T5.09 Errata Discussion Thread

[Epee]

Yes these terms are abstract in the extreme and should be recast.

I use the following houserule:.....


There's definitely some clarifying required for these options and clearer naming is one item. The ability to use GunMaker weapons on ACS ships and vice versa is aslo something being discussed in a thread here.

I like your houserule; it makes sense and allows strapping anything on a vehicle it can carry.

There needs to be compatability between space weapons and gunmaker weapons within the same class.

IMHO, the sections should be written so that they can be used "stand-alone". At least in the sense that the user doesn't have to have read the entire rule book to the point of being able to cross-reference in their head. Providing cross-references within the text would be extremely helpful and cut-down on the redundant restating of rules.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Issues from Pg's 45, 47, 93 and 94

Page 47, Left Column, under the heading: "Medals"

For example, Star Marine Captain Sir Mark Poles
98998B participated in the Retreat from Jewell. In this Term,
his highest Mods are Protected Forces Mod 2, and one Battle
Mod 3. His Controlling Characteristic is Strength-9. He
selects Caution Mod-1.

So there "should be" a Caution Mod included below

He must roll Risk 9 -2 -3 +3 = 7. He rolls 5, is uninjured
and receives a Campaign Ribbon (The Retreat From Jewell).
The signs on the Mods change for Reward, and he must
roll Reward 9 +2 +3 -3 = 11. He rolls 9 and succeeds. He
consults the Medals table on line 9+ Officer Mod = line 10
and receives MCUF Meritorious Conduct Under Fire.

But I don't see a +/- 1 accessed.
Did I miss something or is something missing?

------------------------------------------------------

In addition to that...
Pg 45, Automatic Skills, bottom right paragraph
Last sentence...no end..no nothing...gone

Pg 93, right column, 3rd para "the nest"
Last sentence is...what???

Pg 93, left column, bottom paragraph starts.....but no end

Page 94, right column, first sentence of the first paragraph begins "out of nowhere". It is the back half of a fragment sentence.

Add to the above...
Most char gen professions have an "Academic" Skill chart.
But the "Major" and "Minor" skill awards have a *

Leading to the note:
*If the character does not have a Major/Minor this benefit is lost.
But almost all the career fields do not offer a chance to "get" a "Major" or "Minor"! Does this mean that only those who were in another career field where they did get a "Major"/"Minor" can gain these benefits from this chart? Some explanation would be nice
grin emoticon

So I know they are holding Ver 5.1 for proof reading.
So where can we comment and see what answers we are missing?

 

[Commander Truestar]

Against that, there are plenty of images of the Airship Hangers at Moffet in California. Portable and permanent hangers for aircraft were around prior to World War 1. The ones for the big Handley-Page bombers could handle a wing-span of 100 feet.

It could use a total re-write, not just errata.

Actually,
Having been "in" the airship facilities at Lakehurst, NJ, those structures were never made of wood and canvas. They were always steel, glass and wood construction.

Also, the still existing hangers are well known for being large enough to have their own internal weather systems. I will try to dig up some pictures I have from my visit (1980)

 

[Daddicus]

Errata?

I'm not sure if this is errata or not.

I think there should be references to the page numbers of the various tables used in the main section.

For example, in character generation, the education process is described on pages 39 and 41-43. Those pages refer to tables on pages 40.

Another example: career resolution (not counting mustering) is described on pages 43 and 45-47. It refers to tables on pages 44, 52-53, and 55-67.

It seems to me that the description paragraphs should include a reference to the tables' page numbers.

First example above: Put Refers to the table on page 40. immediately under the ALL-CAPS title for the education section on page 39.

Second example above: Put Refers to the table on page 44, 52-53, and 55-67 immediately under the ALL-CAPS title for the career section on page 43.

 

[whulorigan]

I think there should be references to the page numbers of the various tables used in the main section.

For example, in character generation, the education process is described on pages 39 and 41-43. Those pages refer to tables on pages 40..
.
.
.

