T20 Prestige Classes

[Ellros]

I think some of the prestige classes from Spycraft would work well. I already have a player asking about the sniper one from the Soldier/Wheelman supplement. I'll have to read more on it and see what it might look like converted over.

ps... I agree with Liam, I never did like the Assassin class. Any class can perform an assassination in my opinion.

 

[Ben Harrison]

Originally posted by DrSkull:
A prestige class for those who run their own Mercenary outfits might be a good idea (especially since that's what most of my campaigns seem to revolve around). I don't know what'd you call it, since Mercenary is already taken.

Maybe misspelled but "Conditortti"?

 

[themink]

I would call it mercenary.

A Merc Leader takes his feats as leadership tactics etc

A Merc Grunt takes his feats as toughness, alertness etc

A Merc Tech takes the occassional level as professional

No prestige class needed. Multi classing and choosing feats covers the need.

 

[CharmQuark]

Liam, thanks for your RPG Lineage, very impressive. Like I've said on other threads, I'm not really into the traveller canon, and love to listen to you old timers wax on about what is right and wrong for Traveller game universe like its an ends unto itself.
Anyway, assassin is a possible specialty for a character (I'll warrant an inherintly evil one), one that would more narrowly define the character's funtionality which generally fits into the established norms for d20 prestige classes. Sorry you don't like it, but most other material I've read in the open source community for other d20 games is "take it if you want it." I don't see why some can't simply take the same approach w/ T20.

 

[GypsyComet]

Both template and "just take the right feats" are good ideas, but both also only apply to some situations...

Templates (as defined by D&D3) are not, in my opinion, for PC use. In a very real sense, classes are multi-stage templates with one major difference: they have an EXP cost. If a template doesn't have an EXP cost (or similar cost) then it is free, and you can expect players to line up for it. If it HAS an EXP cost, then you've created a one-level class...

Feat chains also have their place, but there are things I don't really want to give away as feats. As a Referee, I'd prefer to have a player show some dedication to the idea of gaining a lasting advantage that grows over time. Sometimes this can be done with a feat chain, but other times it is better done with a prestige class.

Mechanically, Prestige classes have the advantage of focusing your skill choices on the area you want (and which may normally span more than one regular class), giving you a little more character definition just by way of class title, and finally (and in D&D generally most importantly) providing access to abilities not really balanceable as feats.

To borrow one of the examples being tossed around, the StarMerc Captain as a class and feat chain will mix a military history (of either Navy or Marine or Army) with the Mercenary class and maybe just enough Traveller or Professional to help the business side, as well as feats to enhance his leadership ability.
As a Prestige class, the Starmerc Captain gets an appropriate mixture of class skills to suit his role as a leader on the ground, in space, and in the hiring hall. The class abilities will emphasize the leadership roll, since that is what makes him different from a normal starmerc: a level-based bonus to the Leader skill (or the feat, if you use it in T20), morale bonuses both for himself and those who follow him, and talents similar to Noble Presence and Noble Indignance, allowing the Captain's vast experience and leadership "aura" to affect even those who do not collect a paycheck from him.
Some of these things could be feats, yes, but others are best if they are earned slowly, building up over time.

 

[chron187]

I believe some of the better mercenary outfits crews can still take navy levels though I'm not sure on that

 

[Rodrigo]

My biggest complaint with prestige classes as they have evolved since 3rd Ed. D&D came out is that more and more of them are forgetting that the cool new abilities and specializations should cost the character something proportional to the power gained.

There should be real costs associated with qualifying for the class; requiring a combat-related feat for a fighter or a trivial number of cross-class skill ranks for a rogue doesn't really cost the player anything. Requiring cross-class ranks for a spellcaster, or minor spellcasting ability for a fighter is more substantial.

There should also be costs as you level in the PrC. This is where most of the PrC's I've seen fail, especially those for casters that let them maintain their regular spell progression.

In a Traveller sense, I would think that most of the benefits of military rank, etc., should be roleplayed. I've spent too many years working with retired Admirals and Generals to believe there is any inherent correlation between rank and ability.

 

[BluWolf]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
If a template doesn't have an EXP cost (or similar cost) then it is free, and you can expect players to line up for it.

Templates can have costs. The thieves guild member template I mention has significant in game Roleplaying costs associated with it. I will post seprately.

Templates can also have costs by adding to the effective character level (or alien level). Requiring a player to use a different XP chart for a slower advancement.

