Tactical Disgussion Board: Patrols

[Hal]

As a spin off from another thread, I'm opening this thread up for *all* comers regardless of what game system they are talking about (well TNE might be a bit difficult because of the fact that they have limited duration "burns" - greatly complicating their lives )

Situation:
As senior officer commanding a task group, you are tasked with patroling the space within the system Ofnoconsequence (totally made up system name). Roughly 10 ships a day come through this system, for which maybe 1 actually hits port at the class C (III) starport.

Astrography:
Star: Ofnoconsequence
Type: K3 Main Sequence
3 planets, 1 belt, 4 gas Giants

Planet of habitation: .499 AU at 48 degrees
terrestial #2: .849 AU at 192 degrees
terrestial #3: 1.199 AU at 15 degrees
belt system: 1.89 AU various degrees
Gas Giant 1: 3.3 AU at 283 degrees
Gas Giant 2: 6.09 AU at 118 degrees
Gas Giant 3: 11.68 AU at 9 degrees
Gas Giant 4: 22.91 AU at 351 degrees

(degrees off due north where due system north is defined as coreward)

Planet of habitation: TTL 9 population factor 8 non-industrial.

Orders: mount an effective patrol using assigned assets. Economic flow of trade must be unhindered. Generally speaking, 60% of ships stop at Gas Giant #1 (where Fueler Incorporated maintains a fuel skimming process). 40% of ships hit the port of call, with only 10% actually unloading freight/cargo - the rest disgorge temporary transit passengers while ship refuels.

Destroy and/or capture any pirates found, report to central fleet headquarters once per week with status updates.

OK - that is the information you as a senior officer will be given. Fleet resources include:

1 CVE - 30 fighters: 4 twenty dton sensor fighters, 10 fifty dton heavy fighters, 16 ten dton light fighters.

2 DD manuever 4 (armament to be decided by you the reader who intends to layout the tactical doctrine you will follow)

12 Destroyer Escorts - Manuever 4 (armament to be chosen as desired)

Assignment: set missions for assets as you see fit and say why. Mission complications will be added after task group has been tasked with orders

 

[robject]

Clarifying questions:

These roughly-10 ships, they almost always pop in somewhere on the 100D spheres of the Gas Giant or 'mainworld'? Does your jump physics (YJP) permit ships to arrive 100D above, say, the north poles of these worlds?

 

[MrMorden]

Assets assigned as follows:

CVE : Patrol at 100D limit of main world. All 10-20dTon fighters in normal rotation running CAPs from low orbit to ~200D. All Heavy Fighters on Flexible Force Patrol, in groups of 4.

DD 1 : Patrol at 100D limit of main world. Armed with mix of missiles and beam lasers.

DD 2 : Patrol at Gas Giant 1, from refueling height up to 100D. Armed with laser weapons.

Escorts 1,2 : Patrol with DD1.

Escorts 3,4 : Patrol with DD2.

Escorts 5,6 : Patrol between outer gas giants.

Escorts 7,8 : Patrol Belt Area.

Escorts 9-12: Flexible Force Patrol. These are the ships that will answer most trouble calls, supported by Heavy Fighters.

Doctrine:

The fleet exists to protect the citizens and materials of the system. With this in mind, the main zones of protection are the mainworld and the refueling point at gas giant 1. As a result, most forces are concentrated in these two strategic locations.

The key to the proactive suppression of problems is the Flexible Force Patrol (FFP), consisting of 4 Escorts and 4 flights of 4 Heavy Fighters. The FFP handles all routine events such as requests for assistance, distress calls, and calls to investigate anomalous events. This leaves all of the assigned vessels at the mainworld and the primary refueling point on-station under most circumstances, keeping maximum defensive posture. When not otherwise engaged, the FFP elements patrol randomly in areas not otherwise assigned to fleet elements.

In the event one of the FFP elements needs support and all other FFP ships are occupied, non-emergency support is handled by the escorts assigned to the outer gas giants or the belt. If emergency support is requested, the nearest ship with appropriate capabilities is dispatched.

