CT Only: Supplement 7 Express Boat Tender

[snrdg082102]

Evening all,

I have run the express boat tender through both Book 2 1977 1st edition and 1981 2nd edition.

Book 2 1977 1st edition the main issue is using the standard hull types table the main compartment exceeds the allotted 835 tons by 51 tons and the engineering section has 80 tons of excess space. At this point the express boat tender is built on a custom hull.

Book 2 1981 2nd edition using the standard hull types table the main compartment has 9 tons of free space and the engineering section has 110 tons of free space.

On the CT Errata Compendium page I asked for help in trying to figure how the tender's ship/vehicle bay that has a external height of 12 meters can fit an express boat that is 12 meters at its widest point.

As usual my cost does not match with or without including the turrets.

Looking at the turret deck plan I get the impress that they mount a single weapon. While the single pop-up turret and the two turrets on tracks are standard for the tender they are not, in my opinion, going to cost the same as the ones detailed in Book 2.

To make matters a bit more complex I think that the pop-up turret has a different MCr than the two turrets attached to tracks.

Does anyone have an idea how the turrets' MCr?

 

[snrdg082102]

Update 1

Hello all,

Per the express boat tender background material on Supplement 7 page 11 and the deck plan for the vehicle bay on page 12 four express boats can fit into a space 40 meters long x 28.5 meters x 12 meters high.

I used AutoRealm to create deck plans using the scale of one square equaling 1.5 meters stipulated in the Starship Deck Plans section on Supplement 7 page 5 and in the Express data box on page 9.

I was only able to fit three express boats into the space as described in the background material.

My first attempt has two side by side on the left right side of the bay facing in one direction and the last one has the bridge facing the engine room and the stern centered between the stern of the first two.

The next attempt had the three with their bridges facing into the express boat tender's curved sides of the bay.

My final attempt was trying to fit them into the bay at angle.

The fourth express boat just doesn't fit in the forty meter bay, however extending the bay to 51 meters allows four to be carried.

The simplest solution is to change the background material of four express boats to three express boat.

The only other issue is that the express tender's height from the outside of the ship/vehicle bay doors to the top of the external is 12 meters.

Adjusting the tender's external height to 13 meters would allow a clearance 0.5 meters above the inside of the closed bay doors and below the ceiling allowing the running of piping and conduits through the compartment.

The two scout/couriers can fit into the bay if one is facing the bridge and the other is facing the cargo and engineering spaces in the forty foot bay as described in the background material.

 

[HG_B]

I found an interesting 3D of a Tender here: http://www.pinterest.com/pin/126593439499152449/

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening HG_B

I found an interesting 3D of a Tender here: http://www.pinterest.com/pin/126593439499152449/

Thank you for the link to a really interesting site.

Not being a member of the site I was not able to get a good look at the vehicle bay. However, from what I can see I'm not sure that two scout/couriers could be carried in place of the four express boats.

The hull shape appears to be different from that in Supplement 7.

I'll see what it takes to get more access later.

Thank you again.

 

[HG_B]

Evening HG_B



Thank you for the link to a really interesting site.

Not being a member of the site I was not able to get a good look at the vehicle bay. However, from what I can see I'm not sure that two scout/couriers could be carried in place of the four express boats.

The hull shape appears to be different from that in Supplement 7.

I'll see what it takes to get more access later.

Thank you again.

Not member either. I searched for images on x-boat tender because I remember seeing a 3D mock up showing 4 'Boats fitted into a tender a number of years ago. If my memory serves, it was the same model but a different image than what I linked. Maybe it was the Type S's I saw. They were fitted in facing opposite direction...

 

[Patron Zero]

Seeker Games published a set of deckplans that included the 100Ton Scout-Courier, the 100Ton X-boat and the 1000Ton Express Boat Tender back in the 1980s. Their deck layouts were essentially the same as what was presented in GDW's classic, Supplement 7 Traders & Gunboats.

There were also deckplans published in a MegaTraveller supplement (MT: The Early Adventures - Digest Group Publications) that did show an interior configuration allowing for four (4) separate x-boats to be berthed.

The Express Boat Tender was also presented by Steve Jackson Games in GURPS Traveller:First In but did not include a side-profile view as did MT:The Early Adventures.

In ComStar Games 1248 Starships 2-Scout Ships, there was a 1000Ton tender that could berth five (5) Scout-Couriers of that era's design.

Hopes that's of some assistance.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again HG_B

Not member either. I searched for images on x-boat tender because I remember seeing a 3D mock up showing 4 'Boats fitted into a tender a number of years ago. If my memory serves, it was the same model but a different image than what I linked. Maybe it was the Type S's I saw. They were fitted in facing opposite direction...

