T20 News

[hunter]

Ok after all has been said and done, it looks like a page count change is due in the forthcoming T20-Traveller's Handbook release.

Rather than 320 pages, I have just placed the order for a hardbound, 448 page (16 pages of color), print-run.

This will obviously bump the cost up to $44.95 rather than the original $34.95, but we think you'll find it worth it. We just couldn't fit everything in with any lesser page count! Otherwise we would have had to start ripping out some of the core design stuff which we didn't think would be a good idea...

Keep an eye on the front page of the TravellerRPG.com site, as I will be announcing the opening of preorders in the next few hours. Those preordering will receive a discounted price, along with a free copy of Traveller's Aide #2. If you already have a subscription, we will add one extra copy to your remaining total of issues left.

Traveller's Aide #2 will be available on or before Jun 25.

Hunter

 

[bozzutoman]

Well that's STILL only 10¢ a page... same as it was before. Not too bad; you just get more at once.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by bozzutoman:
Well that's STILL only 10¢ a page... same as it was before. Not too bad; you just get more at once.

Well it was a choice of a single book out ASAP, or splitting it into two seperate books and having a delay before part 2 was released because it would need additional material and layout to make it its own book.

Me, I prefer having a single book. Heh, this puppy will be the biggest Traveller book every produced!

Hunter

 

[Reginald]

Well, it's big. But it is also over $40. Mind you, I have heard a lot of rants about pricing product at $40. Most of them are aimed at Wizards, whether it is the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook or the new Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook.

I have to be honest with you, that's a BIG gamble to put out a singular $45 RPG product, and it's not one of those limited edition with a fancy binding and cover.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Reginald:
Well, it's big. But it is also over $40. Mind you, I have heard a lot of rants about pricing product at $40. Most of them are aimed at Wizards, whether it is the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook or the new Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook.

I have to be honest with you, that's a BIG gamble to put out a singular $45 RPG product, and it's not one of those limited edition with a fancy binding and cover.

It is less of a gamble than going broke...

Hunter

 

[MichaelL65]

Originally posted by Reginald:
Well, it's big. But it is also over $40. Mind you, I have heard a lot of rants about pricing product at $40. Most of them are aimed at Wizards, whether it is the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook or the new Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook.

(My wife is looking over my shoulder as I type this saying "You want to spend how much on that stupid game?")

I'm sure I'm not the only one balking at the over $40 price. Granted it's only another $10, but the psycological barrier is still there, and no matter how much I try to tell myself it will be worth it I still have trouble with the idea of forking out that much at one time. It's also kept me from getting the reprint of the CT board games.

I hope this only affects a few of us and we get over the sticker shock when we look through the book and see it really is worth it (we hope )

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by MichaelL65:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Reginald:
Well, it's big. But it is also over $40. Mind you, I have heard a lot of rants about pricing product at $40. Most of them are aimed at Wizards, whether it is the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook or the new Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook.

(My wife is looking over my shoulder as I type this saying "You want to spend how much on that stupid game?")

I'm sure I'm not the only one balking at the over $40 price. Granted it's only another $10, but the psycological barrier is still there, and no matter how much I try to tell myself it will be worth it I still have trouble with the idea of forking out that much at one time. It's also kept me from getting the reprint of the CT board games.

I hope this only affects a few of us and we get over the sticker shock when we look through the book and see it really is worth it (we hope )</font>[/QUOTE]Heh, I balked at the price! But I have to do it. It may say $44.95 on the cover, but unfortunately we don't get anywhere near that from the distributors when the checks come in.

The preorder I will be opening later tonight will be priced at $36.00 along with a free issue of the Traveller's Aide PDF series (#2). This special deal will only be available until the actual release of T20.

Hunter

 

[ProtoTraveller]

Originally posted by MichaelL65:
(My wife is looking over my shoulder as I type this saying "You want to spend how much on that stupid game?")

I'm sure I'm not the only one balking at the over $40 price. Granted it's only another $10, but the psycological barrier is still there, and no matter how much I try to tell myself it will be worth it I still have trouble with the idea of forking out that much at one time. It's also kept me from getting the reprint of the CT board games.

I hope this only affects a few of us and we get over the sticker shock when we look through the book and see it really is worth it (we hope )

I am, I hate to admit, one of those who are really balking at paying about $45 for a new version of Traveller. Heck, I have spent a lot more than that over the years on this game, but I have an aweful lot to show for it. I am just not sure I can justify the expense to "replace" a game system I like and I am comfortable playing.

I have not seen any of the T20 material, so the next comments are sheer gut reaction. I've played a number of D20 games, and I really can't honestly see how T20 is going to be a fun and exciting game for me. I cannot imagine what would make it so special that I would need to spend $45 to get the game.

