Supplement 4 - Citizens of the Imperium ala Book 1

[ffilz]

I started working on re-working the Supplement 4 career skill tables to be more compatible with Book 1 characters in only introducing new skills when they are critical to the flavor of the career.

I am grappling with some of the careers though.

Diplomat is heavily dependent on Liaison and Carousing, but I don't want to introduce those skills. The answer might just be to not use the Diplomat career.

The Bureaucrat career obviously should grant Admin skill, but as presented, I feel will likely grant Admin 3 or higher way too easily. I could reduce the charts to one instance of Admin in each table which would tone it down, but then the question becomes what skills to replace all those Admin instances with.

I talked myself out of a similar issue with Doctor by re-reading the skill in Book 1. As written, the primary uses DO NOT give a +1 DM per level or anything like that, so Medic-3 is about the most that is useful. Enter the idea of adding xeno-medicine and suddenly 6 rolls of Medic doesn't break anything, now the guy's a Doctor for a 2nd species. One might also allow other specialties, or maybe we can allow specialties including other species to just take 1 skill level. Also, I don't have a problem with the Doctor career being a good way to get a Medic-3 for your ship with just a 1 or 2 term character..

Rogue and Scientist also need some work.

I may have other issues with some of the careers, but this goes a long way towards them being usable in my theoretical campaign.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kS3h7JgF6CniH851034zBX0aPT-MhIggUO0yE_y0Jao/edit?usp=sharing

p.s. if you would like to comment directly in the document and I'll give you access (or you can request it via Google Docs.

 

[atpollard]

I see the skills of Liaison, Carousing and Streetwise as being interrelated (similar to Pilot/Ship's Boat) where it is an essentially overlapping collection of abilities that apply to different groups/settings.

Liaison is more formal (business/diplomatic settings)
Carousing is more informal social settings (parties/clubs)
Streetwise is more Law Enforcement or Criminal.

I simply lump them into a cascade and use them interchangeably at skill-1 for each other. If you really wanted to scale S4 back to LBB1, then just use Streetwise and allow it for less unsavory occasions as well.

 

[ffilz]

Yea, replacing Carousing with Streetwise is a possibility. On the other hand, it takes a skill that was limited to Merchants and Other in Book 1 and distributes it to a lot of the new careers.

I actually have an issue with how much Jack of all Trades is granted also. In Book 1, the Army, Marines, and Merchant did not get it, yet Sailor and Flyer do? In fact, Pirate, Doctor, and Hunter are the only careers that don't get Jack of all Trades.

Clearly part of the problem is trying to use just a very small skill list (Supplement 4 doesn't really add THAT many new skills) to distinguish a large number of careers.

In the end, I may just choose to leave out some of the careers, dunno, still working through things.

 

[robject]

Tough call - keeping the skills list low.

 

[Whipsnade]

I see the skills of Liaison, Carousing and Streetwise as being interrelated (similar to Pilot/Ship's Boat) where it is an essentially overlapping collection of abilities that apply to different groups/settings.

That's somewhat how I've always seem them. I view Liaison and Streetwise as covering different ends of the SOC spectrum while also somewhat overlapping. I also treated Carousing as being somewhat dependent on SOC too; carousing at SOC 1 involves different behavior than carousing at SOC A.

Liaison is more formal (business/diplomatic settings)
Carousing is more informal social settings (parties/clubs)
Streetwise is more Law Enforcement or Criminal.

I can't disagree with that. I will say my use of those skills was more "condition-dependent" than formulaic and I strongly suspect your use is too.

I simply lump them into a cascade and use them interchangeably at skill-1 for each other. If you really wanted to scale S4 back to LBB1, then just use Streetwise and allow it for less unsavory occasions as well.

Cascades are always difficult. While I've no problem, for example, with cascades for pistols, cascades for attributes like social skills should be more nuanced. It's more a difference of degree than kind.

Dropping the two post-LBB:1 additions and "inflating" Streewise is a good idea. I'd go one step further and rename the "inflated" Streetwise to get the point across. Call it something like Savvy or Savoir Fair and link it to SOC.

In a recent thread I was surprised to read that nearly everyone else treated the SOC stat as a cumulative one. That is that each additional level of SOC encompasses and includes the previous levels. For example, a STR of A includes STRs of 1, 2, 3, 4, and so forth. Ditto DEX, END, INT, and EDU.

