Survey Cruiser/tender Ideas and discussion

[wbyrd]

I am working on a series of ships for a scout/survey branch. what I am currently working on is a *k ton Survey cruiser. Using the designation Cruiser due to it's role as an independent operating vessel leading and supporting a survey operation.

I ad planned it to operate more as a central hub for several of the Survey corvettes I have worked up ( in rough) Acting as a tender and heavy escort for those ships.

Since each corvette has a large section of it's tonnage set aside for labs and such, I was planning to have it more for support. Fewer labs, but a lot of storage, repair hangers, and extra small craft. including a construction bay, and hanger for at least one 400 ton corvette so it can perform in field repairs, and install/fabricate modules on corvettes as needs change.

I thought I'd get some ideas and feedback before i actually stated the build. Range, thrust, and armaments would be secondary, since it's not a combat ship..only acting in a self/group defense role if attacked by small units..the entire group would jump away if a sizable hostile force showed up.

I wanted to focus on what would be the absolute minimum facilities, and special hardware people thought a Ship like this would need.

what I have in mind
Hanger for 400 ton corvette
construction Deck for up to 30 ton modules/vehicles.
Hangers for spare small craft. ranging from 10 to 50 tons.
Large medical bay. 20 patients standard/40 if they double bunk patients.

It would support a group of ships consisting of
4 Survey corvettes
6 100 ton scouts
2 Armed Survey escorts
1 SAR Ship
2 cargo ships
1 tanker/fuel processor

the entire mission would be to conduct top to bottom surveys of poorly charted systems, support scientific/archaeological operations. And hazard charting operations.

If possible it would position itself in a central system with several systems withing short hops via jump, and deploy it's assigned vessels to specific operations.

Another mission would be to act as a mobile hub for various SAR, medical/technical assistance operations in regions where there are several small colonies/world that have no independent facilities..

usually short term operations in the event worlds in that are are experiencing unusually difficult situations. Or local Scout bases and Fleet detachments, need an extra set of hand/eyes/ears.Usually they would rotate to a new assignment after several months, to a year on station.

 

[Matt123]

Your proposal seems fairly well thought through. I will suggest three further items for consideration; improving time on task, acting as a staging point for surface missions and allowing for diplomatic activity.

Regards time on task, the outline puts that assignments are likely to be rotated every 4-12 months and I would suspect this would be co-ordinated around the crafts maintenance schedule which would involve a period in transit. Equally there cannot be an assumption that the new assignment is close. In both cases, time spent in transit is time not on task. I will suggest an operational range of J4. This also provides ample refuelling facilities for its charges whilst on station. It also means the tanker/fuel processor becomes less critical and the cruiser may be refuelled by small craft.

This range and capacity for carrying a corvette will also allow the cruiser limited scope to courier survey corvettes into position, with the goal of increasing the corvettes time on task.

The workshops on board the cruiser, might be upgraded to allow on-station maintenance of the corvettes to keep them in the field. I'm not sure how you might reflect this in the cruiser design, my first instinct would be to increase the hanger space, perhaps doubling it, allowing room for maintenance on one vessel or the transport of two.

Crew rotations between the surveys home base and the cruiser, can be accomplished through the two cargo ships and Scout ships.

Size wise, I would suspect the cruiser to be around the 4-5kton range. Armaments, perhaps two missile bays plus a handful of turret weapons to dissuade casual aggression. Maximum computer size for both its combat bonus and its scientific application. Auditorium and meeting rooms to facilitate the scientific community hosted on board the cruiser and corvettes. Facilities for diplomacy intended to impress the locals, including a diplomats airlock, reception, meeting rooms and dining room. Stateroom capacity for crew, scientists and surface missions in transit. Low berths to allow for the emergency accommodation and transport of survey personal (ie: surface missions) in the event of evacuation. Half a dozen 10-20 ton utility craft for ship to ship and ship to surface interactions. Several 50ton modular cutters as workhorses plus capacity for a varied selection of 30ton modules, for example, orbital observation, surface accommodation, mobile labs, ATVs and of course fuel/cargo.

Hmmm, may have gotten carried away... For what its worth, I consider each of the functions suggested as critical given the nature of the crafts remote assignments. Of course YMMV

 

[wbyrd]

I like the way you think..feel free to get carried away any time.

