Subsector Navy Info on Apocrypha-1 !!!

[aramis]

Hal,

a cadre isn't always just officers.

In the case of the fleet, it's the HQ structure. That's the flag officers, their support staff, including lots of petty officers, especially yeomen and storekeepers. Maybe as much as 90% will be enlisted personnel, and maybe as low as 50%.

 

[atpollard]

If the planetary government of the Sub-sector Capital is one and the same as the planetary government for the world in question, then your answer would make sense. But if one can have a sub-sector Duke for the sub-sector capital, as well as a President of the Sub-sector world itself, then we have to re-examine your idea.

I see this as an opportunity rather than a problem.

If the Imperium is to be able to maintain order and govern, then those in IMPERIAL authority (like the sub-sector duke) need to be able to project power and enforce that authority.

For Example, Piracy and Commerce Raiding are potentially beyond the ability of Planetary Navies to deal with. Most worlds can defend themselves, many worlds may be able to patrol the entire system and some worlds may be able to sweep adjacent systems looking for pirates - but ultimately it is the Imperium (through its sub-sector Duke and Navy) that will probably have the regional resources to suppress piracy by hunting down pirates or operating Q-ships. Every Starport (class A to D) is imperial territory and may need the Duke to act to enforce that extrality line by something as simple as 'showing the flag' to remind an aggressive planetary government that there is a line that must not be crossed (and the Imperium has limits to its tolerance).

IF THE SUB-SECTOR CAPITAL GOVERNMENT is sufficiently authoritarian, then it can be safely assumed that the Duke is head of both the Sub-sector and the World. In that case, the capital planetary navy IS the sub-sector navy.

IF THE SUB-SECTOR CAPITAL GOVERNMENT is of a type incompatible with the Duke being the planetary governor, then that world will have both a planetary navy (perhaps) and the core of the Sub-sector navy. These 'exceptional cases' will need to be detailed individually.

One possibility is that there is no planetary navy needed since the planet is already patrolled by the Sub-sector Navy (sort of like how many SDBs does a world need if there is an Imperial Navy Base/Depot in the system?).

Another possibility is that the Planet maintains Boats (non-jump) to protect the system and the Sub-sector Duke maintains Starships (jump capable) to project Imperial Power throughout the sub-sector. The system could even have two inhabited planets - a world and planetary government in the habitable zone and an Imperial World on a gas giant's moon (complete with a city, bureaucracy, and Naval Base/Starport).

 

[Hal]

Hi atpollard,
(I'm not of the mind to pick on you, so don't let it seem like I am, I'm just working with you to develop your ideas more fully, and prodding you to do so in your own words)

Here is a listing of subsector capitals and their world profiles:

lderati: A887798 - Government type: Impersal Bureaucracy
Frenzie: A200436 - Government type: Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy
Regina: A788899 - Government type: Impersal Bureaucracy
Lanth: A879533 - Government type: Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy
Lunion: A995984 - Government type: Civil Service Bureaucracy
Glisten: A000986 - Government type: Civil Service Bureaucracy
Aramis: A6B0556 - Government type: Feudal Technocracy
Rhylanor: A434934 - Government type: Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy
Mora: AA99AC7 - Government type: Charismatic Oligarchy
Trin: A894A96 - Government type: Impersal Bureaucracy


Those are the Subsector capitals listed for use with Supplement 3.

Now, in what manner does the Imperial Government intrude upon those capital world governments allowing the Sector Duke to mandate that the planetary navy built by the World Government, is also the Subsector navy as well? How would he mandate how many ships must be budgeted for, let alone who pays for the salaries of those in the subsector navy? Frenzie for example, would be hard pressed to build a planetary fleet, let alone a subsector fleet based on its population value of 10^4th or numbered in the tens of thousands.

 

[rancke]

If the Imperium is to be able to maintain order and govern, then those in IMPERIAL authority (like the sub-sector duke) need to be able to project power and enforce that authority.