I'll second that.

The organization of v5.09 is much better than v5.00, but page number references would go a long way toward making the text even more accessible.

 

[Garnfellow]

The rules for assigning capitals are inconsistent.

Page 403-404, Importance Extension:

Capitals. The most Important world in a subsector is the Subsector Capital; the most important world in a Sector is the Sector Capital. When more than one world is of the highest Importance, the one with the most Trade Classifications is considered most Important.

Note that Capitals are established by Importance; the fact that a world is a Capital follows from its Importance, but does not itself grant Importance.

Page 410, Worldgen Trade Classes (and repeated on 492):

Cp, Cs, Cx require Starport A (alternates are possible at the Referee’s discretion). Politicals and Specials assigned by Referee (not generated).

* * * *
[The chart shows subsector, sector, and polity capitals are Imperial and usually need Starport A.]

* * * *

Cp, Cs, Cx: Capitals may have other starport types at discretion of the Referee.

Page 411, Ix Importance Extension

The Importance Extension (Ix) ranks worlds within a region. It governs the locations of capitals and trade routes.

* * * *

Capitals Cp Cs Cx. Important worlds are more likely to be Capitals of subsectors and sectors.

So some parts of the text use Importance, while the other parts use Starport and GM choice. And for even those sections that use Importance, some descriptions the calculation determines the capital, period. In others Importance informs the decision.

 

[Garnfellow]

I think the best approach to reconcile is to combine them: capitals are informed by both Importance and starport, but ultimately chosen by the GM. To that end here are my suggested edits:

Page 403-404, Importance Extension:

Capitals. The Importance Extension informs a GM's choice in selecting capitals. The most Important world in a subsector with a Class A Starport is often the Subsector Capital; the most important world in a Sector with a Class A Starport is often the Sector Capital. When more than one world is of the highest Importance, the one with the most Trade Classifications is considered most Important.

Note that Capitals are established by Importance; the fact that a world is a Capital follows from its Importance, but does not itself grant Importance.

Page 410, Worldgen Trade Classes (and repeated on 492):

Cp, Cs, Cx require Starport A (alternates are possible at the Referee’s discretion). Politicals and Specials assigned by Referee (not generated).

* * * *
[The chart shows subsector, sector, and polity capitals are Imperial and usually need Starport A.]

* * * *

Cp, Cs, Cx: Capitals may have other starport types at discretion of the Referee.

Page 411, Ix Importance Extension

The Importance Extension (Ix) ranks worlds within a region. It governs informs the locations of capitals and trade routes.

* * * *

Capitals Cp Cs Cx. Important worlds are more likely to be Capitals of subsectors and sectors.

 

[Spartan159]

Things that make you go Hmmmm

So.. if a standard 3 ton cargo pod is 3m high x 3m wide x 4.5m long, how does it move around on a deck height 3.0 standard deck, per p.675, not to mention how do you get it in/out of a standard or large cargo lock (p.307) at 3m wide x 2.5m high or 4.5m wide by 2.5m high respectively?

 

[Reban]

So.. if a standard 3 ton cargo pod is 3m high x 3m wide x 4.5m long, how does it move around on a deck height 3.0 standard deck, per p.675, not to mention how do you get it in/out of a standard or large cargo lock (p.307) at 3m wide x 2.5m high or 4.5m wide by 2.5m high respectively?

We share that affliction.

I always assume the 3x3x4.5m is slightly smaller than those dimensions.

But the one about cargo hold and airlocks is a good question. The deck square is 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 meters.

I always assume the distance between decks to be 3m but the ceiling height to be 2.5 meters as a naval architecture standard. The missing 50cm I usually distribute evenly. 25cm below your feet for grav plates and deck sole, 25cm above your head for pipes etc.

In a cargo hold you could move pipes and conduits to the side or move everything down (so there'd be a ramp up into cargo areas from other parts of a ship).

