T20 star system/world generation rules

[jgreely]

Four. Three are in Ley: Adigigi, X200441-8; New Konigsberg, X200735-4; and Superior, X89A786-1. The other is in Glimmerdrift Reaches: Dimirbukhiir, X889449-3. Ten are non-aligned, and the other five are scattered.

Three of the four Red X's are inside the Imperium, as are four of the five Red E's and one of the two Red D's.

None of the X's have zero population, although Endless Blue (X68A025-1) only has three. Cinder (X710200-9) is next, and then Palompi (X101200-0).

-j

 

[Malenfant]

OK, let's try a different approach:

X means "no starport", yes?

And E means "bare patch of land, no repair/construction facilities or unrefined or refined fuel", right?

And D means "unrefined fuel available but nothing else", doesn't it?

So what, practically is the difference between E and X as it stands from those definitions (which is how the CT books define them, if I remember correctly). Obviously D is different because that specifically means "you can get unrefined fuel here".


Just going by that, to me it sounds like E means "a deliberately cleared area designated for ships to land in", whereas X means "no area has been deliberately designated for ships to land in". So it's the difference between an unmanned airstrip (E) and a flat desert (X).

So X simply means that there is nowhere official for spacecraft to land on that planet. Doesn't say anything about restrictions (though uninhabited planets would by default be X).

Does that help us at all??

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So X simply means that there is nowhere official for spacecraft to land on that planet. Doesn't say anything about restrictions (though uninhabited planets would by default be X).

Does that help us at all??

That is my reading of it - in some that means E is quite useful, I'm thinking of a world like that in Chronicles of Riddick, all mountainous with jagged edges etc.

I had actually wondered what the big deal was about X and R - one indicates no prepared public landing spot (usually not an issue with smallcraft), the other indicates that landing is recommended against, no matter how/where you do it (it actually represents a ban on contact with the world, which is more than just landing on it).

 

[Malenfant]

Well, one thing that bugs me about X is how one would define "no area designated for spacecraft to land". Does that mean that a lower TL airstrip won't count?

As for the link between X and Red Zones, I'd imagine that if a world doesn't have a place for spacecraft to land - not even to the point of clearing a field or something - then either it doesn't want spacecraft to land there, or the inhabitants are not aware that there are people with spacecraft who want to land there (ie the TL is low, they're unaware that space is inhabited, etc). Either way that's good reason to interdict the world.

So modern Earth would be X, because we don't have an area designated for interstellar spacecraft to land in (unless you say that Area 51 counts as such ). We have plenty of aiports and airstrips that a spaceship COULD land, sure - but those aren't specifically designated for interstelalr spacecraft. If however, we were to meet aliens and clear out a spot for their ships to land, then we'd have an E Starport.

 

[jgreely]

Mal, would it work for you if an X meant "don't land on the mainworld" (for whatever reason) and a Red Zone meant "stay completely out of the system"?

-j

 

[Falkayn]

Maybe it's something simple that is missing? Something so simple and easy to supply that ALL starports (even a cleared area with a berm) in the Imperium have it?

Here are 2 ideas:

1. It could be a small landing beacon left there by the IISS, or supplied by a visiting merchant captain. The absence of that beacon is what makes it an X? (hence Earth really is an X!)

2. Alternatively it might just be that an X indicates that potential landing spots are not catalogued by the IISS, whereas an E indicates that the IISS has actually verified the cleared area's existence and that the coordinates for it are correct.

Personally I lean towards explanation #2 (although #1 would sure help when the weather is bad).

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by J Greely:
Mal, would it work for you if an X meant "don't land on the mainworld" (for whatever reason) and a Red Zone meant "stay completely out of the system"?

Not really

. Though specifying whether you can even enter the system does add another layer of complexity...

Oh, and Falkayn - I guess a beacon or deliberately cleared patch is what I mean by "designated landing area".

 

[jgreely]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Not really

Worth a shot.

I guess I just like keeping the two as separate concepts. I think I'd be even happier with three or four separate, orthogonal fields. Ditto for TL...