I was thinking
full hanger for corvette = 800 tons...
50 ton max capacity Fabrication deck =100 tons
allowing it to build a cutter if needed, or pull in the modules from corvettes to refit them. which means adding a few 10-20 ton work pods.

smaller ships, and craft could be pulled into the corvette bay to be worked on as well.

Also was thinking of several docking clamps. allowing Corvettes/cargo ships to dock, and add their facilities to the Ships main facilities when it's stationary.

the tonnage and range were close to what I had already decided on, as a rough starting number. So that sort of confirms my rough guess unless someone has more insight.

 

[mike wightman]

I would make the 'cruiser' a dispersed structure/jump frame with lots of modules and carried craft.

It provides the jump range and then the subordinate craft can get by on jump 1 or 2 maximum for in system jumps or emergency rendezvous jump.

 

[wbyrd]

I would make the 'cruiser' a dispersed structure/jump frame with lots of modules and carried craft.

It provides the jump range and then the subordinate craft can get by on jump 1 or 2 maximum for in system jumps or emergency rendezvous jump.

That's an option I hadn't considered.would be tricky for me to model...but hey I like challenges.

It would make sense though. since the cruiser would not need to land for anything but an emergency...and landing it would be classified as a severe emergency.

"Pilot to crew we may experience some minor turbulence, followed by severe turbulence. Most likely ending in bone crushing impact, and a fiery explosions.

Thank you for flying with us..and save me a seat on the evac shuttle."

 

[flykiller]

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=1895

 

[wbyrd]

Okay I took the idea of a distributed hull and ran with it.

The forked end is forward, with the engines to the rear. The bay underneath is for docking, and repairing the smaller ships, as well as a construction deck for assembling, and manufacturing spare parts, spare equipment modules, and even smaller shuttles, and ships boats as needed.The cylinders to the side of the main body are part of the ship, where it houses the bulk of it's facilities.

the ship has facilities for labs, recreation areas, cargo and fuel storage, as well as a command and control deck for the Survey group.

In the sen you see it in transport mode, with two corvettes docked, and one riding in the hanger. This configuration allows it to carry short ranged corvettes along with it as it moves from assignment to assignment.

When travelling in this manner it would carry extra fuel in drop tanks, as well as tap fuel carried by the corvettes, and push it's jump drives to the maximum to maintain its normal jump range.

my desing goals are as follows
Jump 4
Thrust 4
Armor Maxed out

Weapons
turreted lasers, sandcasters, and particle beams
2 missile bays.
toying with ion cannons for self defense..To knock out attacking ships systems making; them vulnerable to missiles, and boarding attempts by ships marine detachment.Or just slow hostiles enough to recover craft, get to jump range and leave.

Small craft carried
10 10 ton work pods
10 10 ton utility craft
5 20 ton ships boats
4 30 ton transport//cargo boats
4 50 ton modular cutters.

internal facilities.
recreation deck
medical center
Command and control deck
science deck with enhanced laboratories
engineering deck, with construction deck for objects up to 50 displacement tons in volume.

Senors and communications gear
Advanced sensor array, with distributed arrays, signal enhancement electronic countermeasures. as ell as a full survey sensor array with drones and remote piloted vehicles.

 

[kilemall]

Personally I would expect most survey cruisers to have some of the thickest armor known to travellers.

They have to operate in distant systems sans support, with unknown and unmapped hazards including rocks and flares, armor would be the low power and maintenance answer to a lot of potential threats.

The top thing would be supplies, fuel conversion and repair capacity.

Some of that may not be in the hull all the time though, but in collapsed/container form, awaiting establishment of a base to deploy and freeing up more space for fuel or supply runs.

 

[wbyrd]

Personally I would expect most survey cruisers to have some of the thickest armor known to travellers.

They have to operate in distant systems sans support, with unknown and unmapped hazards including rocks and flares, armor would be the low power and maintenance answer to a lot of potential threats.

The top thing would be supplies, fuel conversion and repair capacity.

Some of that may not be in the hull all the time though, but in collapsed/container form, awaiting establishment of a base to deploy and freeing up more space for fuel or supply runs.

