For those who are interested, book 2 of the FASA Adventure ships I contains information about subsector Navies. Not a whole heck of a lot of info, but definitely better than nothing <g>. In addition, book 2 contains encounters that seem to be based on the Fifth Frontier War. For those who haven't purchased the CD as yet, I can only suggest that they do so to round out their collections. I know I'm glad I did!
Subsector Navy Info on Apocrypha-1 !!!
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
Mind you, this is FASA's material, and it is all of about a paragraph's worth of information, but the gist of it is that the Subsector Navy only comes into existence during times of war. It forms around the nucleus or cadre of the Subsector Homeworld's planetary navy, and is filled out with other ships from other worlds within the subsector. Point is, there was actually SOME material floating about which mentions the subsector navy!!!
*happy kid dance*
Now, for the fly in the ointment
How is it possible to have a character undergo 4 terms in the subsector naval forces if it only comes into being during a time of war?
Page 7 of book 2, Adventure class ships I for those who are interested.
Mind you, I've searched high and low for any reference to subsector navies, and I think this is the actual first reference outside of HIGH GUARD that I can find in all of the classic material. THAT is why I'm happy, not neccessarily in what was printed on the topic matter. In theory too, there are also cross references in HIGH PASSAGE #5 regarding subsector navies - which means I'll be looking on EBAY to find such a copy sometime soon...
*happy kid dance*
Now, for the fly in the ointment
How is it possible to have a character undergo 4 terms in the subsector naval forces if it only comes into being during a time of war?
Page 7 of book 2, Adventure class ships I for those who are interested.
Mind you, I've searched high and low for any reference to subsector navies, and I think this is the actual first reference outside of HIGH GUARD that I can find in all of the classic material. THAT is why I'm happy, not neccessarily in what was printed on the topic matter. In theory too, there are also cross references in HIGH PASSAGE #5 regarding subsector navies - which means I'll be looking on EBAY to find such a copy sometime soon...
No references to "Size" composition, chain of command unfortunately. Just that it is formed upon the cadre of the Subsector Duke's home world planetary navy (presumably one that has star faring starships - otherwise, it can't go anywhere).
Adventure class ships I also contains the rank allocations for various ship classes, which I think Peter Trevor did up for his own website at one point in time...
Hans,
Look at it from this angle...
... what does the Sword Worlds Confederation Navy do with most of the ships it "procures" once the war is over?
Regards,
Bill
The Confederation Navy doesn't procure ships in the sense the HG rule means, buying them from shipyards. However, the Confederation Navy is an organization and has a continuing existence in peacetime. This implies a budget and a permanent chain of command. The Navy may borrow most, or even all, its ships, officers, and men from member worlds, but it has an independent existence. Navies are like that.
Hans
Hans,
Does the HG2 description say that the only way a navy can procure ships is through purchase? Or does it merely say that a navy purchases ships? There's a difference.
And how much of each ship does a navy have to purchase in order to have procured it?
Yes indeed. The Confederation Navy has an organization and a continued existence in peacetime. It has a permanent cadre of officers and even a few ships of it's own, doesn't it?
Precisely. There's a budget for the Confederation Navy and a permanent chain of command for the Confederation Navy. What's more, we know from TNS reports, SMC, and the FFW wargame among other canonical sources that during the last war the Confederation Navy fought it was divided into four fleets.
If the Confederation Navy, with it's budget and permanent chain of command, was divided into four fleets, what does that tell us about those four fleets? Were they ad hoc groupings slapped together when the declarations of war were announced? Or were they, like the Navy they comprise, supported during peacetime by a budget and a permanent chain of command so that they could plan and train for their wartime missions?
Yes, that's how the Confederation Navy works. Oddly enough, that navy covers just about a subsector too.
Wrong. Fleets have independent existences too and there's a huge amount of historical examples in several navies going back centuries to support that. The current US Seventh Fleet maintains an independent existence with it's own budget and permanent chain of command regardless of the actual air, sea, and ground units assigned to it. Assets change, yet the fleet still exists.
During WW2, two of the US fleets active in the Pacific were the 5th, commanded by Spruance, and the 7th, commanded by Halsey. Those fleets' only permanent assets were the command and planning staffs assigned to them.
