SUNDOG class : 100 ton Vehicular Scout

[themink]

With a v small bridge + 1 cabin in the "drive" section of the ship - it can act like a thunderbird!

Fly down and let the "vehicle" go - fly back to orbit nice and safe. The vehicle trundles arround doing it's thing while the pilot in orbit plays patience and offers helpful radio advice!

With all the overheads, do you think you could squeeze it down enough to all fit in 100dt? I suppose the type S has 20 tons of cargo space that you can "soak" into the tracks et al.

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

Well, the extra bridge is a thought, and I'd imagine you could get away with a small craft pilot set rather than a full starship 20 ton bridge since without the ATV making up the 100 tons the cradle would be the equivalent of a 50 ton small craft.. Btw...the Type-S doesn't have 20 tons of cargo...it has 3 (as per Pg. 15-16 in Traders & Gunboats). Since this version will have a landing plate you could dispense with the space used up by the Scout's landing gear, though.

Remember though, this isn't a conversion to a scout, it's a ground-up new design. Systems will be allocated for in either the cradle or ATV module. When mated together they're the equivalent in range and performance as a Type-S, but not the same thing.

 

[Tanuki]

Originally posted by The Mink:
With a v small bridge + 1 cabin in the "drive" section of the ship - it can act like a thunderbird!

Fly down and let the "vehicle" go - fly back to orbit nice and safe. The vehicle trundles arround doing it's thing while the pilot in orbit plays patience and offers helpful radio advice!

Might want to leave the 20 dtons of starship bridge up there with the jump drive and use a small craft bridge for the lander. How about breaking the two at 60/40 rather than 50/50?

The T20 scout has an extra 20 dtons of cargo because it only has fuel for one J2 instead of the CT 2 x J2.

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

I see. I'll look at those configurations as a possibility.

That's another thing I forgot to mention so please forgive me. Since I'd be using this IMTU, this initially is a CT design using the CT rules. Once its fleshed out I'll be upgrading it to high guard and T20 (or will con someone to do it for me in T20 as I don't have the rules

)

 

[far-trader]

Yes, very nice eye-candy, I like your vison though it's definitely not your Uncle's Sundog

I think to better stay true to the original (if I recall it right, and it interests you) the bridge should be on the space craft section, as well as quarters and weapons. The ATV part can get away with regular vehicle controls. As I recall, while plodding about on a world you had to sleep and eat at inn's so that implies no quarters on the ATV. Oh yeah, and I think it's supposed to be a real loners craft, a low end trader with no room for passengers. Anyway just a couple thoughts. Once again you no doubt have your own vision (as you have so nicely rendered) so feel free to ignore my ramblings and keep up the great work, can't wait to see the deckplans!

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

hehe, indeed. I made the pic from memory before the wonderful link to the Sundog website was found, so time did distort my vision. Also, I had already rendered the ATV as a visual aid for the 'Loggerhead' Amber Zone I ran my players through so rather than come up with the whole thing from scratch I designed the cradle to fit the existing ATV.

In the Sundog game, the ATV was basically a tracked cargo pod and nothing more. This version I'm looking at being a complete living and working space. There are some facilities on the cradle, but mainly the ground vehicle is the one to house most of the systems. A scout, or prospector, or whomever could land, uncouple and then begin their surveys and have all of their facilities with them. It's still a low -end ship idea...Someone who wants or needs a ground vehicle but can't afford or needs a ship big enough to carry such ground support craft. Granted this ship is also partially designed for specialized roles where the crew will be planet side most of the time so in that sense the ATV can act as a mobile base of operations. I chose to keep the turret on the ATV portion so the crew would be armed where ever they go.

Regardless, once the main design is done there will always be different models and variations. I'm confident I'll be doing both my version and the actual Sundog configuration. Again, thank you all for encouraging my behavior

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Tanuki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
[QB"Suetki" as the Japanese say (cool/beautiful)!

Typo there, I think -- you mean "suteki" (pronounced s-teh-kee). [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]-------------------------------------------------
OOPS! That damn Bwap editor is at it again! (Silly Gaijin that I am, I should've used the Vilani programming!)