I plan on maxxing out armor. and have more than a little extra cargo capacity planned for it. part of why i liked the idea of a distributed hull after someone suggested it..easier to strap extra cargo modules to the hull.

so far it's looking like 3500-4500 tons for the main ship, with the engines rated to carry up to 7k.

 

[Patron Zero]

Looks like a well-thought design overall, if I may please allow a few suggestions regarding such.

In the role of a tender refueling is likely one task, might you consider deployable 'booms' allowing smaller craft and related vessels to 'top-off' their tanks much in the fashion of modern in-flight refueling aircraft operate.

Also having a small 'flotilla' of fuel 'harvesters' aboard to support that feature, the 'harvesters' being drones specifically equipped to skim gas giants and return to the tender to off-load their 'pollen-baskets' for processing. Said drones could also deliver fuel to ships away from the immediate vicinity of the tender's support network.

Lastly, the tender's repair bays could increase available workspaces with deployable 'sheds', essentially pressurized sections created when bay doors open and box-frames extend with 'accordian'like' curtains. A given such in operation only when the tender is stationary, while under-way the shed components are stowed in a compact fashion in the workbay or on the outer hull adjacent to such .

 

[wbyrd]

Looks like a well-thought design overall, if I may please allow a few suggestions regarding such.

In the role of a tender refueling is likely one task, might you consider deployable 'booms' allowing smaller craft and related vessels to 'top-off' their tanks much in the fashion of modern in-flight refueling aircraft operate.

Also having a small 'flotilla' of fuel 'harvesters' aboard to support that feature, the 'harvesters' being drones specifically equipped to skim gas giants and return to the tender to off-load their 'pollen-baskets' for processing. Said drones could also deliver fuel to ships away from the immediate vicinity of the tender's support network.

Lastly, the tender's repair bays could increase available workspaces with deployable 'sheds', essentially pressurized sections created when bay doors open and box-frames extend with 'accordian'like' curtains. A given such in operation only when the tender is stationary, while under-way the shed components are stowed in a compact fashion in the workbay or on the outer hull adjacent to such .

hanks for the suggestions: I like the expandable air curtain on te hangers for ore room


The skimmer drone is a good one. I worked up such drones for the Book I did for mongoose...by the time i get this project doped out those should be out

 

[robject]

I would make the 'cruiser' a dispersed structure/jump frame with lots of modules and carried craft.

Greg Lee's Cirque is designed along those lines. 2,400 tons and capable of carrying various sizes of assault craft (originally). Nice and flexible.


My take is that the cruiser has two hangars (a main one and a spare) capable of holding one corvette each, and external grapples for carrying the remaining corvettes. Thus the hangars are available for maintenance or emergency use, but the grapples are typical. That's assuming it saves space of course.

 

[Selandia]

I plan on maxxing out armor. and have more than a little extra cargo capacity planned for it. part of why i liked the idea of a distributed hull after someone suggested it..easier to strap extra cargo modules to the hull.

so far it's looking like 3500-4500 tons for the main ship, with the engines rated to carry up to 7k.

Actually, the distributed hull would allow for a diversified lot of mission specific modules. Fuel for repositionning, labs as a mega labship, or cargo and personnel if its mission is setting up a base, or whatever it needs to run a survey flotilla .... the ISS would value flexibility

The power plant of a corvette may be plugged in as back-up power supply, but why not a J-1 backup drive? Or an optionnal sub-hull with a J1 (The distributed config allows that kind of things) for those trip when one less corvette is less important than the ability to come back from the edge of the map where " From here, there are Dragons"

have fun

Selandia

 

[flykiller]

construction Deck for up to 30 ton modules/vehicles.

why? what might you construct that 1) you haven't already brought and 2) can construct in time?

Hangers for spare small craft. ranging from 10 to 50 tons.

should be standardized so that any boat goes anywhere.

Large medical bay. 20 patients standard/40 if they double bunk patients.

double-bunking won't happen. and if you're doing something that generates 20 patients then you're doing it wrong. put the full-service medical bay adjacent to a regular berthing section, that way if you need more space then you can expand as necessary and make healthy people double-bunk.