I do agree with yuo that templates are not a universal panacea and many of the reasons you site are excelletn examples of situations that would be better served by a prestige class.

 

[BluWolf]

My thieves guild template example:
(Sorry Idon't have something more appropriate for Traveller)

TEMPLATE-MEMBER OF THE JACKS THIEVES GUILD
Narrative text
Requirements:
1)Must be inducted into and remain a member in good standing of the Jack’s thieves guild. Standing in the guild is a determination of the leadership of the guild (i.e. leiutenants, captains and the guild master).

2)Must meet the minimum honorarium each month.
A guild member is responsible for generating revenue for the guild. While the guild usually has sanction over ways and means, ultimately it is up to the member to make his honorarium each month.

A guild member is required to give 30% of all his income per month to his boss. At a minimum, a guild member is required to produce 100GP X CL each month.

Guild members that miss a monthly honorarium lose all benefits of guild membership, but is not thrown out of the guild, until they come current. A guild member that misses several months, or is discovered to be sandbagging or skimming, can find himself, at the least, out of the guild. At worst, set up or dead.

Benefits:
1)Gather Information: While in the city of Odessa a member of the guild gains an environmental bonus to Gather Information checks equl to ½ half his level in rogue, minimum of +1. In order to gain this bonus the member must be in Odessa and be leveraging guild assets.

2)Innuendo: Guild members gain a situational bonus to Innuendo skill checks equal to their CL. This bonus is only useful with other members of the guild.

3)Intimidate: Guild members gain an environmental bonus to Intimidate skill checks equal to ½ their CL. In order to gain the bonus the target(s) of the intimidation must be know the PC is a member of the guild. This bonus does not apply against other members of the guild or enemies of the guild.

4)Guild Wharehouse: Guild members can procure equipment from the guild at a discount. A guild member can request to purchase equipment from the guild. The DM will make a determination if the equipment is available. If so the guild will traditionally charge 20% less than street price. If the member was invovled in procuring the item or components of the item this discount can increase to 50%.

5)Accomodations: The guild usually provides housing for members. These locations can range from condemmed buildings to small apartments located in guild controlled buildings. This housing can be considered a safehouse or secret location in regards to conventional search or inquiries about where that PC lives. Housing is usually a perk of status with in the guild. In game terms a player can assume he has a safe location equal to 10 sqft. / CL .

6)Access to specialists: The guild has access to many people of varying degrees of skill and morality. Guild members can make a request of the guild for help in locating someone of a specifc skill set or attribute. If the guild can provide this individual, the member takes all responsibilty for the individual to include compensation for services rendered. While the guild is capable of providing this service it is not a common pracitce and is frowned upon when abused.

In game terms a PC can make a request 1/mo, if nothing went wrong with the last request. The person recruited can be of the maximum level equal to the leadership score of the guild leader the request has been made to. Take this into consideration when making the request. The guild is also under no obligation to fulfill the request. Whether or not a person is recruited on behalf of the PCs only 1 request can be made per month.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by CharmQuark:
Liam, thanks for your RPG Lineage, very impressive. Like I've said on other threads, I'm not really into the traveller canon, and love to listen to you old timers wax on about what is right and wrong for Traveller game universe like its an ends unto itself.
_________________________________________________
In regards to sentence one:
You're quite welcome.
In regards to being called an "Old timer", I am not waxing or waning about what is canon sir.
I am an old gamer/ GM, true.
BUt you fall into stereotyping/ generalizing me/ and my opinion on your topic. Never assume, CharmQuark.
You sir, obviously have not read my posts either. I am a heretic homebrew campaigner, as far as Traveller goes, set in the TNE era. We all pick n choose what we use, and do not use. Read Ancient: Hunter (Gordon)'s sign. for further clarification if mine doesn't suit you. They are the same, I assure you.
________________________________________________

Anyway, assassin is a possible specialty for a character (I'll warrant an inherintly evil one), one that would more narrowly define the character's funtionality which generally fits into the established norms for d20 prestige classes. Sorry you don't like it, but most other material I've read in the open source community for other d20 games is "take it if you want it." I don't see why some can't simply take the same approach w/ T20.

_________________________________________________
I think for those that wish to do so, ie, use such a class, are inviting the munchkin-ism most GM's prefer to avoid, as well as reasons I have stated before.

