T5 LBBs - New concept

[T. Foster]

The more I think about this idea the more I'm liking it. Something that's occured to me that hasn't been explicitly mentioned so far in this thread -- how the format will affect the content. If T^5 is written with such looseleaf/binder publication in mind it should affect the way the rules are written and organized, making them become more like wargame rules with brevity, clarity, and conciseness valued primarily (to keep page-count low and prevent chapters (or even paragraphs) spilling onto 'extra' pages).

IMO rpg rules should read like rules -- straightforward unambiguous step by step instructions, with examples where appropriate, and no useless filler. The "conversational" writing style of TNE (and, dare I say it, all too much of GT and T20) and/or the "story" writing-style of many other 'modern' rpgs annoy and frustrate me without end. Rulebooks aren't something to read "for fun," they are a reference tool that should allow you to find exactly what you need quickly and with minimal hassle. CT (and, barring the unfortunate errata, MT) got this right. So, anything that might encourage a return to that 'old-fashioned/wargamerly' style of writing gets my approval.

 

[Solo]

First, I truly appreciate the work that went into creating that mock up. Great Job! Looks Great.

But.

The cost would go up for the product if it included the binder. If it didn't how would you sell it on store shelves?

This might be great for Online sales but store owners (I've asked a few) seem to like the format to be standard, whatever that may be - right now it's the 8.5 x 11 hardcover. It's easy to stock shelves. Ask SJG about packaging problems with some of their games and store owners.

The creation of the 5.5 x 8.5, hole-punched format would create additional costs at the printer. Cutting, hole-punching (which depending on volume is a hand labor intensive job) tracking of page order, to go along with print costs might actually make this more expensive than a 8.5 x 11 product with a similar page count.

I know HARN does this in standard letter size but when have you seen HARN at your local game store? I haven't seen it in my area for many, many years.

The only way I could think to sell this on shelves would be to put it into an attractive, slim 8.5 x 11 box (tough, that couldn't be easily opened). That way it would take up as much space as a "regular" game.

My 2.

p.s. Personally I like some flavor to my game writing. I think that Transhuman Space as an example provides some flavor along with clear background and rule material. Purely "flashing back" is rarely the answer. Pulling from the past useful bits is. Make the game interesting, Make it attractive and the gamers will come.

-S.

 

[tlindsey]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
If T^5 is written with such looseleaf/binder publication in mind it should affect the way the rules are written and organized, making them become more like wargame rules with brevity, clarity, and conciseness valued primarily (to keep page-count low and prevent chapters (or even paragraphs) spilling onto 'extra' pages).

My home brew game system uses this small binder format and one of my guiding design principles has been "if the rule is too big to fit on one double-sided page, it should be more than one rule". I actually version each rule and have the version stamp on each page so that I can update specific rules individually without having to reprint an entire rulebook. Kind of like applying a "service pack" to the rulebook.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, Digest Group had done equipment cards that were a single page and had an illustration, description and common tasks all printed on a single sheet. This concept could be extended to individual rules. In addition, remember that the Task Resolution system for MegaTraveller was explained on a single page!

As for background, fiction and narratives, there's no reason it can't be interspersed on their own pages within the "books" that are in each binder. This actually gets back to Traveller's roots of having a "generic" rules set with the setting being a separate, optional component. Some of today's game have gone to the other extreme in which information on the setting is tightly interwoven with the text of the rules.

 

[Nurd_boy]

NO NO NO !!!! No three ring binders...

I remember D&D2e in the ring binder for the monster pages, HORRIBLE !! rips out, lost, binder was cheap junk...

And lets not forget 'trinity' in the small binder...it was a JOKE !!!!

if you want to KILL THE GAME and MAKE IT LAUGHING STOCK WORSE THAN 4th (sorry, but it was a total failure)...THEN BY ALL MEANS, MAKE IT A BINDER...

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

You Heard the Nurd, we have to go for the 7-ring instead!!!!

Seriously, the 7-ring would be much harder to tear out all the holes of a page and would look more professional.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Nurd_boy:
NO NO NO !!!! No three ring binders...