I've always treated SOC as the odd man out, however. In my thinking, a SOC of A does not include the knowledge, behavior, attitudes, etc. of SOC 1, 2, 3, and so forth.

Because I differentiated SOC in that manner, I used it as a controlling stat in many social and/or interpersonal situations.

 

[kilemall]

I'm with you Whip on SOC. I literally don't understand their perspective or how that maps to any reality, RL literary or game.

OP, I went the other way, expanding the LBB4/LBB5 skills so LBB1/S4 characters can get appropriate ones. Did that by introducing another Advanced Education type table, Advanced Service, governed by INT 8+.

Here is my take on the question. While LBB6-7 are usually considered inferior to LBB4-5, there are some lovely skills in there, and so while I am at it, I've put in the chance for those skills to be acquired as well, most importantly for Scouts and Merchants who would be neglected otherwise.

The intelligence requirement means a lot of these skills are rarely picked up, but gives an opportunity to the intelligent but undereducated (and another incentive to increase characteristics).

While I was at it, I went through and gave a table to all the CotI careers too. For some they are picking up LBB1 skills that they otherwise would miss. I tried to pick skills that enhanced their role- in some cases they are counter-intuitive such as the Pirate admin skill, but would be the sort of specialty that would be that much more valuable when it rarely occurs.

I also did a pass with Gambling, mostly to give unranked and rich cash table careers an opportunity to pick up that skill and get better cash results without retiring. It seemed particularly perverse to me that Scouts could not get result 7 on their cash table, or that Rogues did not have Gambling.

Speaking of which, CotI has the additional rule of getting +1 on the cash table if retired- if you retro that rule into the original 6 careers, then I'd eliminate Scout Gambling for Ship Tactics.

NOTE: Marines and Army can substitute FA Gunnery and Heavy Weapons for any Gun Combat skill result (but not mustering out equipment).

Advanced Service Table (Int 8+ only)


Navy
1. Instruction
2. Communications
3. Naval Architect
4. Fleet Tactics
5. Liaison
6. Ship Tactics

Marines
1. Battle Dress
2. Demolitions
3. Interrogation
4. Recon
5. Survival
6. Zero-G Combat

Army
1. Combat Engineering
2. Instruction
3. Interrogation
4. Recon
5. Recruiting
6. Survival

Scout
1. Equestrian
2. Survey
3. Survival
4. Gambling (Ship Tactics)
5. Liaison
6. Communications

Merchant
1. Broker
2. Legal
3. Liaison
4. Trader
5. Carousing
6. Zero-G Combat

Other
1. Admin
2. Carousing
3. Interrogation
4. Prospecting
5. Recruiting
6. Tactics

Pirate
1. Broker
2. Legal
3. Heavy Weapons
4. Trader
5. Carousing
6. Zero-G Combat

Belter
1. Gunnery
2. Demolitions
3. Survey
4. Gambling
5. Tactics
6. Zero-G Combat

Sailor
1. Carousing
2. Communications
3. Tactics
4. Interrogation
5. Survey
6. Leader


Diplomat
1. Legal
2. Bribery
3. Equestrian
4. Recon
5. Communications
6. Brawling

Doctor
1. Carousing
2. Leader
3. Interrogation
4. Survival
5. Jack-O-T
6. Gun Combat

Flyer
1. Recruiting
2. Heavy Weapons
3. Survival
4. Recon
5. Forward Observer
6. Tactics


Barbarian
1. Small Water Craft
2. Admin
3. +1 Educ
4. Navigation
5. Hunting
6. Prospecting

Bureaucrat
1. Electronics
2. Computer
3. Forgery
4. Bribery
5. Broker
6. Legal

Rogue
1. Gambling
2. Electronics
3. Trader
4. Interrogation
5. Recon
6. Survival


Noble
1. Gambling
2. Legal
3. Interrogation
4. Trader
5. Recruiting
6. Air Craft/Water Craft


Scientist
1. Gambling
2. Air Craft/Water Craft
3. Interrogation
4. Survey
5. Instruction
6. Prospecting

Hunter
1. Bribery
2. Gambling
3. Recon
4. Brawling
5. Air Craft/Water Craft
6. Tactics

 

[McPerth]

I see the skills of Liaison, Carousing and Streetwise as being interrelated (similar to Pilot/Ship's Boat) where it is an essentially overlapping collection of abilities that apply to different groups/settings.

