T20 Classes and Levels question

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cptn. Collision Course:If you really want an easy system, use the Chaosium one as someone posted a few ago. Just be prepared for the fact that the dice won't tell you which arm you've just lost.

If I really want an easy system I'll go with AHL/Striker. I have 25 years of martial arts training, mostly classical fencing and SCA combat, and I would rather be told I had a -2 penalty on my die rolls than that I had lost the arm that I had behind me and couldn't lose. And character generation and basic combat is where a game should be cleanest: every new player will do both.

I did tech support for 1994-2001. One year for Microsoft, one year for Apple, one year for Hewlett Packard, and five years in corporate support where we played no favorites: Microsoft, Apple, Lotus, Novell, Corel, Netscape, Eudora ... I hate to defend Microsoft (after all the software is bloated and expensive and they did walk me for being a temp just over the one year limit ) but I will defend 14,000+ hours (60,000 issues) of impartial, non-Microsoft tech support experience.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[phydaux]

Am I the only person in the UNIVERSE who thinks GURPS is easy?

 

[bozzutoman]

If you’ve played Ars Magica, then you’ve already got a leg-up on d20.

Jonathan Tweet, lead designer of the d20 engine for 3E, co-designed Ars Magica (1987). He also authored the WotC version of Talislanta (1992), which was built around the d20 concept as well.

I also note that if you've ever played 4th edition Gamma World, it appears to be an embryonic form of d20 3E.

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by bozzutoman:
I also note that if you've ever played 4th edition Gamma World, it appears to be an embryonic form of d20 3E.

Yes, but *very* embryonic. I remember building what (in hindsight) was the d20 skill mechanic in my head while reading 4th, all the while fuming that they had come SO close and still missed the obvious next step...

Where the progression really gets obvious is in 5th ed, which used the Alternity rules...

 

[Uncle Bob]

I'll probably miss some appropriate rebutals.

What I have seen of D20 is much simpler and cleaner than any version of D&D. That is still not saying a lot, as 3 book D&D was a fudged up wargame. C&S is more complex than any game except AD&D 2nd ed, but basic combat is logical if a bit prolonged, and that is 90% of a new players interaction. Only players who want to be mages have to work at it. Thank your God you all missed 1st Edition.

Sorry, I played Gamma World 1st Edition. I can't find my 1st Edition Ars Magica, which is a pity because IMHO WoTC screwed up a aesthetic, medieval feel into obfuscated Victorian Gothic.

I admit I haven't played D20 and I don't even have my own copy of the Players Handbook (a twenty-year old alergy to spending money on "TSR" or "D&D"), but after thirty years and over a hundred game systems (I can't remember all the names, but that number includes SPI and Avalon Hill board games) and writing a few "house rules" myself I allow myself a little judgement on the reading a set of rules without actually playing them. When I do I use phrases like "it appears that" as CYA boilerplate.

And I was a bit unfair about TNE. Traveller had a triple whammy: the loss of new gamers to video/computer games, the House System, and GDW's financial trouble. The Plague was just the icing on the cake, and perhaps I resented the end of support for the type of universe I ran.

 

[Reginald]

Originally posted by phydaux:
Am I the only person in the UNIVERSE who thinks GURPS is easy?

Hehehe.

All I can tell you, the only reason I buy GURP worldbook supplements is to use them as reference source for my non-GURP games.

I don't know if this annoys the folks at Steve Jackson Games, but at least they're getting my money.

 

[Cptn. Collision Course]

[/QB][/QUOTE]If I really want an easy system I'll go with AHL/Striker. I have 25 years of martial arts training, mostly classical fencing and SCA combat, and I would rather be told I had a -2 penalty on my die rolls than that I had lost the arm that I had behind me and couldn't lose. And character generation and basic combat is where a game should be cleanest: every new player will do both.[/QB][/QUOTE]

This being my point - if you want accurate melee combat, use a system that reflects that. The Chaosium system doesn't, but i've taught the system to none-roleplayers in about 15mins. Sorry, AHL/Striker is not one i've used, so i'll take your word for it.

As for marketing, whether you like it or not, the D20 system is widely known, and therefore the main chance when trying to bring the Traveller game to a wider audience. If a new (and independent) version of Traveller (ver 5.0?) was produced today, one might expect sales to be about equal to the number of registered users of this board. More power to Hunter/MJD et al. for trying.

 

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
I have 25 years of martial arts training, mostly classical fencing and SCA combat, and I would rather be told I had a -2 penalty on my die rolls than that I had lost the arm that I had behind me and couldn't lose.

sigh....

D20, and in fact MOST RPGs, "fudge" almost ALL combat. Heck, remember back in the old days when melee rounds were supposed to represent a full minuet of swinging and ducking and feinting, all represented in one "to hit" roll? Even 3rd Ed. is still doing 10 second combat rounds.