It would support a group of ships consisting of
4 Survey corvettes
6 100 ton scouts
2 Armed Survey escorts
1 SAR Ship
2 cargo ships
1 tanker/fuel processor

1) seems like overkill. 2) if they're scattering everywhere then the escorts will not be able to escort everyone. 3) this arrangement increases expedition vulnerability - damage to or loss of any ship slows down the entire expedition while everyone waits for the straggler. 4) is the sar ship significantly different from the corvettes or primary ship? 5) are these corvettes/scouts jump-capable? why? you could save significant time space and money by making them riders instead of jump-capable. 6) what does the fuel tanker do that the individual ships cannot do?

 

[wbyrd]

An excellent set of questions just what I was hoping for to give me an idea of the holes I need to plug, or changes I can make It also lets me know what I need to explain in fluff/descriptive text

why? what might you construct that 1) you haven't already brought and 2) can construct in time?

a construction yard allows it to build as needed..instead of carrying dozens of random modules that might not be needed and only take up space..this ship is designed for long term assignments that might not be easily pre-planned ..Also with a 50 ton bay it can rebuild, and repair the drives, and power systems of any ship in the flotilla...or replace small craft damaged or destroyed during the mission.

since evidently mining and refining modules will be available in the Revised rules..It can even make use of loacl resources by manufacturing those items. Mine needed resources refine it.and use the resources to build new kit...

so probably what would happen is

1) group makes initial survey, or a pathfinder survey does that ahead of time.
2) determines equipment needed
3) tender manufactures specialized modules, and gear while group performs tasks not needing the gear.
4) tender/leader pulls in the corvettes which have modular bays and refits them with specialized gear and modules.

should be standardized so that any boat goes anywhere.

very true I shall make it so.

double-bunking won't happen. and if you're doing something that generates 20 patients then you're doing it wrong. put the full-service medical bay adjacent to a regular berthing section, that way if you need more space then you can expand as necessary and make healthy people double-bunk.

As I understand it the medical bays work like staterooms..usually one per..but can be used for two...so under normal circumstances one per room..for mass casualty issues..they ut two to a room..and walking wounded go in the staterooms.

I'll will take your suggestion,though...I'll put med bays next to a berthing section to allow the medics to relocate walking wounded and free up beds in total Charley Foxtrot situation.

Since this group may be several jumps away form a scout base, or other full service medical center..it has to be ready to handle the results of major accidents..which could conceivably mean treating the entire crew of a corvette...so mos of the time the beds will be empty/wasted space..but when they are needed they are really needed.

1) seems like overkill.

To do a detailed survey of an entire star system....it's probably light. one corvette gets assigned an individual mission..survey oort cloud...conduct scan, map, and identify useful deposits of resources on Planet (x)

2) if they're scattering everywhere then the escorts will not be able to escort everyone.

Casual attackers will be unlikely to try anything with two high speed corvettes in system. The survey ships are going to be fairly fast themselves...fast enough to make chasing one down a chore. and if they are running straight towards the incoming escort the pursuit better have a plan. In severe cases the ship under attack can execute an emergency jump.

3) this arrangement increases expedition vulnerability - damage to or loss of any ship slows down the entire expedition while everyone waits for the straggler.

Which is why the cruiser/leader/tender has docks, and docking clamps to carry and repair the damaged ship...it, the armed scouts, and the escorts can attempt a recovery op. While the rest for the group jumps out to a pre-planned rally point...and since they have a tanker it can be the middle of nowhere, or a system with no local source of fuel.

I sort of decide to go with the convoy tactics used by navies. If attacked the more lightly armed ships scatter ( make emergency jumps),and the escorts and armed scouts go into hunter killer mode. The either drive off/destroy the attacker) then jump to regroup with the rest of the group.

Or if the hostiles are too powerful they slow down pursuit long enough to let the more vulnerable ships make their escape. Trying very hard not to get disabled/destroyed in the process.

4) is the sar ship significantly different from the corvettes or primary ship?

The Search and Rescue ship is significantly modified to be able to not only find a damaged ship, and any life pods..It has the means to crack open a damaged ship and extract survivors if needed.

It's bays are set up to handle mass casualties, and transport critical patients in medical deep freeze...It's not as fully equipped as the Cruisers med bays, but it has enough gear to handle anything short of major dismemberment, near lethal contamination,infection by unknown pathogens etc.

and unlike the tender it can land on worlds to carry out rescue ops, or handle missions on the surface. it can handle jobs too big for small craft fitted for SAR work..which is why they carry all that dead weight around just in case it turns out not to be dead weight.