 

[thedamnyankee]

If the winds are too high or some wierd gravametic things going on then your NOT going to land a starship there. And what do you need a 50 ton ATV for when you have a starship? If I had a 737 With VTOL capabilities I woulnt carry anything bigger than a hummer in it. Think about it, why would you leave 1/2 your ship behind when you could just bring it with you. I cant Imagine that there are that many places you could take a 50 ton ATV that you couldn't land a 100 ton scout ship.

Christopher Schroeder
-------
Why Does GOD need a starship?!

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Christopher Schroeder:

If the winds are too high or some wierd gravametic things going on then your NOT going to land a starship there.

True to a point. I think he was meaning effects that would be suicidal for the standard air-raft, but give a starship little or no trouble.

And what do you need a 50 ton ATV for when you have a starship?

Well if for no other reason than it's a great MacGuffin

<snip> I cant Imagine that there are that many places you could take a 50 ton ATV that you couldn't land a 100 ton scout ship.

True, not many, but depending on the plot and capabilities...

A world of extreme surface features (fissures, cliffs and such) with few large flat places to land a starship, but sufficiently navigable for a robust tracked vehicle.

A world of tunnels and caverns where the inhabitants live below the surface, no starport, just land topside and make your way in, no access for starships but lots of big vehicle traffic.

...just a couple thoughts off the top of my head. Not that the idea needs defending (it's a big universe) but I want to see it developed, for the diversity it brings if nothing else. Good questions though, certainly adds much to think about to the discussion.

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

Originally posted by Christopher Schroeder:

If the winds are too high or some wierd gravametic things going on then your NOT going to land a starship there. And what do you need a 50 ton ATV for when you have a starship? If I had a 737 With VTOL capabilities I woulnt carry anything bigger than a hummer in it. Think about it, why would you leave 1/2 your ship behind when you could just bring it with you. I cant Imagine that there are that many places you could take a 50 ton ATV that you couldn't land a 100 ton scout ship.

Christopher Schroeder

These are valid points to be sure...but there are things to consider.

In response to your point about the high winds and such that is true, but weather is rarely the same all over a planet so there will be someplace you can land, but it might not be the place you need to be. Here you could still go overland to reach it.
As for the gravity problems forgive me for not being clear. An example would be there are a lot of heavy elements in a tainted atmosphere. Prolonged use of flight gravitics damage the systems and at best will be some hefty repair bills...at worse the ship will eventually crash. You land, seal up the drives and effectively still have your whole ship at your disposal.

In my experience there have been instances where we needed the resources shipboard, but the ship was needed elsewhere...like we touch down in the starport and the drives need to be worked on. We'd have to wait until the drives were fixed or rent some vehicle capable of completing our job. In this way the Spacefaring portions of the ship can be worked on while the rest of it is avaible for use.

On your 737 and hummer. What if you're out in your hummer and you're gone longer than expected. Do you have a machine shop, sick bay, galley, your own bed...a ship grade turret for defense or anything else you might need in a pinch?

Other considerations....if a ship is preferable over an ATV, why have any small craft at all? If a starship is the end all to a crew's needs there'd be no need for air rafts or ATVs or ship's boats, etc. They are useful vehicles.

As this is envisioned as a scout ship, what is the role of a scout? Exploration. The main ship finds a suitable place to land. Then the ATV portion can travel around to survey sites and such while the cradle remains as a homebase point of reference. While you can go from site to site there are no guarantees you could land there (say in a dense forest). If I choose to put some small craft controls in the cradle, then there's no reason why after a new survey location had been found and established by the ATV the cradle couldn't follow, but even if it couldn't the mission could continue.

Another thing to consider is the unique attitude with roleplayers....paranoia. How many times has a group been at odds or play bogged down because someone was worried about leaving the ship behind?

It's an oddity, true...and a novelty to be sure. Just the fact that it's wierd will make someone want to use it. Granted I didn't realize I'd have to do so much work to justify the design, but I hope that I've shown that it does have it's uses.

 

[themink]

I like it - Who needs a reason better than "That's soooo Cooool"

With the increased Cargo that scouts get in t20, it should be eminently possible without bending the rules too much.

If I were designing it from scratch, I'd probably so with a smaller "detachable" section, but that is just me.

I would also put a turret on both the drive section and the "small craft" however I wouldn;t allow one of them to fire when mated - otherwise a muchkin player is going to design a 200 dT ship which carries 15 fighters in cradles - and doesn;t undock the fighters (They don't need drives, because they never leave the mother craft - so they can be very small) - 200 dT with 15 turrets - ouch.