-j

 

[mike wightman]

A couple of things to add. What's the point of the spaceport designations that LBB6 gives us? Going back to what Mal said about Earth today having a starport rating of X; I agree with that - the Earth today has no starport. But we do have lots of type G and F spaceports. What do they count as in terms of starport designation (I'm sure a visiting Vilani trader would land at one of them - hence turning it into a starport ).

Next thing is, go and read the description of Lewis/Aramis in the Traveller Adventure. It is red zoned, and rated starport X, because it is owned by the Tukera family (despite the natives ) who maintain a private type D starport.

 

[Malenfant]

Hey... look at the starports table on page 26 of Book 6:

X: No Starport. Generally a red travel zone.

I didn't realise it was explicit in the rules that X was generally a red zone too.


As for starports/spaceports, there's a lot of unecessary redundancy and duplication there. Here's what we got in book 6:

STARPORTS:
A: Excellent quality with refined fuel, overhaul, shipyards.
B: Good quality with refined fuel, overhaul, shipyards for non-starships.
C: Routine quality with unrefined fuel, some repair facilities.
D: Poor quality with unrefined fuel; no repair facilities.
E: Frontier installation. No facilities.
X: No Starport. Generally a red travel zone.

SPACEPORTS:
F: Good quality with unrefined fuel, minor repair facilities.
G: Poor quality with unrefined fuel; no repair facilities.
H: Primitive installation. No facilities.
Y: No spaceport.

So. Let's weed out the duplicates.

D and G are obviously the same in practice.
E and H seem to be the same too.
X and Y are the same.
F might be the same as C, if not for the "quality" - whatever that is. F is "good quality", but C is "routine quality". Maybe that means that F has better restaurants than C or something . So while F might be something between B and C, I think in practical terms it's easier to say it's the same as C.

I don't think there's any practical difference between C/F, D/G, and E/H (and X/Y). Presumably there's nothing to stop a starship from landing at a G Spaceport and getting unrefined fuel just like it would be able to at a D Starport. So we could possibly just drop Spaceports as redundant and replace them with the C/D/E/X scale.

 

[mike wightman]

"Generally" does not mean always , and neither does "almost"

In the MegaTraveller Referee's Manual it goes one further on page 25 and says:

Class X starports are almost always red zones. Amber and red zones are also imposed by the referee.

It still doesn't say all Class X starports are red zones, therefore there must be some that aren't (like in GTD).

 

[Malenfant]

Well, a world that is X100000-0 has no reason to be a Red Zone - it's just uninhabited.

Those worlds that aren't particularly dangerous, yet (for some reason) are uninhabited but on the map are probably the ones that aren't Red Zones.

 

[chrisr]

Which goes back to zoning any X worlds WITH a population. Why would a world with a population, inside the imperium, not have at least an E starport unless:- a) they don't want contact (amber) or b) the imperium don't want anyone to contact them (red).

 

[jgreely]

Just to keep the ball in the air, GtD has an interesting take on the subject:

Within the Imperium, Red Zones indicate worlds interdicted by the Navy or Scout service for safety, political or cultural reasons. Beyond the Imperium, Red Zones are worlds that TAS considers extremely dangerous to visit.

For those in the "X means R" camp, that would lower the number of anomalies from 19 to 4, one of which is a waterworld that simply might not have any bedrock to land on.

-j

 

[Falkayn]

Shouldn't we be mainly concerned with what T20 says they are? (looking at the forum we're in)

 

[Flynn]

Personally, I find it easier to make all populated worlds with Starport X into Red Zones, and typically base additional Amber and Red Zones on a combination of Gov Type and Law Level similar to that done in MegaTraveller and duplicated in Galactic.

Beyond that, MWM used to apply Amber zones to worlds with a Law Level B+ on a roll of 11+ on 2D6. I don't duplicate that in my code yet, but I'm still considering it.

Berka also has some interesting variants on determining such zones as well.

However, that's also OT from the topic in discussion, which I believe is the T20 star system/world generation rules.

-Flynn

 

[Malenfant]

However, that's also OT from the topic in discussion, which I believe is the T20 star system/world generation rules.

Well, starports and travel zones are part of the UWP generation checklist .

BTW, for anyone interested I'm having a little break from working on my realistic UWP generator - my brain is frazzled from worldbuilding right now. I'll get back to it soon though.