I'm really glad that you did remember the mockup, unfortunately the link from printerest.com returns the Page Cannot be Found error.

I did locate the file here in the files of COTI www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/attachment.php?attachmentid=869&d=1336272187

What I've seen of the deck plans makes me think that this model of express boat tender can maintain only two express boats.

The highest point on a scout/courier (Type S) is 7.5 meters and the widest point is 24 meters. In Supplement 7 the ship/vehicle bay is forty meters long x 28.5 meters wide x 12 meters high. Based on the dimensions I would place the Type S in the configuration you described here.

Thank you again for the link.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Patron Zero,

Thank you for the information about the other publishers who have produced deck plans for the express boat, express boat tender, and/or scout/courier.

Seeker Games published a set of deckplans that included the 100Ton Scout-Courier, the 100Ton X-boat and the 1000Ton Express Boat Tender back in the 1980s. Their deck layouts were essentially the same as what was presented in GDW's classic, Supplement 7 Traders & Gunboats.

There were also deckplans published in a MegaTraveller supplement (MT: The Early Adventures - Digest Group Publications) that did show an interior configuration allowing for four (4) separate x-boats to be berthed.

I do not recall having these in my collection, which means my wish list has once again grown.

The Express Boat Tender was also presented by Steve Jackson Games in GURPS Traveller:First In but did not include a side-profile view as did MT:The Early Adventures.

I've got the 1999 1st printing of this book. Pages 42 and 43 actually has a very small profile view of the tender. On page 42 the bridge, cargo deck, and vehicle decks are shown with a silhouette showing the deck in white and the rest of the ship is black. At the top of page 43 is the outline of the tender with each deck labeled, unfortunately the labels for the vehicle deck and cargo deck have been swapped. Page 138 is an inset drawing of an express boat either docking or undocking from the tender.

In ComStar Games 1248 Starships 2-Scout Ships, there was a 1000Ton tender that could berth five (5) Scout-Couriers of that era's design.

Hopes that's of some assistance.

Now I have three deck plans to add to the wish list, thank you for the information.

In CT the tender's vehicle bay is 40 meters long, 28.5 meters wide, and a deck height of 12 meters.

In my AutoRealm drawing one express boat is 22 meters long and 12 meters at the hull's widest point. Two express boats can be easily moored side by side in the bay with their bridges facing in the same direction. A third express boat can be moored in the center of bay facing the opposite direction of the other two boats.

Another method of mooring three express boats in the 40 meter long x 28.5 wide space is to face the express boat at ninety degrees of the bulkhead into the cargo bay. Three express boat's each 12 meters in width take up 26 meters of the 40 meter space.

Thank you for your help

 

[Patron Zero]

I had made reference to the side profile view in a different thread concerning Express Boat Stations, the source of the original image is from the DGP MT:The Early Years publication mentioned previously. MT:The Early Years is a compilation of DGP's Travellers' Digest Issues 1-4.

From that internal configuration one might suspect that four (4) separate express boats might be so stowed but likely in a 'transport' mode rather than being serviced.

 

[HG_B]

I had made reference to the side profile view in a different thread concerning Express Boat Stations, the source of the original image is from the DGP MT:The Early Years publication mentioned previously. MT:The Early Years is a compilation of DGP's Travellers' Digest Issues 1-4.

Yes! That is one I was thinking of. Having Oldzheimer's sucks.

 

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon PDT HG_B and Patron Zero,

Thank you both for the deck plans on the express boat tender you've shared.

Have either of you had a chance to review the deck plan here in the COTI files?

Patron Zero what is the scale of the DPG MT deck plan in post 9?

In theory the express boat shown on the DPG MT deck plan is 22 meters long and per the CT details, don't know about DPG MT, the observation platform is at the 20 meter point of the bays forty meter length. Looking at the deck plan in Post 9, and not knowing the scale, I'm guessing that about 1 meter of each express boat's stern extends past the observation platform. If I'm close the bay appears to 42 meters long and not the 40 meters from the express boat tender's description.

In AutoRealm I've changed the scale of my plans from one square = 1.5 meters to 1 meter.

Even with the change in scale my best effort for the 40 meter long by 28.5 meter wide ship/vehicle bay is three express boats.

Without changing the plan I placed the first express boat 0.5 meters from the bay's forward bulkhead and 0.5 meters off the observation platform. The next express boat was placed 0.5 meters behind the first one and the last 5 meters ended inside the fuel tanks. Adding 0.5 meters puts the bay length at 45.5 meters.

I'm in the process of re-drawing Type S layout so I'm still not sure if two can fit in the bay.