The Cargo Lock and Large Cargo Lock should actually work out as follows:

Cargo Lock: 2tons = 4 Deck squares = 3m wide by 3m deep by 3m high. (alternatively 1.5m wide by 6m deep by 3m high, usefule for readying a boarding team maybe?). Note you can't get a 3ton in unless you lock both doors open.

Large Cargo Lock: 9tons = 18 Deck squares = 3m wide by 9m deep by 3m high. Theoretically you could cyle three 3ton containers through one of these. (You could also mount this side on along the hull and have a 9m x 3m door).

Plus these components stack. you could bulid a very large lock by stacking for Large Cargo Locks together and having a 6m wide by 9m deep by 6m high lock.

[EDIT Yeah just went back and noticed the amount of deck squares listed in the table on p.307 is wrong. 0.5ton = 1 deck square. Presumably the listed door dimensions are wrong]

 

[tjoneslo]

p. 412 Worldgen, Table N: Nobility.

Is there any discussion anywhere of how many nobles are on a given world.

For example: p. 406, Regina has the nobility code of "BcCeF", which states there are at least 5 nobility on the world: a Knight, a Baronet, a Baron, a Viscount, and a Duke. Could there be more?

The Noble Land Grants table (p.68) implies this lot occupies 128 + 16 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 151 hexes out of 492 hexes in the world. So they can't take much more.

A small world may well be completely take over by the Imperial nobility. I strongly suggest that the progression of hexes owned by the Nobility advance at a slower rate.

Knight: 1
Baronet: 2
Baron: 4
Marquis: 5
Vicount: 6
Count: 7
Duke (f): 8
Duke (F): 9
Archduke (G) : 10

To compensate, you may want to increase the annual payout for each hex.

 

[whulorigan]

p. 412 Worldgen, Table N: Nobility.

Is there any discussion anywhere of how many nobles are on a given world.

For example: p. 406, Regina has the nobility code of "BcCeF", which states there are at least 5 nobility on the world: a Knight, a Baronet, a Baron, a Viscount, and a Duke. Could there be more?

The Noble Land Grants table (p.68) implies this lot occupies 128 + 16 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 151 hexes out of 492 hexes in the world. So they can't take much more.

A small world may well be completely take over by the Imperial nobility. I strongly suggest that the progression of hexes owned by the Nobility advance at a slower rate.

Knight: 1
Baronet: 2
Baron: 4
Marquis: 5
Vicount: 6
Count: 7
Duke (f): 8
Duke (F): 9
Archduke (G) : 10

To compensate, you may want to increase the annual payout for each hex.

Based on the Articles in Imperiallines #7, the Noble Extension is explicitly the Landed Nobles (= old "High Nobles") of the world. There can be in theory any number of additional Nobles of any and all ranks residing on the world (from none to many), but they are not the world's Landed Nobles, but rather merely Ceremonial/Rank Nobles and/or Honor & Legacy Nobility.

Supposedly it is only the Landed Nobles who are guaranteed the Land-Grant Terrain Hexes as Imperial grants (although I suppose it is acceptable to allow non-Landed Nobles to have an appropriate Number of local Hexes that are owned outright, if the GM so chooses).

But remember, the Terrain Hexes granted to Landed Nobles are located based on the tables on p.65 & 68, which imply that Nobles of the rank of marquis and viscount have those hexes scattered about the subsector associated with the fief-world, and those of Counts and Dukes are scattered across the entire Sector associated with the Noble's fief-world. For any grant, there is only a single hex guaranteed to be on the fief-world (but I would guess that on average somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of the hexes might be on the fief-world - but that is a GM decision).

 

[tjoneslo]

Based on the Articles in Imperiallines #7, the Noble Extension is explicitly the Landed Nobles (= old "High Nobles") of the world. There can be in theory any number of additional Nobles of any and all ranks residing on the world (from none to many), but they are not the world's Landed Nobles, but rather merely Ceremonial/Rank Nobles and/or Honor & Legacy Nobility.