An operational cycle would begin with Spruance & Co. under the 5th Fleet banner ashore planning their next campaign while Halsey & Co. under the 7th Fleet banner were at sea fighting. When the time came to launch the planned operation, Spruance & Co. would switch places with Halsey & Co. and - VOILA - the 7th Fleet magically became the 5th Fleet. No ships changed hands, aside from the usual detachments for repairs and refitting or the usual reinforcements. All the ships that had been in the 7th Fleet were now part of the 5th Fleet and yet the 7th Fleet still existed.
After a period while Halsey & Co. planned their next operation and Spruance & Co. conducted the operation they had planned, the admirals would switch again, all the ships that had been in the 5th Fleet were now part of the 7th Fleet, and the 5th Fleet still existed...
... just like the Sword Worlds Confederation Navy's four fleets exist without ships and just like the Imperium's subsector "navies" exist without ships.
In some our our earlier talks, you've explained the differences between SMC's pre-FFW fleet deployment and RSB's post-FFW fleet deployment by saying that the fleet moved. I agree with that, only up to a point.
Those fleets did move, but they didn't move in the way you presume they did. That movement didn't involve the wholesale transfer of warships, transports, and other assets across multiple subsectors. What actually moved, aside from a few squadrons here and there, were the flags.
When the 23rd Fleet moved from Vilis to Rhylanor sometime between the Fifth Frontier War and the Rebellion and when the 193rd Fleet moved to take the 23rd's place, the ships assigned to those fleets didn't pack up everything and move too. The "flags" moved, not the assets.
Why am I going on about "flags" versus "assets"? Because I think it may help us reconcile all the canonical difficulties arising from CT's and MT's various and seemingly at odds descriptions. We've an imperial navy, subsector navies, duchy navies, and planetary navies. We've numbered fleets, named fleets, and reserve fleets. We've regular squadrons and colonial squadrons. What we don't have is coherent system that uses them all.
But I think we might be able to craft one.
Regards,
Bill
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Strange. I edited that line out less than a minute after I posted the message. Or, at least, I thought I did.
Hans
(Note: I can't find my copy of HG right now). I thought you were trying to argue that a subsector navy didn't buy ships, it borrowed them from planetary navies. If it buys some of them, it owns them, and would need to exist before and after a war, not just in wartime.
Ah, you're thinking that a subsector navy can subsidize planetary navies rather than buy ships of its own? Could be. But it'd still need an independent existence, which is not what Hal wrote:
(Emphasis mine).Hal said:
Not if those navies really only come into existence in times of war. That's completely different from the way the Confederation Navy work. That would simply be an additional fleet raised by the duke, and I see no reason why it should need a separate organization to run it instead of just making it an IN provisional fleet.
I'd say some assets moved and some didn't.
No, we don't. 'Duchy navy' is a term I've been trying to substitute for 'subsector navy'. AFAIK it's not used anywhere in canon (If I'm wrong, please tell me; I'd love it if there was a canonical use of 'duchy navy'). So that's the IN, subsector (=duchy) navies, and planetary navies, the three-tier system just as described in HG. The problem is that MT made a deliberate change. Subsector navies became Imperial Navy reserve fleets. They even ran a search and replace of the terms for character generation. Everything HG said about subsector navies MT said about reserve fleets. Imperial Navy reserve fleets.
If we want subsector navies back, we need to persuade TPTB to retcon them back (preferrably as duchy navies). If we want to keep IN reserve fleets at the same time, they'll need to be retconned to coexist with duchy navies.
Hans
Hans,
Let's begin again and we'll begin with what Hal wrote:
Do you seriously believe that a subsector navy has no existence until wartime? Do you seriously believe that no admiral is assigned to it until wartime? That no staff is assigned until wartime? The no cadre exists? That no plans have been made? That none the vessels that will be assigned when war occurs have been informed of that assignment or have never trained together?
Do you believe that they say "Elphinstone, you lucky dog, the declaration of war just came in on the latest x-boat and the Vilis subsector navy is yours. Here's a list of ships you'll be getting and you can pick out a staff to help you. Now get cracking."?
Do you believe that everything is pulled out of a hat at the last minute?
Do you believe this because of some strictly literal interpretation of the phrase "... only comes into existence... ?