I was able to put two scout-courier's into the express boat tender's ship/vehicle bay without any problems using the scale of one square = 1 meter.

 

[Patron Zero]

To the best of my knowing, the DGP layouts use a different scale than as seen in GDW or FASA plans, that seems to be 1.0M per square. The best 'reference' might be the figure silhouette seen in the right-side Tender above the maintenance bay-below the command deck.

That said, the text of the adventure states the interior bay width as 12M and 40M in height.

One 'guestiment' you might try is measuring the X-boats in the bay and applying those figures to the 'accepted' dimensions of such to establish the scale in the drawings.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=1738

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Patron Zero,

Thank you for the reply and suggestions on how to estimate or guesstimate the size of the vehicle/ship bay.

To the best of my knowing, the DGP layouts use a different scale than as seen in GDW or FASA plans, that seems to be 1.0M per square. The best 'reference' might be the figure silhouette seen in the right-side Tender above the maintenance bay-below the command deck.

MT Starship Operator's Manual (SOM) Volume I and MT Alien Volume I Vilani and Vargr (V&V), two of the four DGP products in my MT collection, have deck plans which list the scale as one square equals 1.5 m³. Each on has a figure of a typical human (SOM) and Vargr (V&V).

That said, the text of the adventure states the interior bay width as 12M and 40M in height.

The DGP MT: The Early Years publication seems to have left out one of the bay's dimensions which CT Supplement 7 pages 11 and 12 has as being 28.5 meters. Here are the dimensions from CT:

Supplement 7 page 11 Interior details "The most striking detail for the express boat tender is the ship bay. It measures 40 meters by 28.5 meters by 12 meters; this twelve meter dimension can be extended to 24 meters through the simple expedient of leaving the ship bay doors open."

Supplement 7 page 12 the diagram/deck plan of the Vehicle Bay has the following annotations:

Observation Platform (20 meters up)
40 meter ceiling
Maximum Capacity: 28.5 meter width, 12 meter height (24 meters if door remains open), 40 meter length.

Supplement 7 page 13 in the first box at the top of the page Dimensions: 60m long, 30m wide, 12m high.

In CT Supplement 7 there are five deck plans on the left hand side has two filled in squares which the deck plan symbols on page 6 identify as lift shafts tucked into the curve of the hull. Counting the full squares across the widest part of the diagram I get 20 squares with each square equal to 1.5 meters for a total of 30 meters.

With the lift shaft tucked into the curve of the left side of the hull each 30 meter section is reduced to 28.5 meters, with the exception of the ship/vehicle bay which has the observation platform. The diagram appears to show that the platform extends another 1.5 meters into the bay at the 20 meter mark of the 40 meters and spans approximately 9.75 or 10.5 meters of the space. If my math is right the ship/vehicle bay at the 20 meter mark is down to 27 meters from the edge to the observation platform to the opposite side of the bay.

One 'guestiment' you might try is measuring the X-boats in the bay and applying those figures to the 'accepted' dimensions of such to establish the scale in the drawings.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=1738

Oops, I thought I had submitted the reply instead I got distracted with adding the view from the deck plan from the above gallery location to my AutRealm drawing of the express boat tender. Next is to trying getting four express boats and two scout/couriers into the bay.

So far with the ship/vehicle section bay doors closed my best is three express boats. Hopefully when I done I'll feel my work is adequate to share and figure away to upload the diagrams to the COTI downloads/file section.

 

[Patron Zero]

Glad to be of help as there is so much material for Traveller out there and some of it has become more difficult to locate than others.

As to Scout-Couriers, unsure if you might be able to berth such inside the 'standard' Tender layout as such seems to be more dedicated to express boats than much else.

That said, perhaps you might have 'deployable' garages for maintenance and repair of said ships without a sardine-like squeeze into the existing workspace as they are.

A tender could open the large bay doors and extend an over-sized sort of boarding passage, think of that as say beams or framework sliding out and having a pressure-capable 'curtain' then to follow such. Would not be a real engineering feat to have a sort of 'collapsible' hard-box that could unfold and deploy for the same purpose.

A standard tender could have one bay area specifically outfitted in such fashion for the servicing of Scout-Couriers and still be capable of proving support for express boats in the other.

My only 'gripe' is accurately described as such, with the design of tenders of this design is not having the capacity to operate as a small-scale dry-dock beyond the confines of the interior bays it possesses. The addition of deployable work-arms, if nothing more than such used for securing a vessel outside the tender's hull, would maximize the vessel's ability to effect repairs that could be done in a vacuum setting.

My re-think of a tender would be more of it as a multi-bladed, multi-tooled Swiss Army knife, very compact but having several of it's best resources tucked away until needed.