If you wish to create a prestige class, do so. Submit it to this list for publication, as the CoTI board needs writers, (or so I read on the other page). Let Hunter & Coy. decide.
Or make one for your traveller Universe. That's my interpretation of the "open source community" D20.

One could as easily with feats, skills, and good die rolls, create such a PC/NPC from the existing THB. I think you can do it. It would simply (in Game terms) be a series of career choices--stealthiness, better BAB bonuses, choice of weapon specialization.
A Rogue-Mercenary multiclass could do the job, I believe.
My .000000125Mcr, OTOH, YMMV.

 

[manley_t]

Well, since I've got my T20 HB it's fairly obvious that that long list Hunter gave in the beginning was truncated somewhat to the tiny list that ended up in the book.

There are two camps in regards to presteige classes. For one, using feats and skills you can generate almost any type of character you want. However, if you have special abilities that only exist in a prestige class, then it's fine to have that class.

But, to be honest, many of the ones I've read could be resolved just by building your character with skills and feats, or by adding new classes.

I know I for one was dissappointed that there wasn't any ESS (Emergency Services System) personnel. These could include law enforcment, medical alert and fire supression and search and rescue (space rescue).

I think law enforcement is unique enough to have it's own class.

I also think Space Rescue is unique enough to have it's own class. In fact, I had made some professions waaaay back in in my house-rules CT game that included this. It lends itself to some pretty hairy adventures as you're sending a crew on a search and rescue mission -- they don't know where or what. I had adventures ranging from pirate attack to bug-stuff ala the movie Alien.

Event Horizon is a perfect movie example of this class of character. Though the movie came out a decade and a half (or more) since I ran that adventure.

 

[Ran Malia]

I have just started playing the D20 system and I am still gaining familiarity with the prestige classes, but some of my thoughts.

Multiclassing is limited as some people have already mentioned. True I can join the navy, then move to the merchant class, then move to the mercenary class and call myself a star merc captain, but does that capture what a charcter is trying to do or would do. The StarMerc captain, represents the individual who has spent time as part of a mercenary unit, took some initiative to learn the workings of a mercenary company i.e. the logisitics, financing etc. and had some natural leadership ability.

You can use feats to make many things, but ony if you jump from class to class which I don't think is very realistic.

For example, how do you make an Scout S3 member. Most likely you run him as a scout for a couple of levels then you switch him over to mercenary,army or marines, but none of these really account for a S3 member and you would still have to cross class skill to make him/her sneaky. I think a prestige class that incorporates what S-3 really does better fits the build.

I think that there should be two type of prestige classes for T20. Class/Service specific and General. Class specific would be the scouts S-3 and their Deep Cover Observer or maybe for "classic" organizations such as the Sylean Rangers. The general prestige classes would be like Intelligence officer, representing the services or business.

Now that I think about it you probably could use some class like investigator I think that it is distinct enough that it can be its own class.

One more idea could be that in the CT tradition there are some things you have to roll to get into. For example in Prior History you have to roll a high number to get into S-3 or the Sylean Rangers, if you fail you never can enter it.

I don't know just some thoughts.

 

[GypsyComet]

The easiest way to do a Scout S-3 member with only the T20 book would be to do a term in the Scouts then switch to Army or Marine for another term or more. Since you can continue to take Scout levels after "leaving" that service, you could mix Scout levels in during your "Army" career terms.

The other option is to allow an *active* Scout to take High Tech Army or Marine levels in a term he successfully rolls the EXP Bonus or rolls an 18+ on Duty Assignment...

The Prestige Class method for me would be to make "S-3" a "prestige" Service class: You have to be an active Scout to take levels in S-3, and you need some prereq other than that. I'll need to dig into First In to figure out what that should be. It could very well be a VERY short PrC, with its biggest benefit being a gateway to taking Army levels without being in that service. (ie. take the one-and-only level in S-3 to represent the training, and be able to take Marine or HiTech Army during Scout terms thereafter).

 

[Ran Malia]

I agree, that you can take scout and have them go switch to army, marines or something to make them like S-3. That is quick method of doing that, however I think that S-3 is really different from the other military forces and deserve more attention. I have thought about it a little and some things different ideas are:
1. Create a special forces prestige class, that represents all "ground" services (army, marines, scouts). The original class may be enough to give each services special forces a different flavor
2. Create one for S-3, in some ways they would have similar skill, but at least half of them would not be similar. S-3 IMHO would have hide, move silently, and maybe bluff. I admit that this may be a result of my vision of S-3. I see them doing the mission defined in First In of personnel and equipment recover, much like the Air Force PJs, but because of their scout backgrounds they also do counterinsurgency type operations (and anyone who doesn't think the Imperium does that kind of stuff is on crack). This is what to me makes the army/marine class not work.