Or, far more plausibly, does a subsector fleet always exist in the same manner Spruance's 5th Fleet existed while Halsey's 7th Fleet was at sea? That a subsector fleet only comes into existence as a fighting force during times of war when the previously assigned ships from the subsector homeworld's planetary navy and previously assigned ships from other worlds within the subsector link up with the permanent fleet cadre and staff they've been regularly training with?
Which interpretation is more plausible? More importantly, which interpretation actually works in a military sense? The interpretation that produces an ad hoc force with no cadre, no planning, no training, and no cohesion? Or the interpretation that produces a reserve force with a permanent cadre, constant planning, regular training, and long term cohesion?
We can interpret that passage in two ways. Which way will hinder us and which way will help us?
Regards,
Bill
Let's begin again and we'll begin with what Hal wrote:
Do you seriously believe that a subsector navy has no existence until wartime? Do you seriously believe that no admiral is assigned to it until wartime? That no staff is assigned until wartime? The no cadre exists? That no plans have been made? That none the vessels that will be assigned when war occurs have been informed of that assignment or have never trained together?
Do you believe that they say "Elphinstone, you lucky dog, the declaration of war just came in on the latest x-boat and the Vilis subsector navy is yours. Here's a list of ships you'll be getting and you can pick out a staff to help you. Now get cracking."?
Do you believe that everything is pulled out of a hat at the last minute?
Do you believe this because of some strictly literal interpretation of the phrase "... only comes into existence... ?
Or, far more plausibly, does a subsector fleet always exist in the same manner Spruance's 5th Fleet existed while Halsey's 7th Fleet was at sea? That a subsector fleet only comes into existence as a fighting force during times of war when the previously assigned ships from the subsector homeworld's planetary navy and previously assigned ships from other worlds within the subsector link up with the permanent fleet cadre and staff they've been regularly training with?
Which interpretation is more plausible? More importantly, which interpretation actually works in a military sense? The interpretation that produces an ad hoc force with no cadre, no planning, no training, and no cohesion? Or the interpretation that produces a reserve force with a permanent cadre, constant planning, regular training, and long term cohesion?
We can interpret that passage in two ways. Which way will hinder us and which way will help us?
Regards,
Bill
No, I don't. I believe FASA's statement is wrong.
We can interpret the passage to mean what it says or to not mean what it says. I certainly think it would be best to interpret it to not mean what it says.
Hans
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Just a quick Reminder to you guys...
The Cadre, which is described as being from the Subsector Duke's planetary navy, remains in existence throughout the entire time, while the subsector navy's existence is then formed from units taken from planetary navies within the subsector itself. The key point however, seems to be one of whether or not the "flags" (ie the admiral's staff and admiral himself" remain in existence prior to or subsequent to times of war.
Now, lets go with the concept outlined by Bill - that there is a permanent structure of officers regardless of whether or not there is a time of war involved or not. This cadre then, would consist mostly of officers no? Would the cadre have any ships assigned to it at all? Who signs the pay chits for anyone involved in such a cadre? Is it paid for by some organization geared towards the support of the Subsector naval assets, or is it paid for directly by the Subsector Duke's planetary naval resources?
Much as I hate to say this, there are exactly 34 words devoted to the subject of Subsector naval forces. The gist of which is that the subsector fleet comes from the cadre of officers from the Subsector Duke's home world naval forces.
As best as I understand it from those 34 words:
Peace time:
All ships that exist as separate elements of various planetary fleets are under the control of the various planetary governments and maintained via the governmental budgets direct. The planetary naval forces of the Subsector Duke are also tasked with taking command of all starships within the subsector itself - but during times of peace, there are NO ships assigned to the subsector naval forces. The cadre that is formed from the Subsector Duke's planetary navy - are in fact, during times of peace, carried on the rolls as planetary naval forces of ONE planet - the subsector Duke's.
Thus, there is no need for a budget for the "cadre" during times of peace - that is earmarked as "Subsector naval budget".
During times of war, or heightened tensions, the subsector Duke assigns "Cadre duty" to various elements within his own planetary navy. Then, each warship from all of the planetary naval elements within his jurisdiction, are required to give up control of their starship capable warships, for which the Subsector Duke assumes command via his usual planetary naval assets. When the time of troubles is seen to have died down, the ad-hoc formation of ships is dispersed and the original owners of the hulls regain full control again.