 

[snrdg082102]

Late afternoon PDT Patron Zero,

Glad to be of help as there is so much material for Traveller out there and some of it has become more difficult to locate than others.

Hopefully, I'll be able to return some of the help in the future.

As to Scout-Couriers, unsure if you might be able to berth such inside the 'standard' Tender layout as such seems to be more dedicated to express boats than much else.

Going by CT the express boat tender can supposedly carry two scout/couriers instead of whatever number of express boats. Per Supplement 7 page 17 the dimensions of a scout/courier are 37.5 meters long x 24 meters wide x 7.5 meters high. The documented tender's ship/vehicle dimensions of 40 meters x 28.5 meters x 12 meters can fit one scout/courier. Until I discovered an error in my diagram which didn't match the width of 24 meters or height of 7.5 meters I thought two would fit. With my error discovered I'll have to recheck. Darn computer gremlins got me again.

That said, perhaps you might have 'deployable' garages for maintenance and repair of said ships without a sardine-like squeeze into the existing workspace as they are.

A tender could open the large bay doors and extend an over-sized sort of boarding passage, think of that as say beams or framework sliding out and having a pressure-capable 'curtain' then to follow such. Would not be a real engineering feat to have a sort of 'collapsible' hard-box that could unfold and deploy for the same purpose.

A standard tender could have one bay area specifically outfitted in such fashion for the servicing of Scout-Couriers and still be capable of proving support for express boats in the other.

My only 'gripe' is accurately described as such, with the design of tenders of this design is not having the capacity to operate as a small-scale dry-dock beyond the confines of the interior bays it possesses. The addition of deployable work-arms, if nothing more than such used for securing a vessel outside the tender's hull, would maximize the vessel's ability to effect repairs that could be done in a vacuum setting.

My re-think of a tender would be more of it as a multi-bladed, multi-tooled Swiss Army knife, very compact but having several of it's best resources tucked away until needed.

From my reading of the details in Supplement 7 the basic idea of the tender was to exchange mail, perform intermediate maintenance/repairs, refuel, and swap out the express boat and/or scout/courier crews close to 100D limit. Another tasking was to retrieve x-boats and/or scout/couriers that missed jumped. If need be the tender can deliver the ship's.

Overall I think the express boat tender's designer did a good job, unfortunately back in 1980 a lot of people where using calculators, pencils, papers, rulers, and erasers to bring their ideas to life. Not to mention a deadline so the time was not there to make sure all the pieces fit. Heck, I'm having problems with trying to draw the plans using AutoRealm.

All the items you suggest appear to me to be possible solutions.

Thank you again for the help.

 

[snrdg082102]

Express Boat Tender Update 10/24/14

Morning PDT all,

After several reworks I think the drawings I made in AutoRealm for the express boat, express boat tender, and scout/courier are finally correct in scale.

My efforts resulted in getting three express boats and only one scout/courier into the tender's ship/vehicle bay with the bay doors closed.

With the bay doors open two scout/couriers can easily fit in the twenty-four meter space. To fit four x-boats in the 24 meters two inside the bay and two tethered between the doors is in my opinion the easiest approach.

 

[inexorabletash]

Maybe I'm dense, but...

(It's actually roomier than that, since the observation platform is only at the 20m mark, and the corners shouldn't be rounded. But I was in a rush and just "stretched" the deck plan.)

So... what am I missing?

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening inexorabletash,

Maybe I'm dense, but...

(It's actually roomier than that, since the observation platform is only at the 20m mark, and the corners shouldn't be rounded. But I was in a rush and just "stretched" the deck plan.)

So... what am I missing?

Nope you where neither dense or missing anything, I on the other hand was not able to figure out the arrangement. Thank you for the illustration, was I was able to duplicate in my drawings.

I also did a created a copy of the drawing Patron Zero provided in this threads Post 9.

Thank you for setting me straight and if you have another urge to whip up a drawing could that one be for stuffing two Type S into the ship/vehicle bay please.

 

[inexorabletash]

stuffing two Type S into the ship/vehicle bay please.

Assuming a wedge-shaped Type S that conforms to the description (and makes the actual deck plans nonsensical, of course)...

I originally didn't have the ships rotated in the "plan" (overhead) view. The side view shows that even if you don't offset the ships they can stack directly above each other, although you're probably going to bump turrets if you try that. But there's enough room to rotate the ships, since they're not quite triangular, and if you do that it becomes... quite roomy - nearly all of the exterior hulls would be accessible for inspection and repairs.

 

[rancke]

Maybe I'm dense, but...

What's the volume of the bay? That is, how much waste space is there?


Hans