I remember D&D2e in the ring binder for the monster pages, HORRIBLE !! rips out, lost, binder was cheap junk...

And lets not forget 'trinity' in the small binder...it was a JOKE !!!!

if you want to KILL THE GAME and MAKE IT LAUGHING STOCK WORSE THAN 4th (sorry, but it was a total failure)...THEN BY ALL MEANS, MAKE IT A BINDER...

I think everybody here agrees that the AD&D2 MM was a disaster (I certainly do, and Ted mentioned the same thing), so if something like this were to go forward it would definitely be at a higher quality level -- better binders, heavier paper-stock, seven rings? (sounds like a winner to me, unless '7-ring technology' is under patent to the Franklin co.).

However, leaving that aside, you are very right about the public perception problem -- a whole generation of gamers were burned by that MM fiasco, and I'm not sure there's any way to get around those memories. But OTOH it might appeal to some ASL players...

 

[tlindsey]

Originally posted by Nurd_boy:
NO NO NO !!!! No three ring binders...

I remember D&D2e in the ring binder for the monster pages, HORRIBLE !! rips out, lost, binder was cheap junk...

And lets not forget 'trinity' in the small binder...it was a JOKE !!!!

if you want to KILL THE GAME and MAKE IT LAUGHING STOCK WORSE THAN 4th (sorry, but it was a total failure)...THEN BY ALL MEANS, MAKE IT A BINDER...

You're absolutely right about both the MM2 and the Trinity game. MM2 was an extremely large, clumsy binder and Trinity had a cheap plastic spiral spine that snagged on the pages of the book.

Since what I have proposed is significantly different than both of the failures cited, what are some specific issues you have with the format? I'd appreciate the feedback so that I can determine if this is a viable idea or not.

Thanks,
Ted

 

[Fulminata]

Everyone's comments seem to boil down to the following problems with the binder:

1) Retail Display
2) Durability
3) Copy protection

The main binder could be put in a slipcase ala Advanced Squad Leader, and that should make most retailers happy. Supplements would probably have to be put in another binder or a small box to make them look decent on the shelf. All of that is going to add cost to the product. It also keeps people from thumbing throught the books, which may make some store owners happy, but I think it ends up costing sales.

The only good answer I can see to long term durability is to print the pages on no-tear paper. It's been a long time since I was in the printing business, but no-tear paper was many times the cost of regular paper when I last looked, and I doubt that good page reinforcement (the second best option) would be any cheaper.

On the other hand, I don't think copy protection is really an issue. It doesn't matter how you bind the book, someone is going to get it onto a pdf. I can go out on Kazaa right now and find the D&D player's handbook either as a straight scan, or as a pure text document with all the graphics removed for easier reading. Worrying about copying at Kinko's is so 20th Century

In the end I really love the idea, but I think you'd end up with either a really expensive product, or one that had many of the same problems as the 2nd edition MM. Unless someone else can come up with better solutions to the problems raised?

 

[Nurd_boy]

I like the old t5 concept of the three soft bound books in a classic 'box set' format (there was a picture of the idea some time ago). Old timers lie me remember that EVERYONE did box sets.

the best exapmple was Chaosiums runequest III edition. Each follow up suppliment (Trolls, Griffin Mountain, Monster Colisium, etc) was a box with book, maps and ref. sheets that where All Reasonably Priced.

something to think about...

 

[tlindsey]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

Sounds as though the production costs of this format would be much higher than I had anticipated.

However, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in the format, despite the drawbacks mentioned.

Personally, I'd like to see something a bit different in format than the hardbound book that's become so common these days.

- Ted

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

A hardcover would be fine but unlike most of the hardcovers today, it would have to have a binding that would let it LAY FLAT on a table when the referee is working his way through charts to create a facet of their Traveller universe.