As I pointed out, how does anyone within the Third Imperium (under the Fasa scheme of things) gain a career in the Subsector Naval forces, if it is comprised of only planetary naval forces of the various subsector members during times of trouble? I still think that GRAND FLEET is a better alternative all around
Again, my dance of joy at finding some canon material regarding subsector fleets is just that - that someone spent the time to write 34 words involving the Subsector fleet. All these years there seemed to be NOTHING about subsector fleets, and it didn't make sense that what they had in High Guard didn't detail it all too well.
My "Grade" for the Fasa material is D-, simply because it was seemingly written AFTER the book HIGH GUARD came out, and subsequently, left out the explanation on how a character can spend 1 through 6 terms as a member of the Subsector Navy. And if it is a cadre unit, why would there be a need for cadre unenlisted personnel?
Just my thoughts on the matter. By the way? I rather liked the four ship classes listed in Adventure class Ships I for the Zhodani class ships. That they are in High Guard stats doesn't hurt
The Cadre, which is described as being from the Subsector Duke's planetary navy, remains in existence throughout the entire time, while the subsector navy's existence is then formed from units taken from planetary navies within the subsector itself. The key point however, seems to be one of whether or not the "flags" (ie the admiral's staff and admiral himself" remain in existence prior to or subsequent to times of war.
Now, lets go with the concept outlined by Bill - that there is a permanent structure of officers regardless of whether or not there is a time of war involved or not. This cadre then, would consist mostly of officers no? Would the cadre have any ships assigned to it at all? Who signs the pay chits for anyone involved in such a cadre? Is it paid for by some organization geared towards the support of the Subsector naval assets, or is it paid for directly by the Subsector Duke's planetary naval resources?
Much as I hate to say this, there are exactly 34 words devoted to the subject of Subsector naval forces. The gist of which is that the subsector fleet comes from the cadre of officers from the Subsector Duke's home world naval forces.
As best as I understand it from those 34 words:
Peace time:
All ships that exist as separate elements of various planetary fleets are under the control of the various planetary governments and maintained via the governmental budgets direct. The planetary naval forces of the Subsector Duke are also tasked with taking command of all starships within the subsector itself - but during times of peace, there are NO ships assigned to the subsector naval forces. The cadre that is formed from the Subsector Duke's planetary navy - are in fact, during times of peace, carried on the rolls as planetary naval forces of ONE planet - the subsector Duke's.
Thus, there is no need for a budget for the "cadre" during times of peace - that is earmarked as "Subsector naval budget".
During times of war, or heightened tensions, the subsector Duke assigns "Cadre duty" to various elements within his own planetary navy. Then, each warship from all of the planetary naval elements within his jurisdiction, are required to give up control of their starship capable warships, for which the Subsector Duke assumes command via his usual planetary naval assets. When the time of troubles is seen to have died down, the ad-hoc formation of ships is dispersed and the original owners of the hulls regain full control again.
As I pointed out, how does anyone within the Third Imperium (under the Fasa scheme of things) gain a career in the Subsector Naval forces, if it is comprised of only planetary naval forces of the various subsector members during times of trouble? I still think that GRAND FLEET is a better alternative all around
Again, my dance of joy at finding some canon material regarding subsector fleets is just that - that someone spent the time to write 34 words involving the Subsector fleet. All these years there seemed to be NOTHING about subsector fleets, and it didn't make sense that what they had in High Guard didn't detail it all too well.
My "Grade" for the Fasa material is D-, simply because it was seemingly written AFTER the book HIGH GUARD came out, and subsequently, left out the explanation on how a character can spend 1 through 6 terms as a member of the Subsector Navy. And if it is a cadre unit, why would there be a need for cadre unenlisted personnel?
Just my thoughts on the matter. By the way? I rather liked the four ship classes listed in Adventure class Ships I for the Zhodani class ships. That they are in High Guard stats doesn't hurt
It seems to me that the relationship between a Planetary Navy and the Subsector Navy might be like the relationship between the Air National Guard and the Air Force ... Primarily a Local force until impressed into the Larger force. The Subsector capital would maintain a top heavy Command sufficient to lead the larger "Subsector Force" in the event that activation were needed. I would also imagine that the Subsector Capital might maintain a 'double sized' Planetary Fleet to form a core for the larger force.
The Subsector navy might subsidize planetary navy ships in exchange for the right to press them into service. I always saw room for a subsidized J4/4G Merchant Marine to exist for similar purposes.