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

Originally posted by The Mink:
I like it - Who needs a reason better than "That's soooo Cooool"

With the increased Cargo that scouts get in t20, it should be eminently possible without bending the rules too much.

If I were designing it from scratch, I'd probably so with a smaller "detachable" section, but that is just me.

I would also put a turret on both the drive section and the "small craft" however I wouldn;t allow one of them to fire when mated - otherwise a muchkin player is going to design a 200 dT ship which carries 15 fighters in cradles - and doesn;t undock the fighters (They don't need drives, because they never leave the mother craft - so they can be very small) - 200 dT with 15 turrets - ouch.

Thanks for thinking so

The reason I don't think you get away with the 15 fighters thing is when detatched the ATV is a large ATV, but when docked into the cradle it is an integral part of the ship...the whole mass is regarded as 100 tons thus there is only one allowed hard point. It just happens that the part of the ship that has the hardpoint can move around on it's own (so to speak). It'd say that the restrictions, if any, that keeps other small craft from firing their weapons when docked (ship's boats and the like) would cover any fighter-trick.

 

[RabidVargr]

My question is about the bridge, you said you were going to be using the small craft cockpit for it? If the ship sled is jump capable, my opinion is it should use the ship bridge rules, since the same amount of specialized systems will be required, as well as additional systems to ensure the two parts are properly mated and power's flowing correctly between the units. I do like the design, it's very unique. That paranoia could really kick in on a game when, yes, the pc's have the atv, but the cranky natives just got the sled.

RV

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

Originally posted by RabidVargr:
My question is about the bridge, you said you were going to be using the small craft cockpit for it? If the ship sled is jump capable, my opinion is it should use the ship bridge rules, since the same amount of specialized systems will be required, as well as additional systems to ensure the two parts are properly mated and power's flowing correctly between the units. I do like the design, it's very unique. That paranoia could really kick in on a game when, yes, the pc's have the atv, but the cranky natives just got the sled.

RV

On the ATV portion there would be a full-scale ship bridge (housing the normal ATV controls as well) so when the two portions are mated then it's a complete 100 ton ship with the required bridge. Without the ATV the cradle only masses 50 tons and is not jump capable so small-craft controls would be legal and all it would need in any case

 

[bozzutoman]

Another use might be for First Contact with low-tech races. Land away from settlements and travel in by ATV.

I would think most primitive sophonts would respond better to a big land vehicle full of alien creatures bearing wampum than a magic flying device swooping in, scaring the bejeesus out of them.

 

[thedamnyankee]

I think the problem is your trying to say this vehicle combo can do anything because it’s unique. I tried to come up with a scenario where this vehicle would be more advantageous than conventional scout ships. A 100-Ton vessel isn’t going to have such a large science crew that it wants to be in more than one place at once. And any place you can’t land a scout is probably a place you don’t want to land a scout. Remember the S class scouts are not intended to do everything at once. A first in scout will be fairly general, a little of each from the major surveys it does. It runs into something it can’t handle it makes a note in the logs and moves on. Later the scout service if it wants to sends in another vessel designed to deal with what ever it was that gave the first scout a problem. Remember in a universe where it takes a week to jump the sense of time isn’t the same, especially when the true jump time is wildly variable. There is noting keeping a scout from taking his time or waiting the extra couple of hours/days for weather to blow over, or for him to move his ship 7 times. The scout isn’t under a deadline to be back at port by 7:15AM 116. A lot of the reasons you claim your ship has advantages tend to be for the impatient type. Why not make a 100 Ton ATV? It’s only twice as large as the one you got.
Anyway, your right in a universe as big as the Imperium some one is bound to have built that vehicle. But a 50d-ton ATV is going to be hard to find parts for, especially if only a few where built. Not to mention that on may worlds there not going to let you drive a giant ATV with starship weaponry on it down the roads. I think the builder of this vehicle would have discovered that its disadvantages far out weigh its advantages.

Christopher Schroeder

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

It's very possible. The design might be as useful as teats on a bull, and I'm sorry if I made out like I was saying it was then end-all to scout craft. It certainly can't do everything and shouldn't. It could do all the things a scout ship could do though.