Also, without having seen anything for this, it makes it really tough to preorder the game. I guess, in the long run, I need something more to convince me to spend my money here, and not somewhere else.

 

[hunter]

The price sounds high but if you run the numbers, you will find that T20 gives you more for your money. I ran the numbers against some of the popular new releases (d20 and Sci-Fi) and against GURPS Traveller and the Classic Traveller reprints. In all cases, T20 is the best value!

T20 Price Comparisons



Hunter

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by hunter:
The price sounds high but if you run the numbers, you will find that T20 gives you more for your money. I ran the numbers against some of the popular new releases (d20 and Sci-Fi) and against GURPS Traveller and the Classic Traveller reprints. In all cases, T20 is the best value!

T20 Price Comparisons



Hunter

Comparing T20 to Nobilis (a Game its publishers has admitted is partly produced in order to generate "Wow!" factor simply as a physical object - He has admitted to only have been half joking when he described it as "a coffee table RPG"!) is a bit disengenuous, but on the whole, for all I really shouldn't buy ANOTHER set of Traveller Rules as I have every rule set apart from GT; I love my hybrid CT / T4 / MT set up; I'm a d20 sceptic, most of the players round here aren't SF friendly unless it's Star Wars and I prefer a harder style to MTU... I _know_ I'm going to weaken and buy it, even if that $44.95 turns into £40 here in the UK *sigh*

Long term however, I do think you should consider carefully that for a _lot_ of gamers, two hits of $22.50 (£20) is _much_ more acceptable than one of $44.95. A single hardback is a great splash product to launch the line, but to really build sales you will need a way of drawing in the wider d20 crowd who probably are getting habituated to the $30 price-point for d20 games (Nobilis is quite definetly NOT a d20 game!!) although looking at your table, T20 is the most expensive d20 game yet (but d20 prices have been creeping up).

I'm rambling a bit, I'm sure you have probably considered all this, it's just as one of those whi _is_ going to fork out the cost, I'm saying ouch!

On more positive note, how long between the US release and it reaching the UK? Just so I can start saving, raiding the kids piggy-banks etc

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Comparing T20 to Nobilis (a Game its publishers has admitted is partly produced in order to generate "Wow!" factor simply as a physical object - He has admitted to only have been half joking when he described it as "a coffee table RPG"!) is a bit disengenuous,

Why? I looked at it, and honestly wasn't impressed with the presentation. It is an awkward size, and interior wise is B/W. I honestly don't see what the hype is about its appearance. It's definately not a bad looking book by any means, but neither (IMO) is it all that great either.

We went for material rather than looks for T20. And we have it. This one book has damn near everything you need to run a Sci-Fi campaign. More so than any of the books listed on the price comparision. 16 classes, new feats, new skills, a scalable combat system for personnel, vehicles, and starships, computer design rules, vehicle design rules, starship design rules, star system and planetary development, animal encounter, trade and commerce, technology...All of this material can be used with other d20 games, and most of it can even be used with other versions of Traveller!

I _know_ I'm going to weaken and buy it, even if that $44.95 turns into £40 here in the UK *sigh*

So buy it through the preorder and save a few pounds

Long term however, I do think you should consider carefully that for a _lot_ of gamers, two hits of $22.50 (£20) is _much_ more acceptable than one of $44.95. A single hardback is a great splash product to launch the line, but to really build sales you will need a way of drawing in the wider d20 crowd who probably are getting habituated to the $30 price-point for d20 games (Nobilis is quite definetly NOT a d20 game!!) although looking at your table, T20 is the most expensive d20 game yet (but d20 prices have been creeping up).

Yes it is the most expensive of those listed, but in the same token it is also considerably larger than every one of those listed. The largest is still under 400 pages while T20 comes in at 448 pages.

The problem with splitting the books is two-fold. It would take even longer to prepare two books for release as opposed to one. And it increases the overall cost of the product. I can't print two seperate books as cheaply as one. A new cover has to be commissioned, there is additional print costs involoved, etc. $22.50 for a hardbound book of 200+ pages is just not economically feasible. Best price you would see is around $27.95 to $29.95.

On more positive note, how long between the US release and it reaching the UK? Just so I can start saving, raiding the kids piggy-banks etc

Just as soon as the UK distributors place their orders with us!

Hunter

 

[Ben W Bell]

Hunter.

I know what you are saying, and yes it is the most cost effective one on the market. It's just the massive psychological barrier of that price that will stop people picking it up. This is to encourage people who don't play Traveller to pick it up and run with it.
Psychologically two books at £30 are better, but not financially.

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by hunter:
The price sounds high but if you run the numbers, you will find that T20 gives you more for your money. I ran the numbers against some of the popular new releases (d20 and Sci-Fi) and against GURPS Traveller and the Classic Traveller reprints. In all cases, T20 is the best value!