According LBB6 description, Liaison can be used as both, Admin (not Carousing) and Streetwise at -1 to skill

Liaison is more formal (business/diplomatic settings)
Carousing is more informal social settings (parties/clubs)
Streetwise is more Law Enforcement or Criminal.

As I see those skills (and adding Admin to the list for completness sake):

• Liaison: formal diplomatic training. Used on relations with either subordinates or foreign cultures (ITTR Reading somewhere its the civilian equivalent to Leader)
• Admin: formal legal training. Used in legal/lew enforcement relations.
• Carousing: informal relations training in more or less formal ocasions (as parties, as you said). Equivalent to savoir-faire or ettiquete. (remember it can be used as Steward at -1)
• Streetwise: used in most Street situations, from finding an adress to dealing with people in the Street. Equivalent to survival in urban environment (remember Survival skill's full name is Wilderness Survival).

I simply lump them into a cascade and use them interchangeably at skill-1 for each other. If you really wanted to scale S4 back to LBB1, then just use Streetwise and allow it for less unsavory occasions as well.

Fully agreed on using it as a cascade skill, but, in CT/MT, this means you can choose among the affected skills (as Space skill), not that it is usable as both of them (as Cbt Rifleman skill).

 

[RandyB]

As I see those skills (and adding Admin to the list for completeness sake):

• Liaison: formal diplomatic training. Used on relations with either subordinates or foreign cultures (ITTR Reading somewhere its the civilian equivalent to Leader)
• Admin: formal legal training. Used in legal/law enforcement relations.
• Carousing: informal relations training in more or less formal occasions (as parties, as you said). Equivalent to savoir-faire or etiquette. (remember it can be used as Steward at -1)
• Streetwise: used in most Street situations, from finding an address to dealing with people in the Street. Equivalent to survival in urban environment (remember Survival skill's full name is Wilderness Survival).

I see Admin as also the bureaucratic skill of dealing with hierarchical organizations - businesses, military staffs, governmental offices, etc.

 

[McPerth]

I see Admin as also the bureaucratic skill of dealing with hierarchical organizations - businesses, military staffs, governmental offices, etc.

Well, in CT LBB1 Admin skill is described as for treating with bureaucratic agencies, while Liaison to treat with individuals, specifically with "members of a military unit, citizens in a community and with alien or foreign cultures".

There's a huge overlap on those definitions (I guess that's the reasoning for Liaison to be usable as Admin, albeit at -1).

To give you an example, to deal with a Major of a local military unit:

• Befirending him at a party: Carousing
• Obtaining a contract (e.g. maintenance or catering) with his unit: Liaison
• Making this same contract's`papers (or denouncing it): Admin (or Legal, if using LBB7's skills)
• Looking for him while he's on R&R in the downtown: Streetwise

 

[ffilz]

Sigh... I was hoping for discussion about not pulling in skills from later supplements left and right...

 

[McPerth]

Sigh... I was hoping for discussion about not pulling in skills from later supplements left and right...

Well, your question about how to treat Liaison without adding the skill, I'd advise you to treat as a cascade (as Atpollard suggested), leting the player choose among Streetwise or Admin.

 

[Jame]

Tough call - keeping the skills list low.

What I do is have a house rule that you can switch certain skills for certain others that are related. You can ALSO switch any skill foŕ any other, once per skill.

 

[ffilz]

Well, your question about how to treat Liaison without adding the skill, I'd advise you to treat as a cascade (as Atpollard suggested), leting the player choose among Streetwise or Admin.

Atpollard at least tried to engage the questions I'm asking. Others have taken off in a wild different direction...

And what you suggest right here is even a bit different, replace Liaison in the table with choice of Streetwise or Admin is more palatable than how I read Atpollard's idea (where having one of the three skills is usable as level 1 of the other two).

My desire though is to leave Vehicle (and it's more specific varieties), Gun Combat, Blade Combat, and Bow Combat as the only skills where you pick from a list. So replacing Liaison with Admin OR Streetwise in each slot may make sense, on the other hand, I want to be very careful of how many and which skills have more than one instance on any given d6 table. Having one instance each on 2 or more tables means it will be a common skill, but still keeps the final skill level modest, 2 or 3 instances on a given table start to make it too easy to get level 3, 4, or even higher.

Frank

 

[ffilz]

What I do is have a house rule that you can switch certain skills for certain others that are related. You can ALSO switch any skill foŕ any other, once per skill.