Which he is, even without his duchy navy. He has a regular Imperial Navy fleet stationed. As the direct representative of his august majesty, the Emperor, all he has to do is ask the IN admiral to go and enforce his wishes. A navy of his own isn't strictly necessary. But it gives him another tool in his toolbox, one that he is better able to fine-tune himself to fit local conditions. And we have canonical support for the existence of subsector navies (Retconned away by the MT material, but still...)

IF THE SUB-SECTOR CAPITAL GOVERNMENT is sufficiently authoritarian, then it can be safely assumed that the Duke is head of both the Sub-sector and the World. In that case, the capital planetary navy IS the sub-sector navy.

If that's true, then we must conclude that the sub-sector government isn't sufficiently authoritarian. As Hal pointed out, there are subsector capitals that are demonstrably not governed by the subsector duke. Regina and Glisten to name two specific examples. And Delphine of Mora governs her subsector capital only because she wears two hats, BOTH Duchess of Mora and Matriarch of Mora. You can even argue that such conflation of the two functions is against the fundamental principles of the Imperium, although I've no difficulty accepting that, human nature being what it is, the Imperium have had to compromise those principles in a number of cases.

IF THE SUB-SECTOR CAPITAL GOVERNMENT is of a type incompatible with the Duke being the planetary governor, then that world will have both a planetary navy (perhaps) and the core of the Sub-sector navy. These 'exceptional cases' will need to be detailed individually.

Or it's the other way around and every duchy has both a system navy for its capital and a subsector navy. Except for a few exceptional cases, perhaps.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Hal,

Two general comments and then a specific one with regards to your many questions.

The FASA material admittedly is sparse, but we can tell by the way it is worded that the author did not have a firm grasp on what little OTU canon existed at the time. The phrase subsector homeworld is nonsense from an OTU standpoint. While we can spin it to mean "subsector capital", it's rather apparent that isn't what the author either meant or understood.

As has been repeated for decades now, Traveller's first four books featured little or nothing regarding what would become Traveller's official setting. Among many other things, the fifth book, HG2, is where the setting truly appears but that doesn't mean that everything in HG2 applies to the OTU and the OTU alone. GDW was still attempting to produce a somewhat generic set of RPG rules when HG2 was released, in my opinion it was the release of Scouts when they finally gave up on that conceit.

This means that HG2's references to an "imperial" navy doesn't always equate the OTU's Imperial Navy and that references to "subsector navies" does not automatically mean that the OTU's Third Imperium even has subsector navies. (Although I think it does.) GDW was still talking out of both sides of it's mouth with HG2 and a difference between the rules and the setting, however slight, still existed.

With respect to cadres, they can be of any size and will include both officers and enlisted. With a subsector fleet coming into existence in time of war from disparate source, the amount of pre-war staff work, planning, and training required will necessitate a cadre much larger than an admiral, an aide, a girl from the steno pool, and someone to make tea.

I've some comments about the need for and roles of subsector navies IMTU, but Hans' thread on duchy navies is a better place to post that.


Regards,
Bill

 

[atpollard]

(I'm not of the mind to pick on you, so don't let it seem like I am, I'm just working with you to develop your ideas more fully, and prodding you to do so in your own words)

No worries, I know that you are just ‘kicking the tires’.

Here is a listing of subsector capitals and their world profiles:
[snip]
Those are the Subsector capitals listed for use with Supplement 3.

To my surprise, none of those governments could not be headed by an appointed for life Duke.
Most are Bureaucracies, which (even in the real world) are headed by political appointees.

Now, in what manner does the Imperial Government intrude upon those capital world governments allowing the Sector Duke to mandate that the planetary navy built by the World Government, is also the Subsector navy as well? How would he mandate how many ships must be budgeted for, let alone who pays for the salaries of those in the subsector navy?