Just some more thoughts.

P.S. on the feats I have been considering some combat feats, first contact/liason type feats, and some extraction feats some specifics:
Extraction Feat: a feat that allows you to keep your full AC bonus when embarking or disembarking from craft (this may be kind of lame). A feat that allows them Locate feat, that increases with level that gives them a bonus on search or spot rolls to locate a particular item i.e. a pilot, a down shipped, etc...

 

[silber]

Originally posted by BluWolf:
My thieves guild template example:
(Sorry Idon't have something more appropriate for Traveller)
<details removed>
TEMPLATE-MEMBER OF THE JACKS THIEVES GUILD

I like this idea. Unlike the racial templates, it can be taken at any time, and can be revoked as well. In fact, multiple templates can be taken. One could argue, even, that membership in the Traveller's Aid Society can be handled as a template (free tickets, bonuses to diplomacy and gather information with regards to travel issues etc.)

 

[Maspy]

Originally posted by hunter:
Currently working Prestige Classes:

Bounty Hunter
Entertainer
Doctor
Free Trader
Hunter
Noble/Diplomat
Pirate/Corsair
Private Investigator
Reporter
Smuggler

About prestige classes. I think they add to the system overall, but I'm not sure I like seeing so many of them. Every D20 supplement that comes out has x new prestige classes... Vacuum Cleaner sales man, tavern wench and master spy equipment supplier. Hey, maybe I'm just clininging on to the old ways, if so just ignore these ramblings...Oh, too late.

One thing you might consider is adding template descriptions. Some people are satisfied just seeing their character idea in print. For instance, the template of cat burglar would involve a Rouge with 'these skills/feats'. An art dealer would be a Merchant or professional with 'these skills/feats'. An starship Architect would be a Professional with 'these skills/feats'

About your list, wouldn't entertainer and hunter be better as core classes?

How about adding a "Special Forces" class to cover those highly skilled military types (aka, those sneaky gits with guns).

Last bit: Do avoid the assasin P-class, please. Not a fit for Traveller. It could be a template if anything...

Done.

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by Maspy:

About prestige classes. I think they add to the system overall, but I'm not sure I like seeing so many of them. Every D20 supplement that comes out has x new prestige classes... Vacuum Cleaner sales man, tavern wench and master spy equipment supplier. Hey, maybe I'm just clininging on to the old ways, if so just ignore these ramblings...Oh, too late.

Ideally, Prestige Classes are campaign and/or setting specific. This all by itself explains the vast number findable in print and on the Net for D&D.

The Traveller universe certainly has room for Prestige Classes, but they will be a bit different from the D&D variety. The examples in the THB are good ones, both of the "specialist" type and of the "famous organization" type.

Every time someone in this discussion says "but that's just this class with those feats" I have to think "add a prestigious-sounding organization name to the front. Does that help?"

 

[djpapasmurf]

Having played D20 quite a bit, the benefit of a Prestige Class is not that it combines already available feats and/or skills into a new class that is more focussed or just simply cool.

In fact, the game play design for prestige classes (at least as used in the other D20 games) is to have specialized feats that are unique to that class. This is to identify those special, more focussed types of classes that may be unique to very experienced characters. I think in a T20 styled game, this might work for something like Bounty Hunter where they get a specialized feat for Target Bonus when hunting someone or Sneak Attack. Those are specific examples from the Star Wars D20, but the point is those feats are UNIQUE to only that prestige class. If a prestige class has no specific, unique feats and/or abilities then it really should remain a standard class.

Another easy example of a prestige class is the Assassin. You can start out as a Rogue or something and still assasinate people. But once you are skilled enough to be a professional Assassin, perhaps you have advanced to the level of having special abilities such as single-strike kill from behind (perhaps if you roll succesfull stealth roll you can kill without roll or maybe Take 10/20 ...)

This doesn't mean that you cannot create prestige classes for "style" or "groups" .. such as "Crimson Blood Agent" being a specialized rogue/merc for some cool underground organization. You just have to ensure there is something specialized and unique available when joining the prestige class. Otherwise, it is just changing the "name" of the core class.

Not sure any of my ramblings add value, but there it is

SuperStar DJ Papa Smurf