Yup. Could have told you that. As a reviewer, I maintain a spreadsheet of prices and price/page ratio of all the products I review, and $.10/page is pretty well as good as it gets. Anyone who knows my reviews knows that I harp on prices.

But the ultimate question isn't the price per page... it's how useful those pages are. I could get a much better bargain on paper by picking up a ream at WalMart (and in the cases of some games--like Nobilis--I would get more play value out of it, too...

) If T20 is anywhere near the workhorse that MT was, then my money will have been well spent.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by hunter:
The price sounds high but if you run the numbers, you will find that T20 gives you more for your money. I ran the numbers against some of the popular new releases (d20 and Sci-Fi) and against GURPS Traveller and the Classic Traveller reprints. In all cases, T20 is the best value!

Hunter

If you're including Nobilis on that list, you should also include Hero 5th edition. It's another 400+ page $40+ tome of immense proportions.

I have seen most of what is going into the Traveller Handbook, and am really looking forward to it.

 

[bozzutoman]

Hunter,

If you really want to get people's mouth watering, and their purse strings loosened, try releasing a preview PDF. Your online previews are inspirational, but they don’t show what the book is going to be like.

Some of the other d20 designers release a 4-8 page PDF of actual product pages. That way consumers get an exact idea of what they are getting for their money without giving away too much. For example, something like >This<.

It could be like thus:

Page 1: The cover with the word PREVIEW added.
Page 2: An intro and the sales pitch (including the pre-order special).
Pages 3-6: Selected pages that show the value of the material and a little "Wow-factor".
Page 7: Any required OGL stuff.
Page 8: Back cover to put the final pitch.

This might be just the kind of thing that will make the skeptics say, "Sorry honey, no Applebee's this weekend. I must have this book!"

Of course the burger-flipping teens are still hurting to afford it, but hell, working a little overtime never hurt anyone.

[edit: Also; lots of advertising banners on various Traveller and d20 websites.]

 

[ProtoTraveller]

Originally posted by hunter:
The price sounds high but if you run the numbers, you will find that T20 gives you more for your money. I ran the numbers against some of the popular new releases (d20 and Sci-Fi) and against GURPS Traveller and the Classic Traveller reprints. In all cases, T20 is the best value!

T20 Price Comparisons



Hunter

You can compare prices to just about anything, but price is not the only deciding factor. Value is the key factor. What is this new version of Traveller going to offer that I do not already have? What makes it so good that I should buy it instead of the many other games on my "want to buy" list?

I guess I am a whining hard case on this, but not knowing much about the T20 game makes it hard to make a purchase judgement. I went to look at the previews on the TravellerRPG.com website, but they were not really inspiring. I imagine I am not part of the target market for this product, which is okay, I guess.

 

[MarkJ]

Several posts have pointed out the high initial cost of playing T20, for me it dosn't matter I was going to buy T20 no matter what.
However I feel there is an excellent point, $45 is a lot of money to spend blind, and I think making available for free a set of T20 Lite (character generation, basic rules and some ships) will only help sales. I have bought books, scenarios etc electronically but I prefer a physical copy, something to hold in my hands. Whenever I have enjoyed a book I have bought a physical copy, if possible.
Having a set of simple rules available will only increase our possible market. If someone can play a simple game of T20 and enjoy it, they will buy the rulebook, another sale.

Regards

Mark

 

[Chris Henry]

While this isn't indicative of casual gamers, I can safely name a certain market that will be scooping the book up -- the d20 book collectors. Several of my friends fit this category, and when I informed them by phone of the page count I could almost hear their jaw drop. So, for what it's worth, there is a certain percentage of the market that is going to be all too happy to pay ~45$ for a huge book.

 

[Reginald]

So what are you saying? That casual gamers are cheap gamers?

I'm just as hardcore devoted to RPG as your friends, but I'm also a cheap SOB.

BTW, it was nice of QuikLink to pitch a low discounted price if you're to pre-order the book. That's a step in the right direction in order to pitch their new wares to the consumers. But I think they should go a little bit more farther than that.

What about giving us a free Traveller Fast-Play Rules, just like AEG's Spycraft Lite rules? It doesn't have to be large and in great detail but allow us to experience a fraction of the game's value while learning some of the new elements you contributed to d20 and Open Gaming. That way we can test-drive before we can all commit to a $45 purchase (or the $36 pre-order).

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Reginald:
What about giving us a free Traveller Fast-Play Rules, just like AEG's Spycraft Lite rules? It doesn't have to be large and in great detail but allow us to experience a fraction of the game's value while learning some of the new elements you contributed to d20 and Open Gaming. That way we can test-drive before we can all commit to a $45 purchase (or the $36 pre-order).

We plan to, but we have to get the main book ready to print first. From there we can pair it down into a 'lite' version.

We also plan to make a full PDF version available for around $25

There should be something along these lines available around the first of July.

Hunter