Prior to 2009, there was no US building code written specifically for Hurricane Resistant Buildings – hurricane shelters were built to Tornado Resistant codes or just to local building codes. The first purpose built Hurricane Shelter built to the new Hurricane Code was designed by the firm that I work for and is under construction. In addition to being an emergency shelter, the building houses a local health clinic and is located on a county park site. FEMA (the Federal Emergency Management Agency) agreed that the Federal Government would fund a percentage of the Emergency Shelter IF it was built to the new Hurricane Code. The Health Department agreed that the State Government would fund construction of the Health Clinic EXCEPT for the expense of building it to the new Hurricane Code. The County Commission agreed to provide the land and maintain the structure but wanted the project LEED (Leader in Energy Efficient Design) certified. Federal, State and Local governing bodies are all funding part of one project with stipulations related to their specific needs.

I view the Sector/Subsector/Planetary Navy issue the same way. The planet COULD choose to build an entire non-jump capable navy at its own expense for its exclusive use OR it could build a Jump-capable ship subject to being pressed into service by the Subsector or Sector Navy. (the Sector Navy will pay 30% of the cost, the Subsector navy will pay 50% of the cost and the planet need only pay 20% of the cost. As the elected planetary council, which financing option would you prefer - Full price or 20%? If you choose Full Price, you still pay the same Sub-sector and Sector taxes to build an independent Sub-sector navy, you just forfeit getting some of it back for planetary defense.

Frenzie for example, would be hard pressed to build a planetary fleet, let alone a subsector fleet based on its population value of 10^4th or numbered in the tens of thousands.

The Sector Fleet is paid for by taxing every world in the Sector. The SubSector Fleet is paid for by taxing every world in the SubSector. The Sub-sector taxes pay for the fleet at Frenzie. Warships are purchased at any shipyard in the sub-sector and deployed at the Subsector Capital.

 

[atpollard]

As the direct representative of his august majesty, the Emperor, all he has to do is ask the IN admiral to go and enforce his wishes. A navy of his own isn't strictly necessary.

While true for issues too large for a Subsector to handle alone, it seems unlikely that the Imperial Fleet is in a constant state of redeployment to deal with every reported pirate or minor diplomatic incident between the Mayor of Startown and the Starport Administrator.
… And responding with a dreadnought seems like overkill.

Or it's the other way around and every duchy has both a system navy for its capital and a subsector navy. Except for a few exceptional cases, perhaps.

Besides being more expensive to double up on ships and bureaucracies, a large independent planetary navy permanently stationed within striking distance of the subsector government is an invitation to a revolt or coup. The subsector capital (and planetary Navy) firmly under the control of the Imperial representative for the subsector creates a more stable power base from which to operate.

 

[rancke]

To my surprise, none of those governments could not be headed by an appointed for life Duke.

Except the oligarchies.

Most are Bureaucracies, which (even in the real world) are headed by political appointees.

Any autocrat will have a bureaucracy under him to implement his decisions. The difference between an autocracy and a Bureaucracy as a government form is that in a Bureaucracy, the decisions are made by the bureaucrats. A duke could be the titular head of a Bureaucracy or an Oligarchy (Dephine is quite possibly an example of this), but not wearing his duke hat. A planetary government run by a duke would be a Type B government.

I view the Sector/Subsector/Planetary Navy issue the same way. The planet COULD choose to build an entire non-jump capable navy at its own expense for its exclusive use OR it could build a Jump-capable ship subject to being pressed into service by the Subsector or Sector Navy. (the Sector Navy will pay 30% of the cost, the Subsector navy will pay 50% of the cost and the planet need only pay 20% of the cost. As the elected planetary council, which financing option would you prefer - Full price or 20%? If you choose Full Price, you still pay the same Sub-sector and Sector taxes to build an independent Sub-sector navy, you just forfeit getting some of it back for planetary defense.

Nothing prevents an autonomous planetary government from making the exact same deal.

The Sector Fleet is paid for by taxing every world in the Sector. The SubSector Fleet is paid for by taxing every world in the SubSector. The Sub-sector taxes pay for the fleet at Frenzie. Warships are purchased at any shipyard in the sub-sector and deployed at the Subsector Capital.

