The Sylea-class battleship from 1e High Guard has a 200,000dt TL14 hull. Is this considered a TL 14 design?
Sylea Battleship
- Thread starter Garnfellow
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Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
no, it has multiple elements that are built at TL 15 (P-plant, Spinal mount, the meason bays, computer, the armour scheme, among others), so it is a TL 15 ship, that happens to have a TL 14 hull.
to make it TL-14, all those TL-15 elements would need to be downgraded to TL-14, which might entail tonnage increases.
At what point does a ship cross the TL threshold? Is it a TL 15 design if it has one TL 15 element, or is it a preponderance of components?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
A TL X ship can have max TL X components (and TL X+1 prototype components).
So a ship with TL 15 components is a TL 15 ship.
Not all components have specific TL 15 versions, so a lower TL version is used. A Hull has no intrinsic TL, so it has the same TL as the Armour it is made of, in this case Bonded Superdense (TL 14). So the Hull can be said to be a TL 14 component.
We need to track the TL of every component to use the PRIMITIVE & ADVANCED SPACECRAFT rule (p52).
Note that the Sylea class has Hull 1000 on each section total Hull 5000. By default a 200000 dT ship would have 200000 / 50 = 4000 Hull. By using the Hull table on p52 and specifying a TL 14 Hull we instead get 200000 / 40 = 5000 Hull.
TL;DR:
The Sylea is a TL 15 ship.
A single TL 15 component (unless it is a prototype) makes the ship TL 15 when it is built.
A TL 14 ship refitted with a TL 15 component is still a TL 14 ship.
So a ship with TL 15 components is a TL 15 ship.
Not all components have specific TL 15 versions, so a lower TL version is used. A Hull has no intrinsic TL, so it has the same TL as the Armour it is made of, in this case Bonded Superdense (TL 14). So the Hull can be said to be a TL 14 component.
We need to track the TL of every component to use the PRIMITIVE & ADVANCED SPACECRAFT rule (p52).
Note that the Sylea class has Hull 1000 on each section total Hull 5000. By default a 200000 dT ship would have 200000 / 50 = 4000 Hull. By using the Hull table on p52 and specifying a TL 14 Hull we instead get 200000 / 40 = 5000 Hull.
TL;DR:
The Sylea is a TL 15 ship.
A single TL 15 component (unless it is a prototype) makes the ship TL 15 when it is built.
A TL 14 ship refitted with a TL 15 component is still a TL 14 ship.
AFAIK that's not defined in MgT1E. If we go to CT:HG (page 20):
So, in CT:HG yes, while it is said that the TL is determined by the building shipyard's, the net effect is that, as no component may be higher, the higher TL component determines it.
As for the hull in MgT, being TL14 just means that it has one hull and structure point per 40 dtons, instead of per 35 (as at TL15). This reduced significatively the cost of the hull over a TL15 one..
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This has been super helpful, thanks!
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
Bear in mind, this is based on the rules which are built to support "tourney" play that require balance, and while its "common sense" that a ship cannot have higher tech parts than its makers can make, it is not beyond reason that they could import high TL parts if they were willing to pay though the nose for them.
in non-competitive game setting (ie the players vs the world, not player vs player), then you could have a ship with expensive, hard to find imported components (for example, a TL14 ship that have had a TL15 P plant).
the rules are written to preclude this mainly to stop people pulling some sort of cheesy illogical min-max build with various imported parts.
in non-competitive game setting (ie the players vs the world, not player vs player), then you could have a ship with expensive, hard to find imported components (for example, a TL14 ship that have had a TL15 P plant).
the rules are written to preclude this mainly to stop people pulling some sort of cheesy illogical min-max build with various imported parts.
Another point is if TL 14 hulls are required to allow you to use bonded superdense armor (as it is TL14). This was discussed (among other design doubts for MgT:HG) in this thread.
It's not mentioned in the errata, but it looks like there's something hinky about the 50 large bay meson guns. They are listed as TL-15, with the Accurate and High Yield Qualities, total of 5050 tons.
A large bay meson gun is TL 11, 100 tons, plus 1 ton for fire control. Accurate is a +2 TL upgrade, High Yield is a +1 TL upgrade, leaving us a +1 TL upgrade to reduce size 90%. This should be a total of 4550 tons, right?
It appears the large bay meson gun should actually be TL 14?
A large bay meson gun is TL 11, 100 tons, plus 1 ton for fire control. Accurate is a +2 TL upgrade, High Yield is a +1 TL upgrade, leaving us a +1 TL upgrade to reduce size 90%. This should be a total of 4550 tons, right?
It appears the large bay meson gun should actually be TL 14?