This needs to be made clearer in the T5 core rules. There is only one Duke of Regina (who holds a land grant), one Viscount of Regina (with land grant), and so on.

But remember, the Terrain Hexes granted to Landed Nobles are located based on the tables on p.65 & 68, which imply that Nobles of the rank of marquis and viscount have those hexes scattered about the subsector associated with the fief-world, and those of Counts and Dukes are scattered across the entire Sector associated with the Noble's fief-world. For any grant, there is only a single hex guaranteed to be on the fief-world (but I would guess that on average somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of the hexes might be on the fief-world - but that is a GM decision).

That needs to be much more clearly explained.

So the Duke of Regina has 1 hex allocated on Regina, plus 127 other hexes randomly located on the main world of systems throughout the Spinward Marches (which may include Regina), plus at least one hex in each of those systems on another world.


Also:

From Imperialies 7:

Each Landed Noble is granted control over a part of each world to which their title applies. In the case of Dukes this can be almost an entire World Hex on one world and one or more Terrain hexes on every other world in their fief.

From T5 5.09 core rule p 68:

Nobles of the Imperium receive, as part of their grant of title, a fief: a Noble Land Grant expressed as hexes on world geodesic maps.

These are not the same, and need to be reconciled. 128 terrain hexes is huge difference from 128 world hexes. I would be much more likely to believe the former, rather than the latter. Both in terms of currency generated and just space allocation.

Supposedly it is only the Landed Nobles who are guaranteed the Land-Grant Terrain Hexes as Imperial grants (although I suppose it is acceptable to allow non-Landed Nobles to have an appropriate Number of local Hexes that are owned outright, if the GM so chooses).

There are two parts to this. The Duke of Regina (following our example), may have a land grant on Roup, but doesn't hold any title there. And there are no rules, guidelines, suggestions, hints, or misdrawn inferences to make about how that works.

The second would be the private holdings of the Duke, which are outside of this discussion.

 

[whulorigan]

From Imperialies 7:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Each Landed Noble is granted control over a part of each world to which their title applies. In the case of Dukes this can be almost an entire World Hex on one world and one or more Terrain hexes on every other world in their fief. [/FONT]

From T5 5.09 core rule p 68:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Nobles of the Imperium receive, as part of their grant of title, a fief: a Noble Land Grant expressed as hexes on world geodesic maps. [/FONT]

These are not the same, and need to be reconciled. 128 terrain hexes is huge difference from 128 world hexes. I would be much more likely to believe the former, rather than the latter. Both in terms of currency generated and just space allocation.

The error probably lies somewhere in the fact that 1 World Hex (I believe) is approximately ~ 130 Terrain Hexes in equivalent area. I think that someone expressed the Terrain Hexes in terms of the "1 World Hex" to illustrate scale, but then forgot himself and alluded back to the 128 Terrain Hexes again.

Unless, of course, the "... one or more Terrain hexes on every other world in their fief..." is referring to the terrain hexes on both the other Mainworld Terrain Hexes and the Non-Mainworld Terrain Hexes that are associated with all of the Mainworld Terrain Hexes (both within and without the fief-system). But that is still quite ambiguous.

The second would be the private holdings of the Duke, which are outside of this discussion.

Yes, private holdings (Local Hexes) are parts of Terrain Hex grants and become the personal property of the Noble. So presumably even if a Noble loses one or more of his High/Landed Titles, the Local Hexes are still his property and can potentially generate income through rents and leases, etc. (Not on the scale of an Imperial Terrain Hex, of course, but some revenue nevertheless). And that does not address simple personal property, assets, and revenue sources that can be abstracted to the equivalent of Local Hexes (and might be in the possession of even Honor, Legacy, and Ceremonial/Rank Nobles).

 

[Spartan159]

Just to throw a monkey-wrench into the proceedings, what about holdings in asteroid worlds? Do Nobles and/or explorers own large asteroid/planetoids or something? Just a 0.02 credit side question.