Not quite sure what you're suggesting here? Are you trying to allow more skill diversity given 4 tables of 6 entries each?

I'm not trying to fit more different skills into the 4 tables, I'm trying to expand the career choices from the six in Book 1 without introducing gobs of new skills, I'm choosing to start from Supplement 4 - Citizens of the Imperium, and at least the Hunter and Prospecting skills added seem worth adding to make Belters and Hunters interesting careers. But most of the other skills I don't want to add.

I might add a skill for Diplomats, but it has to be more specific to the Diplomat career so I don't have to answer questions why Navy, Scouts, or Merchants don't get the new skill.

I can make those explanations for Prospecting and Hunter.

Liaison as written, I can't make that explanation for...

Frank

 

[McPerth]

Atpollard at least tried to engage the questions I'm asking. Others have taken off in a wild different direction...

And what you suggest right here is even a bit different, replace Liaison in the table with choice of Streetwise or Admin is more palatable than how I read Atpollard's idea (where having one of the three skills is usable as level 1 of the other two).

Yes and no. Atpollard suggested treating it as a cascade skill (as are vehicle or gun combat), but described it as included skills (as is Combat Rifleman)

He also talked about Carousing where the oficial skill description talks about Admin. That's why I brought the skills descriptions to bear, while at once answereing you too:

Fully agreed on using it as a cascade skill, but, in CT/MT, this means you can choose among the affected skills (as Space skill), not that it is usable as both of them (as Cbt Rifleman skill).

And, in any case, please, remember: [M;]some tread derive is aceptable in this board[/m;]

 

[ffilz]

Yes and no. Atpollard suggested treating it as a cascade skill (as are vehicle or gun combat), but described it as included skills (as is Combat Rifleman)

He also talked about Carousing where the oficial skill description talks about Admin. That's why I brought the skills descriptions to bear, while at once answereing you too:

Got it. It's been so long since I've been deep in the terminology of cascade and included skills, and my desire to keep close to Book 1 leads me to not really talk in those terms.

But to use those terms... I don't want included skills (I'm not even using Combat Rifleman, though I considered it for a bit), and want to limit cascade skills to vehicle and weapon skills.

And, in any case, please, remember: [M;]some tread derive is aceptable in this board[/m;]

Sure, but I hope it's also ok to express frustration that the conversation seemed headed way away from my original question...

Frank

 

[flykiller]

Liaison as written, I can't make that explanation for...

liaison is not streetwise or leader or carousing. it's about facilitating cooperation between disparate people and interests and organizations.

 

[kilemall]

If you must, use the skill leader in lieu of liaison. Leaders have to motivate, persuade and get people going in the same direction. Just expand it a bit for wheedling functions.

And I'm NEVER going to apologize for going somewhere the OP didn't want to go. It's not just the OP that may read a thread, another player may read and see a different direction to go in. It just doesn't need to be ground in or obnoxiously intrusive/insulting/disruptive.

 

[ffilz]

liaison is not streetwise or leader or carousing. it's about facilitating cooperation between disparate people and interests and organizations.

The RAW for Liaison allows it's use in place of Streetwise or Admin at one level lower per Book 5. That's the angle I wanted to stay away from. And if Diplomats get a new skill, I want it to be something that doesn't sound like other careers (particularly Book 1 careers) should get.

One key point is I don't want to modify the Book 1 careers, and I don't want to make them seem inferior. I have grown to dislike the supplement arms race where each new supplement adds something new and cool that you MUST have and characters created with the old rules seem stale and undesirable.

 

[flykiller]

The RAW for Liaison allows it's use in place of Streetwise or Admin at one level lower per Book 5.

liaison may help a character be a go-between for streetgangs or bureaucracies, but it will not help with a streetgang or bureaucracy. say you want to get out of a traffic ticket or a mob shakedown - liaison will not help in the slightest. but if you're trying to coordinate a mob and the local police as they work against a common threat terrorist element, then liaison is what you need.

One key point is I don't want to modify the Book 1 careers, and I don't want to make them seem inferior.

inferior? good heavens, medic-3 is described as being a full-on doctor. and electronics is described as being "skilled in all sorts of electrical equipment" - sensor systems, microwaves, city-wide power distribution systems, radios, tasers, you name it. if you just stick with that enormously expansive definition of "skill", then you'll never need another.

characters created with the old rules seem stale and undesirable.

the game is what matters.