The Subsector navy might subsidize planetary navy ships in exchange for the right to press them into service. I always saw room for a subsidized J4/4G Merchant Marine to exist for similar purposes.
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Just for the sake of argument, what if the Planetary Navy of the Subsector Capital is the "Subsector Navy" (in time of peace or war) and the core of a larger Subsector Navy in time of war.
Then a character simply cannot serve on the "Planetary Navy" of a Subsector Capital (since it would be the Subsector Navy).
Mind you, this is FASA's material, and it is all of about a paragraph's worth of information, but the gist of it is that the Subsector Navy only comes into existence during times of war. It forms around the nucleus or cadre of the Subsector Homeworld's planetary navy, and is filled out with other ships from other worlds within the subsector. Point is, there was actually SOME material floating about which mentions the subsector navy!!!
*happy kid dance*
Now, for the fly in the ointment
How is it possible to have a character undergo 4 terms in the subsector naval forces if it only comes into being during a time of war?
I would guess that the "Homeworld's" planetary navy takes great pride in BEING the "Subsector Navy" in times of peace. They almost certainly have the best gear in the fleet. That's where your character fits in, even in peacetime.
My initial thought to your post above was "Nice answer atpollard", but that was a first blush response.
Fly in the ointment time.
If the planetary government of the Subsector Capital is one and the same as the planetary government for the world in question, then your answer would make sense. But if one can have a subsector Duke for the subsector capital, as well as a President of the Subsector world itself, then we have to re-examine your idea.
For instance, lets say that you do have a subsector Duke, residing on a world that is a democracy. Clearly, the subsector Duke is not head of state for that world, and that world would be perfectly justified in having its own planetary naval forces separate from the Subsector Duke's forces.
This boils down to the simple fact, that you seem to desire (and I share with you in that desire!!!) having a political master of a fleet instrument, that is governed by the Subsector Duke.
But, that's just the schizo nature of the Third Imperium as it has grown over the years (imho). With all the detail that wasn't provided, and the implications of all the details that were provided - sometimes it makes it difficult to reconcile certain things or lack of things iwthin the Third Imperium. You do no KNOW how difficult it is for me to not send Mr. Miller an email asking him to engage in a discussion about his creation. I figure that others have perhaps approached him on the topic and that he's had enough of the fan adoration of his creation to last him a lifetime. Ever since he's replied to my email in the past, I've had to fight the tempation to be "just one more annoying fan" and just accept that he has a private life totally unconnected to mine but for a few chance moments where his personality shines through in a nice fashion. <g>
In any event, I'm going to delete the message I was tempted to send to Mr Miller even as I compiled this note here. Sometimes, one has to respect that boundary of politeness even if the very devils of tempation chew like rabid dogs on your ankles non-stop
Fly in the ointment time.
If the planetary government of the Subsector Capital is one and the same as the planetary government for the world in question, then your answer would make sense. But if one can have a subsector Duke for the subsector capital, as well as a President of the Subsector world itself, then we have to re-examine your idea.
For instance, lets say that you do have a subsector Duke, residing on a world that is a democracy. Clearly, the subsector Duke is not head of state for that world, and that world would be perfectly justified in having its own planetary naval forces separate from the Subsector Duke's forces.
This boils down to the simple fact, that you seem to desire (and I share with you in that desire!!!) having a political master of a fleet instrument, that is governed by the Subsector Duke.
But, that's just the schizo nature of the Third Imperium as it has grown over the years (imho). With all the detail that wasn't provided, and the implications of all the details that were provided - sometimes it makes it difficult to reconcile certain things or lack of things iwthin the Third Imperium. You do no KNOW how difficult it is for me to not send Mr. Miller an email asking him to engage in a discussion about his creation. I figure that others have perhaps approached him on the topic and that he's had enough of the fan adoration of his creation to last him a lifetime. Ever since he's replied to my email in the past, I've had to fight the tempation to be "just one more annoying fan" and just accept that he has a private life totally unconnected to mine but for a few chance moments where his personality shines through in a nice fashion. <g>
In any event, I'm going to delete the message I was tempted to send to Mr Miller even as I compiled this note here. Sometimes, one has to respect that boundary of politeness even if the very devils of tempation chew like rabid dogs on your ankles non-stop
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