 

[Original_Carl]

I searched for "rogue" and didn't get any hits on this thread, so here goes.

Page 64

Create a DM to apply to the 1D Roll (any value from 0 to 7) which then defines the six possible scheme careers

I'm all for giving room for creativity in applying mods and so forth, but this is a bit too undefined, I think. Was this intended or is there missing text?

How about flux + Prior Careers + Streetwise/2?

 

[Original_Carl]

I searched for Functionary, too, but I found nothing.

There's a conflict between the Risk/Reward+Success/Failure table on page 67 and the text below it. The table says, "Must Continue" The text below says, "may continue"

I find the idea of being forced to work in a career until you retire unless you fail at office politics amusing and kind of dystopian. However, I think the table should read "May Continue"

Cheers!

 

[Original_Carl]

Here's a list from my game group. Sorry for duplicates. Feel free to discuss.

Pg 276, Firmpoints, 1st paragraph, 3rd line: "ion" should be "on".

Pg 303, Table B, Sensor Tech Level Stage Effects, some negative numbers have spaces between the "-" and the number and some don't, should be standardized one way or the other.

Pg 307, Tables B, C and D contain numerous redundancies. This may be intentional, but I think it confuses the reader. Consider reorganizing the data into a single table as:
Description, Squares, Tons, MCr, , Access, Passenger, Crew, Life Support, Comment
Cargo Lock, 2, 2, .04, x, , , , Height 2.5m Width 3.0m
Standard Stateroom, 2, 2, 0.1, , x, x, , 1 passenger. No fresher
Common Fresher, 1, 1, 1.0, , x, x, x, shared by up to 10 individuals
Et cetera

Pg 307, Table D, what is the capacity of the medical low berth? I could see arguments for 1, 2 or 4 depending on whether it's more like a standard low berth, or an emergency low berth.

Pg 350, Table P, 7th column should say "Ultimate"

Pg 354, Identifying Space Sensors — it looks like the Imp AR Surf Radar line is duplicated (w/missing TL#).

Pg 355, Hardpoints and Firmpoints — duplicate entries for this on the page

Pg 413 (actual): Gas Giant Skimming: Ship’s G must exceed GG Size/100.
Maybe this should be GG Size/10.

Pg 520, Computers: Are there no TL/MCr/Tonnage information for the Mechanical and/or Positronic Stages? Are there any benefits to the advanced computer types other than the EMP resistance (except for Photonic which has a cost benefit)? Is there a tonnage benefit/negative for a Photonic computer?
NOTE: Computer Tech Level Stage Effects didn't make it from Master Text Old to Text Master, and not to 5.09, either.

 

[Selandia]

Just to throw a monkey-wrench into the proceedings, what about holdings in asteroid worlds? Do Nobles and/or explorers own large asteroid/planetoids or something? Just a 0.02 credit side question.

Well, how do you map asteroid belt as well as the bodies within the asteroid belt?

for less than 1000 miles diam bodies, we simply are on our own.

It is also an issue in non mainworld holding that may be in Belt or on a Moon.

have fun

Selandia

 

[Spartan159]

p.196 p.197 p.325 Boost / Reentry Heat

The heat for boost and reentry values on pages 196, 197 and 325 do not agree with each other, not to mention not making much sense to me when compared to armor values, even when including hull type friction modifiers. For a laugh compare to values for star/nova on page 197. I'm not saying every merchant should be able to meteoric reentry but they should be able to fast reentry barring hull damage.

How fast does a space shuttle reenter atmosphere? Yeah, they have tiles. And aluminum skin measuring in mm. Somehow I think that TL 11 Scout with an armor rating of 6 should be able to do just as well as a space shuttle.

I was also looking at the heat Polymer and Organic hulls could take, which is not much.

 

[Daddicus]

Don't forget that TL 10+ Traveller ships have access to anti-gravity devices. That pretty much negates the need for a space shuttle type reentry.