and 'click' ... continue shooting. With a selective fire option, your basic 20 shot semi-automatic pistol becomes a 1-20 shot pistol.

 

[sablewyvern]

Metalstorm is a glorified, though updated, Volley Gun from the 18th Century, that uses multiple caseless rounds preloaded into the "Volley Gun's" barrels, & electrically triggered....
As such, I would consider it as a disposable one shot weapon, in that the user cannot reload it....

As the 3GL proves, Metal Storm is much more than the original concept weapon many people here are referring to. The guys at MS are working to use their stacked round, electrical firing system in a variety of other weapons.

For anyone who hasn't followed my 3GL links, the 3GL is a grenade launcher that can be under-barrel mounted or used independently. It holds up to three rounds in the barrel, which functions much like an internal magazine, but also doubles as the firing chamber. The rounds can be sequentially (and safely) fired electrically while in this stacked configuration.

They also have multi-barrel grenade launchers, for vehicle or tripod mounting, that use a similar system. Even if you write off the value of stacking multiple rounds in a barrel, the initiation system they are using has broad implications for a wide range of weapon systems.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Of course the MS concept means your "magazine" weighs as much as a normal magazine, plus an extra barrel.

Tolerable on low-pressure applications like grenade launchers. Not practical for high pressiure/high veliocity rounds, or if you need to carry a lot of ammo.

 

[aramis]

Seems to work just fine for the .50cal version, Bob.

 

[G. Fieendish]

Wouldn't the logical next step be to design the 'barrels' as a magazine. Pop off the old barrel, slap on the new barrel and 'click' ... continue shooting. With a selective fire option, your basic 20 shot semi-automatic pistol becomes a 1-20 shot pistol.

The Cyberpunk RPG sourcebook Shockwave had a 9 shot (3x3 matrix) disposable 25mm grenade launcher called Susanno, that operated in that manner....

 

[epicenter00]

I could imagine the weapon actually being quite popular in the 3I amongst mercenaries. The way I envision it, it'd be in the range of like 60mm - 150mm and would as saturation-fire mortars. The preloaded tubes would be set up in a pre-set saturation pattern. The weapon would be unreloadable and unguided to make them cheap. However, to get good, accurate results from the weapon, it'd need to be mounted on a carefully gyrostabilized mount, preferably on a grav vehicle, but requiring a computer to keep it carefully zeroed. (It'd reverse Hewlett-Packard marketing - nail them on the expensive launching vehicle and parts for it, not the cartridge reloads.)

The reasoning for such a weapon would be that enemy combatants are likely to be lower-tech and more numerous than the mercs and:

1) The launchers are cheap - unguided mortar bombs are very cheap to make.

2) The intense volley is often enough to make the occasional laser anti-artillery vehicle spend too much time worrying about its own survival rather than shooting down shells hitting the infantry and armor it's supposed to safe. Such massive volleys fired by swift, close launching vehicles would go a long way in overcoming the lack of things like air support in most merc groups.

3) To get reasonably accurate saturation patterns, you need the special launcher vehicle. Such vehicles, being fewer in number, are easier to guard and difficult for the enemy to capture intact. While it's certainly possible that reloads might be captured by the enemy, without the vehicles, the recoil from the tubes is likely to make any fire widely scattered and less effective, or only be useful as IEDs or terror weapons. Their weight and unreloadable nature would make them unattractive to use by rebels as well.

 

[G. Fieendish]

Re: last post
The idea's plausable, as I have seen images of minelayers, that used clusters of launchers to dispense mines, & as such, your idea would be a extension of such...

 

[kaladorn]

other uses

Youtube has videos of the area denial version and also a mortar unit deploying lots of 40mm grenades fast. Good for saturation bombardment and for rapidly deploying a heavy smokescreen.

I had heard of these being aimed at the CIWS market and that is a market where accuracy and ROF matter. Sometimes the former can make up for the latter.

I can also imagine it being very useful in a law enforcement sense. Take a standard auto pistol with 15 9mm and replace with 3 x 5 round barrels of 9mm - one hollowpoint, one armour piercing, and one tranq or glaser or rubber. Great multipurpose unit which gives you the full range of nonlethal and lethal force in the same system without a need to switch off to another system.

If they can launch flares, there could be civilian uses. If they can launch decoys or jammers, their may be self-defense applications for vehicles. If you could have one barrel slug and one barrel shot in a shotgun, that might be quite handy. Imagine also the case where you are a SWAT operator executing a breech - if your shotgun can have a barrel of shok-lok and a barrel of slugs or shot, then you can do the breach and not need to shift weapons.

Lots of applications for this sort of technology. It has certain advantages and specialized areas where it may offer advantages. As a rule, it hasn't offered that many more advantages and will currently not offer the cost advantage. But it could be viable in some roles.

 

[samuelvss]

Geneva Convention Urban Legends

"Gimmick". To me it smacks of bordering on going against the Geneva Convention about not turning AAA batteries against infantry.

There is nothing in any of the Geneva Conventions about turning AAA against troops. The Hague conventions deal with restrictions in the construction and use of weapons that cause undue suffering, which includes a ban on any expanding or exploding ammunition below 20 mm.

I think the "Geneva Convention" probably comes from the most prevalent urban legend in the military. Every class I have ever received in the U.S. Army on the .50 cal machine gun (probably at least 12 between 1984 and 2003) stated it was against the Geneva convention to use it on troops, only equipment, so [wink-wink] you had to shoot that their equipment [grabbing own web gear straps]. Completely false. Never been a JAG, but studied the Geneva and Hague conventions both in the Army and law school.

Now, in my Mech platoon, it was part of our TAC SOP that the 50's would shoot at APC's or soft skinned vehicles first, while rifles and light and medium machine guns would shoot troops first.

In a pinch, everything shoots at everything. If I only have 1 50 that had LOS on a BTR, and the SAWs had nothing better to do, then they pile on, drawing fire, causing confusion, and maybe tagging dismounting grunts if the 50 gets lucky.

If the Army put it in your hand, the the Hague conventions are not offended my its use in a militarily expedient manner. Shooting dismounts with Ma Deuce is about as militarily expedient as you can get; quad mount more so, AAA roots notwithstanding. Towed 20mm Vulcans (with exploding rounds) in ground support role, ditto.

The Geneva convention only gets involved with the treatment of detainees, be they POWs or others, who are hors de combat.

 

[G. Fieendish]

Re: Last post
Unfortunately, Samuel, add on protocols to the core Geneva Convention protocols do exist, the last 2 being a ban on directed energy weapons, such as laser "dazzlers" or microwave "pain rays", & cluster bombs/anti personell mines...
Currently, most European countries within NATO, as well as Canada, have signed up to these protocols, though the U.S so far, has not...