I was also playing around with the idea of three hole suppliments and wondered what the shelf cover would be like. I came up with the following idea:

*Cardstock or heavier paper wrap around cover with the pages inside of that. (8 1/2 x 14)
*The slight additional length of cardboard would be folded under the wrap around and have the holes to keep in the Traveller notebook.
*The cover art and backblurb would be on the one side of the cover with the "spine" serving as a tab once it is inserted into a notebook.
*Printed internally on the cardstock wraparound would be maps, charts and other information needed to run the adventure.
*This packet would have to be shrink wrapped to keep it together
*Single sheet pages of Encounters, Equipment, Casual Encounters, Maps, World Information and other things could be kept in the notebook long after the adventure is played.

This would keep the shopkeepers happy while providing a useful addition to a notebook.

FWIW
Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Jame]

The notebook idea isn't bad, but my questions are: (1.) how much stuff is in it; (2.) how much does it cost; and (3.) are there any supplemental publications that I can buy separately and put into it later? Sure, these are more on the consumption end, but those are important factors to consider (what will the customer think?).

My opinion, anyway; do as you will.

 

[Fulminata]

I like hardbound books as long as they are put together well.

The reason that the Runequest III books were all boxed is that they were published by Avalon Hill, and they already had all the equipment to print and assemble boxes. I doubt it would have been very practical to do boxed modules otherwise.

 

[kafka47]

Another reason for hardcover books is that it is more likely that a regular bookstore (and also, libraries - although our budgets are being cut making Trade Paperbacks more the rule ) might be more inclined to carry to carry them.

I love the way the binder looks but perhaps this could be an alternative delivery of the same product, if a market could be firmly established. Eg. Basic and Deluxe Traveller co-existed. But, I still have my preference for the Hardcover Traveller Book either in the T20 form or CT. But, the high costs of production, might convience Marc that T5 can only come out, like in a binder format...look at how much the reprints are causing...and Marc owns his own printing house...

 

[T. Foster]

Those who like the idea of Traveller in a 3-ring binder might be interested to know that one of the "official" Traveller binders is currently up for auction on eBay. Interesting trivia note: I'm about 99% sure this seller is actually Marc Miller. (And no I'm not getting a cut of the proceeds, I just happened to notice this auction and, already having one of these myself, thought some other folks here might be interested)

 

[Ron]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
Those who like the idea of Traveller in a 3-ring binder might be interested to know that one of the "official" Traveller binders is currently up for auction on eBay. Interesting trivia note: I'm about 99% sure this seller is actually Marc Miller. (And no I'm not getting a cut of the proceeds, I just happened to notice this auction and, already having one of these myself, thought some other folks here might be interested)

You're right Foster. The seller is actually Marc Miller, as I have already won one of his auctions.

 

[hunter]

Three-ring binding was an idea we looked at but it won't fly. The distributors don't want it, the stores don't want it, and they don't sell that well.

Hunter

 

[Takei]

One other point with three ring binders; they're not an international standard. Slightly different sizes in books is no problem to deal with, but I'd have to special order (probably from the States) a three ring hole punch. This is why the plastic sleeve inserts have so many holes in them.

 

[Dr.Unpossible]

Beautiful rendering and concept Ted

As a GraphicDesign Student, I wanted to "BEG" you to please become the Creative Director for T5. Or at the very least the Art Director. I would love to see the "HARN" bimder version as well. And your page layout is Crisp,Clear,and Concise.

I love it.

P.S. took a peek at your website. I really like your 3d ships. I remember seeing your earlier ships a few years back, not knowing it was you. Your 3d work has improved allot. I'm studing ComputerAnimation myself. And I'm inspired to try some traveller ships because of your art.

Also yer lil wee beastie o a kid is cute too =)

 

[Dr.Unpossible]

Beautiful rendering and concept Ted

As a GraphicDesign Student, I wanted to "BEG" you to please become the Creative Director for T5. Or at the very least the Art Director. I would love to see the "HARN" bimder version as well. And your page layout is Crisp,Clear,and Concise.

I love it.

P.S. took a peek at your website. I really like your 3d ships. I remember seeing your earlier ships a few years back, not knowing it was you. Your 3d work has improved allot. I'm studing ComputerAnimation myself. And I'm inspired to try some traveller ships because of your art.

Also yer lil wee one is cute too =)

-Chris McNeil