The martial artist type-people HATE this!

"OK Bob, roll your 'To Hit' on Jeff's character"

"GM, my character is going to forgo his attack this turn and lower his guard on his left side. I'm going to try and draw the opponent in and to the left. This way, next turn, I can duck any attack that comes in from my left, slip up inside HIS guard and deliver a crushing body blow."

"OK, roll 'To Hit.'"

"Roll? Why roll? I just said my character is going to forgo attacking this turn and instead try to feint"

"Well, your character is 5th level. It's assumed he will try tricky stuff like that in a fight."

"Um, ok... Will I get a bonus to hit, since I'm using a feint to set him up?"

"No. Like I said, it's assumed both your character and Jeff's character will try stuff like..."

"Wait, JEFF'S CHARACTER gets a bonus? He didn't try any tricks at all! Why should his character get the same chance as mine, when I'm role playing my stratagy and he's just sitting there and rolling dice?"

And here is where the GM tried to explain that these games don't even TRY to simulate real life in any way, shape or form.

And then there are the OTHER game systems that have a much more granulated combat system where combat rounds are only one second or so. Each character can choose differant maneuvers and many differant martial arts styles are fully represented with all their various special moves.

And what do people say?

"UNNESSASARILY COMPLICATED! A new gamer would NEVER attempt to learn a system like that!"

Complicated? I thought you wanted a system where real life stuff like feints and jabs were more fully represented!

And again I say:

sigh.....

phy, the lonely GURPS GM

 

[Reginald]

Actually, 3e and d20 uses 6-second combat rounds.

BTW, if you know of a good set of combat rules that simulate every swing a character can make make within a set period of time without being complicated, do let me know.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by phydaux:
Am I the only person in the UNIVERSE who thinks GURPS is easy?

GURPS WAS easy. Until multiple editions and lots of incompatible costs came out. Then it simply grew too much. In looking at the effectively "core" rules, Edition 3R book, plus Compendium 1, and for certain genres, compendium 2, plus a setting book or 20.

I used to swear by GURPS. 3 editions ago. Now, I find it too poorly self-ballanced. And can't remember which book superceeds which other book for costs.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Reginald:
Actually, 3e and d20 uses 6-second combat rounds.

BTW, if you know of a good set of combat rules that simulate every swing a character can make make within a set period of time without being complicated, do let me know.

Check out CORPS at www.btrc.net.

1 second action rounds. reasonable numbers of actions per second. Can replicate (quite throughoughly) some of the fencing displays of skill I've seen at SCA events. And does it without loads of dice rolls.

As an example, party of 5 attaccked by 20 archers in a medaevil setting. Total game time taken: 20 minutes. total die rolls less than 40. Rolls to hit: only 3.

Now, if skill level limits as suggested in the rules are ignored, CORPS can become more chambara than Yoda in SW Ep II.

I can easily reccomend CORPS for Traveller; I've used it in a number of roles, and even for moderns, it works well amd quick. does what gurps does easier, and in fewer pages, and reduces die-rolling.

Another BTRC product, EABA, uses lots of dice, but is also very good and fairly realistic.

And of course, Games Workshop's Inquisitor also has good mechanics for combat pacing, even if they do seem a trifle dice heavy.

The only hitch with almost all RPG's: Very few account for "perception time", and the pregnant pauses of held actions waiting for some trigger action to accur and result in a frenzy of combat. GURPS Martial Arts included some awkward rules for it. StarPlay uses a variable length combat round for the same reason. WWG and a few others don't fully define a round in concrete time increments, but rather define a round as "Enough time for a normal person to make one attack action" or some such.

My own combat experiences indicate typically, 2-3 exchanges in a second or three, followed by 2-15 seconds of evaluating one's opponnent, then repeat. Both heavy and rapier. Observer and fighter. Kendo seems much smoother (again both watched and done), with only 1-5 second pauses.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Phydeaux, give me some credit. I was a wargamer before I studied martial arts and I do understand abstraction and grain in a system. I have seen what you described though. Fortunately I have enough pressence to explain it to others, or at least to force compliace (as a last result I offer to play their opponent with equal detail ) As for detailed seconnd-by-second systems I gave up when I saw a SCA Duke "kill" three opponents in two seconds, without ever being undefended.

*Sigh* I will look at Corps again. I admit MWWG hides some elegant design inside the sillyness.

 

[phydaux]

bob,

I wasn't trying to flame you. I've very sorry if it seemed that I was. That was not my intention.

On a side note - about the example of the Duke killing 3 characters in 2 seconds without ever being in mortal danger himself:

GURPS is kind of like Lexan. It's very robust and versatile, but if you hit it in JUST the right way, it will break in a spectacular fashion: the fencing master who parries EVERYTHING, the acrobat who charges through automatic weapon fire without a scratch.