5) are these corvettes/scouts jump-capable? why? you could save significant time space and money by making them riders instead of jump-capable.

I have toyed with that idea....the jump drives are mostly there to allow the to take short jaunts on their own, if someone reports something interesting in a neighboring system. Or, to allow them to jump away from trouble.

I may work up in system cutters based on the corvette hull with no jump drives...I already have independent versions of the corvettes with longer legs, for missions that don't require an entire flotilla. So it makes sense that some might be in system only boats.

6) what does the fuel tanker do that the individual ships cannot do?

spend ALL of it's time refueling working vessels, maintain skimmer drones and refueling drones..and carry a ready supply of fuel to allow the ships to jump to systems without fuel source in system.

Basically if the system has no fuel source..such as gas giants..it goes out to the Oort cloud and finds water ice rich objects..or it jumps to a nearby gas giant gathers fuel and jumps back.

If the flotilla is attacked by a force too strong for the escorts. The tanker Jumps to the rally point as soon as it gets the order. Then the other ships jump to it. With the tanker they can jump to another system, or into dead space between systems. Something the other guys cant do if they don't have a tanker..or drop tanks.


When began this project I was working with the concept that these flotillas are totally self contained..No need for support from scout base, or any outside assistance.( well as self contained as is possible)

They aren't designed for casual "go have a look, and come back" missions...they are "go..set up a long term presence...go over the system with a fine toothed comb" mission oriented.

 

[Selandia]

As I understand it the medical bays work like staterooms..usually one per..but can be used for two...so under normal circumstances one per room..for mass casualty issues..they ut two to a room..and walking wounded go in the staterooms.

I'll will take your suggestion,though...I'll put med bays next to a berthing section to allow the medics to relocate walking wounded and free up beds in total Charley Foxtrot situation.

Since this group may be several jumps away form a scout base, or other full service medical center..it has to be ready to handle the results of major accidents..which could conceivably mean treating the entire crew of a corvette...so mos of the time the beds will be empty/wasted space..but when they are needed they are really needed.

I see Med Bay as either a trauma room or ICU. Once the patient is stabilized it can be put in any lower bunk easily accessible (adjacent to sick bay) to staff. Severe extensive burns require sterile environment and a "stateroom" like med berth (may be med low berth). A small living area should be made with segregation in mind for quarantine. Its finely controlled environnement would double up as quarter for heavily burnt casualities. (or is it the burn room that is used for quarantine...?)

The ability to recover the crew of a wrecked corvette / carry settlers / rotated Survey establishment staff/ would need a "troop deck" that can be simply organized as a potential auxilliary ward with mass casualities / refugees / survivor in mind. (remember the sanity rules of T5 if using this system)

have fun

Selandia

 

[flykiller]

what does the fuel tanker do that the individual ships cannot do?

Spend ALL of it's time refueling working vessels, maintain skimmer drones and refueling drones..and carry a ready supply of fuel to allow the ships to jump to systems without fuel source in system.

exactly what I do with my naval fleets. good to see someone else twig on this point.

might want to have a second look at that though. maintaining power plant fuel this way is one thing, but building up jump fuel using fuel tankers is a whole 'nuther matter. almost isn't possible except in ideal conditions. and on top of that, if this fuel tanker is off by itself in some remote who-knows-where and gets in trouble, it could leave the entire expedition stuck.

 

[wbyrd]

exactly what I do with my naval fleets. good to see someone else twig on this point.

might want to have a second look at that though. maintaining power plant fuel this way is one thing, but building up jump fuel using fuel tankers is a whole 'nuther matter. almost isn't possible except in ideal conditions. and on top of that, if this fuel tanker is off by itself in some remote who-knows-where and gets in trouble, it could leave the entire expedition stuck.

Perhaps a small escort to travel with it..Something along the lines of a 100 ton armed scout, or combat craft.

I'm also thinking of a process pre-positioning full drop tanks in location known only to the command crew of the various ships. tag them with a command activated beacon so even if they are in a dead zone between systems a ship can jump to the area trigger a beacon. Then home in and pick up a full tank.