But that would make the ships stationed at Frenzie belong to the subsector navy, be it peacetime or war, not the Frenzie System Defense Force. After all, Frenzie didn't pay anything for the ships, since for practical purposes it doesn't have a tax base to pay with.


Hans

 

[rancke]

As the direct representative of his august majesty, the Emperor, all he has to do is ask the IN admiral to go and enforce his wishes. A navy of his own isn't strictly necessary.

While true for issues too large for a Subsector to handle alone, it seems unlikely that the Imperial Fleet is in a constant state of redeployment to deal with every reported pirate or minor diplomatic incident between the Mayor of Startown and the Starport Administrator.
… And responding with a dreadnought seems like overkill.

Historical navies have been known to buy smaller vessels than dreadnoughts to fulfil roles that dreadnoughts aren't well suited for. We don't know how many patrol ships and destroyers and escorts the IN has, but we do know that it has some. And if there weren't all those subsector navies around to do the scut work, no doubt the IN would have even more of such small vessels.

Or it's the other way around and every duchy has both a system navy for its capital and a subsector navy. Except for a few exceptional cases, perhaps.

Besides being more expensive to double up on ships and bureaucracies, a large independent planetary navy permanently stationed within striking distance of the subsector government is an invitation to a revolt or coup.

Even if that was true (which it isn't, since the full massed force of an entire subsector would still be far too weak to stand against a retaliatory strike from all the neighboring Imperial fleets), that might have been a selling point back in the days when membership treaties were first negotiated.

The subsector capital (and planetary Navy) firmly under the control of the Imperial representative for the subsector creates a more stable power base from which to operate.

But if the biggest and most powerful world in the subsector doesn't want to be firmly under the control of the Imperial representative, what are you going to do? Seeing as planetary autonomy is one of the selling points of the Imperium, and almost all the other 299 subsector capitals feel exactly the same way? Worlds like Mora might be horrible embarrassments to the Imperium.


Hans

 

[Starviking]

To my surprise, none of those governments could not be headed by an appointed for life Duke.
Most are Bureaucracies, which (even in the real world) are headed by political appointees.

I think Marc covered this in one of the JTAS's - but there's quite a foggy boundary between governments in the real world. For example, Japan is on paper a Constitutional Monarchy - i.e a Representational Democracy. However - nothing ever gets done without the approval of the Civil Service Bureaucrats. IMHO Japan is an Impersonal Bureaucracy. If it was a world in Traveller it could still have a Duke as the titular Head of State.

 

[rancke]

I think Marc covered this in one of the JTAS's - but there's quite a foggy boundary between governments in the real world. For example, Japan is on paper a Constitutional Monarchy - i.e a Representational Democracy. However - nothing ever gets done without the approval of the Civil Service Bureaucrats. IMHO Japan is an Impersonal Bureaucracy. If it was a world in Traveller it could still have a Duke as the titular Head of State.

The operative word here is 'titular'. If he's just the titular head of state, then the planetary navy is effectively not under his command.


Hans

 

[Hemdian]

I think Marc covered this in one of the JTAS's - but there's quite a foggy boundary between governments in the real world.

Was it JTAS? I'm trying to remember which one. There was as article by Marc in High Passage that is relevent: the main point of that article was the UPP gov code described not the formal government type but the type of government that visiting travellers would have to deal with. It went on to list real world examples ... IIRC the US under FDR was a different code to the US post-FDR, the USSR was similarly in there twice (*). On the other hand, some have argued that being in HP meant it wasn't canon (even if it was by Marc) and that DGP's interpretation of gov codes in subsequent works undermined the article's premis.

(* = I once heard someone claim that the lack of a specific gov code for communism meant that communism didn't exist in the OTU. The HP article would refute that assertion.)

 

[Starviking]

The operative word here is 'titular'. If he's just the titular head of state, then the planetary navy is effectively not under his command.

Hans

Oops. Forget I mentioned it - I'm running on low sleep at the mo due to the wonder that is a newborn baby...