Unscrupulous players, or GMs for that matter, will try to exploit this. If they are allowed, the game becomes fun for NO ONE.

This is COMPLEATLY the fault of the GM. PERIOD. If the GM lets the players build degenerate characters that exploit the 3D6-bell curve, other players will run screaming from the table saying, "GURPS is for munchkin losers."

That's why when I play I have STRICT character creation guidelines that ensure balanced characters, balanced parties and fun games.

Believe me when I say my love for GURPS is NOT a blind love. I am fully aware of its idiosyncrasies. That's one of the reasons I prefer to GM, and why I only play under GMs with similar philosophies.

 

[Reginald]

Originally posted by aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Reginald:
Actually, 3e and d20 uses 6-second combat rounds.

BTW, if you know of a good set of combat rules that simulate every swing a character can make make within a set period of time without being complicated, do let me know.

Check out CORPS at www.btrc.net.

1 second action rounds. reasonable numbers of actions per second. Can replicate (quite throughoughly) some of the fencing displays of skill I've seen at SCA events. And does it without loads of dice rolls.</font>[/QUOTE]Interesting. But this combat resolution is strictly that: pure combat. One cannot take into account of noncombat skill use, unless one is willing to take so many 1-second rounds to complete the task. Then there is casting magic spell and manifesting psionic power (I assume this is prevalent in Traveller20).

The CORPS does have something for that, correct?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Phydeaux, my fault. I knew where you were coming from and expressed myself badly. Using my name in youer example threw me at fisrt, though

Reginald, outside combat most things can be freeformed by an adequate DM. I even have played in some dam' fine games where the ref free-formed the combat, but he was exceptional.

Slavish use of a detailed task resolution system has bored me since I got tired of Aftermath.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Reginald:

BTW, if you know of a good set of combat rules that simulate every swing a character can make make within a set period of time without being complicated, do let me know.

I've seen people swear by (and at) both GURPS and CORPS. The other game I've seen mentioned is Advanced Squad Leader... Oh, not complicated.

Last suggestion would be take a look at "At Close Quarters" by BITS. http://www.bits.org.uk/ An updated version of the Snapshot rules adapted for all versions of Traveller. I've looked at it for other game systems and it would work really well with minimal work.

 

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Using my name in youer example threw me at fisrt

D'oh! I hadn't even thought about that! I just picked "Bob" as a generic name for my illistrated example.

Sorry about that. I wasn't thinking.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Reginald:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Reginald:
Actually, 3e and d20 uses 6-second combat rounds.

BTW, if you know of a good set of combat rules that simulate every swing a character can make make within a set period of time without being complicated, do let me know.

Check out CORPS at www.btrc.net.

1 second action rounds. reasonable numbers of actions per second. Can replicate (quite throughoughly) some of the fencing displays of skill I've seen at SCA events. And does it without loads of dice rolls.</font>[/QUOTE]Interesting. But this combat resolution is strictly that: pure combat. One cannot take into account of noncombat skill use, unless one is willing to take so many 1-second rounds to complete the task. Then there is casting magic spell and manifesting psionic power (I assume this is prevalent in Traveller20).

The CORPS does have something for that, correct?</font>[/QUOTE]Yes. And it handles all tasks with a simple mechanic. The Powers rules can be used to do traveller Psionics fairly easily albeit expensively in character points. EABA also has a similar system to CORPS.

Several people have used CORPS to do traveller and/or 2300 settings; it works quite well, both in and out of combat. Like any generic system, it has some exploitable loopholes, but they tend to be clearly labled for the GM in CORPS, unlike in GURPS.

Then agian, I like the Hero System, too.

 

[phydaux]

Originally posted by aramis:
Like any generic system, it has some exploitable loopholes, but they tend to be clearly labled for the GM in CORPS, unlike in GURPS.

GURPS Tip for GMs from phydaux, The Lonely GURPS Traveller GM:

The biggest, and in fact only, real "loophole" in GURPS is that GURPS uses a 3D6 game engine and skills are based on stats. So, if an unscrupulous player made a character with a Dex of 16, most of that character's physical skills, like Acrobatics and Stealth and Combat skills, will be around 16 too. Rolling 16 or less on 3D6 makes for a success rate greater that 95%. Any character who almost never fails anything he tries will only succeed in making the game fun for no one.

So how does a GURPS GM get around this? Simple! Don't allow player characters with stats greater than 14.

Problem solved.

 

[bozzutoman]

Hey!? If the prior history system allows characters to start somewhere between 5th and 8th level, isn't that going to be an issue with Encounter Levels? Or are EL's getting chucked?

In CT you'd just guesstimate the threat level of encounters, and let players fly-or-die by guile and a bit of luck. Will that apply to T20 as well?