Correct, a scout doesn't have to worry about time frames and such and also there's nothing saying that the ATV has to unhook. The ship could be moved from site to site as a whole just as a normal scout could. The added flexibility of not having to was what I was trying to get across as useful.

I think also another thing to consider is that like every ship flying there will be plenty of times where it is not used for it's intended mission. Plenty of scout ships are now in private ownership for a myriad of different uses. I can envision people using this design from scouts to merchants....even a rich kid who wants to play a scout but doesn't want to rough it like a real scout would.

There might indeed be repair issues, but that might lead to some good roleplaying and I'd guess that it would be designed that comperable substitution parts would be acceptible if necessary.

People will gawk at it's size, though in the sceme of things there are things that are far bigger that are used as vehicles. I don't think anyone will blink an eye at the weapon. Remember by the rules there is no disctinction made from a vehicle mounted weapon and a shipboard. A pulse laser, whether on an ATV or as part of a triple turret on a thousand ton ship, is identical both instances.

Of course the best way to see how well it does is to actually use it. I'll finish up the write-up for it and post it, and I'll have my Traveller group give it a shake down (I haven't told them about it yet) and perhaps others on the board will do the same. I'm sorry you find it so offensive but I thank you for bringing up points for me to think about.

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

OK. Here's the write-up for the Sundog (CT Version):

100 ton Modular Scout/Explorer.
Streamlined
Power Plant-A
Jump Drive-A
Maneuver Drive-A

3 Staterooms, No low Berths.
1 small craft control set/cabin (auxiliary)
Model 1/bis computer
1 hardpoint, no weapons installed.
5 tons cargo
7 tons excess space

Cost Mcr 50.65 9 months to build.

The systems are divided between the Cradle and Crawler as follows:

Cradle (50 tons):
Jump drive, maneuver drive, power plant
Fuel (20 tons)
small craft flight cabin
3 tons excess space

Crawler (50 Tons):
5 tons for tracked suspension
Bridge (20 tons)
computer
3 standard staterooms
hardpoint
5 tons cargo
4 tons excess space

When both units are coupled together, the ship has a performance of Jump-2, 2-G accerleration with enough fuel for one Jump-2.

When uncoupled the cradle make use of the small craft controls to maneuver as any small craft would. Since it is now half the mass I'm reasoning that it's maneuver drive's performance is doubled, giving the cradle 4-G acceleration. I allocated 10 tons of space for the structure and coupling devices for mating the crawler to the cradle.

For the crawler it operates in range and performance as a normal ATV with the exception that it has the staterooms, cargo and ship's computer. I took guidance from the Striker rules that a vehicle's suspension should be 10% of the vehicle's volume, so for this 50 ton cralwer I set that to be 5 tons. Two tons are allocated for the ATV's drive and power components. The four tons of excess space on the crawler makes it ideal for customization. Increased cargo space, scientific, mining, survey, rescue, safari, or medical facilities could easily be allocated here. Of course more mundane uses...ship's locker, common area, etc. is also taken from this space.

The price is steep, mainly due to the 20Mcr. minimum fee (normally it is 30.65Mcr.) for building a nonstandard design (Book 2, Page 13) For the coupling and track equipment I also imposed a 100,000cr. per ton cost.

So, a scout ship with it's extra fuel capacity effectively has double the range of this vessel at nearly half the cost. On the other hand, the lack of the extra fuel opens the Sundog up to more avenues for customization. I'm sure on some costs and tonnage I overestimated, but as this was a new design I felt it wiser and fairer to err on the side of excess.

I offer it to the Community for enlightened evaluation.

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

Ok....the final phase of this grand experiment

I've created the Deckplans for the Sundog which I've provided for those interested in a easily printable .pdf format.

Sundog Deckplan

To help evaluate the design I'm going to have the players in my game take it on a shakedown cruise. For the next six months of game time they will use it as their ship as normal, but check in to receive special 'evaluation missions' to test the vehicle's performance in certain situations. What I would like is for anyone interested to suggest some missions that would put the Sundog through it's paces. I thought if I pulled those from outside sources the tests would not only be unbiased but be things that as GM and designer wouldn't inadvertantly skew one way or the other.

If anyone takes up the challenge I look forward to what you come up with. I'll start a new topic for those missions. Please post them there.

 

[far-trader]

Looks good the quick read I took. Just wonder if you could post the descriptions for the numbered areas for the deckplans here too. Thanks.