 

[Starviking]

Was it JTAS? I'm trying to remember which one. There was as article by Marc in High Passage that is relevent: the main point of that article was the UPP gov code described not the formal government type but the type of government that visiting travellers would have to deal with. It went on to list real world examples ... IIRC the US under FDR was a different code to the US post-FDR, the USSR was similarly in there twice (*). On the other hand, some have argued that being in HP meant it wasn't canon (even if it was by Marc) and that DGP's interpretation of gov codes in subsequent works undermined the article's premis.

(* = I once heard someone claim that the lack of a specific gov code for communism meant that communism didn't exist in the OTU. The HP article would refute that assertion.)

I think I was confusing the periodicals there - it was the High Passage one.

 

[Commander Truestar]

How I work things IMTU...

!: A world government is not nessesarily the same as the Subsector, sector or Domain Government. Much as the State Government of my home state(New Jersey) is not the same government as the municipal government of the capital city(Trenton). So the head of the local government commands(or is the boos of the commanders of) the Planetary Navy.

2: Planetary navies exist in Imperial Space as everything outside their atmo is owned by The Imperium. As such, The Imperial Navy is the organ of the Imperial Government that grants this license to own and operate combat vessels. This license is granted under a cooperative agreement that provides for the following:
...A) In times of peace, each licensed planetary navy(IE: Local navy) will submit to inspection and allow a percentage of their fleet to be assigned as part of the existing Subsector Navy with the following duties:
...Duty 1: All vessels assigned to the Subsector fleet will maintain communications with SbSctFltCINC via approved courior for the purpose of organization and command.
...Duty 2: When called on to attend Subsector excersizes and training, all vessels assigned to the Subsector Navy will confirm orders(via courior) and carry out all needed actions to eventually meet at the site of said training/excersizes.
...Duty 3: Provisions shall be made for improvements made at the expense of the Subsector Navy and advanced training of assigned crews to be maintained.

B) Since a local navy is not expected to submit to the loss of asset control and defense without compensation, the Subsector Navy shall provide a budget for provisioning of advanced equipment and training to local navies. This budget shall ber held by the Subsector government and dispersed as needed or proper.

C) At all times, the central cadre of commanders and staff for the Subsector Navy shall work with the world governments owning/operating the local navies to establish the following:
- A non-intrusive schedule of excersizes involving ships from member worlds and sections of the core command vessels from the Duke's Own Fleet.
- A regular schedule of excersizes which insure a constant level of training military excersizes or mobility missions provide realistic experience for member vessels
- A regular schedule of mobility missions for elements of the Subsector Navy such that SN mobility operations benefit worlds(and trade routes of) the Subsector.

As such, IMTU,
- There is always a Subsector Navy element in practice and/or mobility in each subsector.
- There is a permenant command staff for said navy
- There is a "Quid Pro Quo" for member worlds submitting to the "draft of their ships"
- Naval characters who test out well can enlist in the Subsector Navy. This would have them essentially serving on a ship owned and normally commanded by the local navy brass. But this ship would have better tech than its cousins not selected for Subsector duty. As well, the crew of this ship would have open to them training which was not available to those crews not selected for Subsector duty.
Finally, this allows for the opportunity for a character to "Be Promoted" to a ship of the regular Subsector Navy and move from their home world to the Subsector Capital.

For the Subsector Capital's part, There is a Planetary Navy and there is a SubSector Navy core command squadron. The SNCCS is a doublesized Battle squadron providing the ability to split away 1/4 its vessels per excersize while maintaining no less than 1/4 original strength in the Subsector Capital System. This last is despite what is said in the FASA product and provides base mobility for the SNCINC and staff in the event of required mobilization.
In the event of war or emergency mobilization, the SNCCS can be ordered operational by the SNCINC and, once all staff are boarded, make immediate jump for the nearest elements in excersize to integrate the fleet while smaller vessels are sent with orders for ships not in excersize indicating a rally site. This can be a mass rally or rally by squadron.

Not that MTU has any bearing on Canon or how you should carry out your TU.. Just an example

Marc
Marc