To "regress" the armor to TL 14, is it as simple as taking 14/15 of the tonnage and cost?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Nothing so simple.
There are two systems, that might or might not stack: A general 5% cost discount for each TL, max -30%, (p52) and an advantage/disadvantage system that can give you an advantage for each TL, max 3 (p52-53).
So a TL11 Meson bay can be given three advantages taking it to TL14 at 200% cost. Possibly it can also be taken to TL15 for a 5% cost discount (no size discount).
50 Large bays: 50 × ( 100 + 1 ) = 5050 dT; 50 × ( 100 ) × 200% = MCr10000.
You've quoted my question about armor, but I think you've responded to my question about bays. In any case, I'm not sure I follow -- my apologies.
The Sylea large meson guns (TL 11) have the maximum of three advantages: accurate (counts as 2) and high yield. This takes them up to TL 14 at a cost increase of 200%. As your math shows, 50 of these is a total tonnage of 5050 dT and a cost of 10,000 MCr. These are the same costs shown on page 191.
So why are the 50 large meson guns listed as TL 15 instead of TL 14? If I could take the guns up to TL 15 for a 5% discount, why wouldn't I always do that? Why isn't this discount reflected in the costs? Other than cost, are there other advantages to a TL 15 large meson gun if it isn't any smaller than a TL 14 gun?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I tried to respond to both posts, I'm sorry for being cryptic.
I would have given it a 5% discount.
Three advantages is max, so no.
I've never understood that giving your weapons upfrades would increase their cost, as does making them smaller.
In any case, the tables for the Sylea, as you say, seem to assume it (as you say), as they cost MCr 200 each, so double the standard Price as shown in page 53... If so, what would happen in the upgrades are over +3 (e.g. a TL 15 PB turret is 7 TLs above its basic TL8. If you add accurate, very high yeld and, variable range upgrades, for a total of +6, what would be its cost?).
In any case, the tables for the Sylea, as you say, seem to assume it (as you say), as they cost MCr 200 each, so double the standard Price as shown in page 53... If so, what would happen in the upgrades are over +3 (e.g. a TL 15 PB turret is 7 TLs above its basic TL8. If you add accurate, very high yeld and, variable range upgrades, for a total of +6, what would be its cost?).
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
The rules only allows three advantages.
If you allow six advantages anyway, I would make it expensive...
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
my reading was that you could only go +3 tech levels, and after that you had reached "the limits of what could be done".
you could make a weapon just as effective but much smaller (but more expensive), the same size but increased capability (and more expensive) or some mix of both (with increased cost).
so those meason guns should only be TL 14, by my reading.
Then it seems I read it wrong...
I understood you could make improvements up to the TL difference, each improvement counting as a higher TL, or reduce the size, according to TL, up to 60% at increased cost.
So, as I understood it, a PB (accurate) would in fact be a TL10 weapon, without cost changes (after all, higher TL stuff uses to have better quaities for the same cost), and if you are TL 13 you could add 3 improvements more or reduce its size (at increades cost) to make it TL13, while if you were TL 15 you could add a total of 7 improvements (or size reductions) so making it a TL15 weapon...
After all, in the upgrades paragraph it says:
without specifying limits. I guess the fact of the reference to only 3 improvements in all being in another column and with tables separating them made me think it had changed subject...
But it seems it's only me who read it this way, so I must be wrong in my Reading and understanding...
I'll have to fix my designs now...
I understood you could make improvements up to the TL difference, each improvement counting as a higher TL, or reduce the size, according to TL, up to 60% at increased cost.
So, as I understood it, a PB (accurate) would in fact be a TL10 weapon, without cost changes (after all, higher TL stuff uses to have better quaities for the same cost), and if you are TL 13 you could add 3 improvements more or reduce its size (at increades cost) to make it TL13, while if you were TL 15 you could add a total of 7 improvements (or size reductions) so making it a TL15 weapon...
After all, in the upgrades paragraph it says:
without specifying limits. I guess the fact of the reference to only 3 improvements in all being in another column and with tables separating them made me think it had changed subject...
But it seems it's only me who read it this way, so I must be wrong in my Reading and understanding...
I'll have to fix my designs now...
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Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
I shall quote page 53 of my copy, under the heading "armaments and Screens"
emphasis mine.
emphasis mine.
Agreed.
That's what I say that, being in another column and separated from the improvements by tables, I assumed (probably wrongly, as now I realise) only applied to size, not to other improvements.
I guess poor reading on my part...
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
well, first word on that column of the page is "instead", not "additionally".
its not a impossible mistake, and I feel for you if you have just realised your going to need to re work a large number of ships in light of this.
its not a impossible mistake, and I feel for you if you have just realised your going to need to re work a large number of ships in light of this.