In the event of an invasion that overwhelms the fleet, assembly points for surviving ships are designated in the outer system and the outermost gas giant. The highest-ranking surviving commander is then tasked with mounting ongoing guerrilla operations to liberate the system.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by robject:
Clarifying questions:

These roughly-10 ships, they almost always pop in somewhere on the 100D spheres of the Gas Giant or 'mainworld'? Does your jump physics (YJP) permit ships to arrive 100D above, say, the north poles of these worlds?

If this were a 3 dimensional game, I'd say yes. TO keep things simple however, we should keep it 2 dimensional

I should take the time to figure out what the 100 diameter limit is for the K3 star and include it in the discussion.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by MrMorden:
Assets assigned as follows:

CVE : Patrol at 100D limit of main world. All 10-20dTon fighters in normal rotation running CAPs from low orbit to ~200D. All Heavy Fighters on Flexible Force Patrol, in groups of 4.

DD 1 : Patrol at 100D limit of main world. Armed with mix of missiles and beam lasers.

DD 2 : Patrol at Gas Giant 1, from refueling height up to 100D. Armed with laser weapons.

Escorts 1,2 : Patrol with DD1.

Escorts 3,4 : Patrol with DD2.

Escorts 5,6 : Patrol between outer gas giants.

Escorts 7,8 : Patrol Belt Area.

Escorts 9-12: Flexible Force Patrol. These are the ships that will answer most trouble calls, supported by Heavy Fighters.

Ah Mr Morden, and interesting set up. I can see by your doctrine what your intentions are to a degree. I do have to wonder however. The asteroid belt is a circular orbit - and with two ships, it would appear your intentions are to patrol somewhere together (or apart I wonder) at the distance specified. I am curious as to why you chose to patrol there?

As for the outer Gas Giants, I can see that perhaps you desire to determine if ships are jumping into system or out of system. Assuming that you have a trained sensor operator, he has a roughly 50% chance of detecting a ship exiting from jump space up to roughly 7 million miles.

So we're looking at 4 ships at the main world, and three ships at the refining location, with the remaining ships on roving patrol. I can't really "fault" your dispositions. However, if you could explain why you've set a few ships on patrols where they are - perhaps we can see what is going on in your mind

Specifically, why the asteroid belt and the outer gas giant (presumably the one that is next outwards after the refueling point?) If a "pirate" is discovered in the asteroid belt, what is expected to be done?

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Hal:
As a spin off from another thread, I'm opening this thread up for *all* comers regardless of what game system they are talking about (well TNE might be a bit difficult because of the fact that they have limited duration "burns" - greatly complicating their lives )

Actually because long in-system transits are usually better done with jumps even for a thrusters-equipped ship it’s not quite as bad as it seems - HEPlaR’s fuel useage is mainly a problem in combat. That said, in this system HEPlaR transfer times are about the same as a 1G-thruster vessel – the 4G jobs you give in your example are twice as fast if they’re thruster equipped, and should only use jump between GG2 and GG4.

Situation:
As senior officer commanding a task group, you are tasked with patroling the space within the system Ofnoconsequence (totally made up system name). Roughly 10 ships a day come through this system, for which maybe 1 actually hits port at the class C (III) starport.

Astrography:
Star: Ofnoconsequence
Type: K3 Main Sequence
3 planets, 1 belt, 4 gas Giants

Planet of habitation: .499 AU at 48 degrees
terrestial #2: .849 AU at 192 degrees
terrestial #3: 1.199 AU at 15 degrees
belt system: 1.89 AU various degrees
Gas Giant 1: 3.3 AU at 283 degrees
Gas Giant 2: 6.09 AU at 118 degrees
Gas Giant 3: 11.68 AU at 9 degrees
Gas Giant 4: 22.91 AU at 351 degrees

(degrees off due north where due system north is defined as coreward)

Planet of habitation: TTL 9 population factor 8 non-industrial.

Orders: mount an effective patrol using assigned assets. Economic flow of trade must be unhindered. Generally speaking, 60% of ships stop at Gas Giant #1 (where Fueler Incorporated maintains a fuel skimming process). 40% of ships hit the port of call, with only 10% actually unloading freight/cargo - the rest disgorge temporary transit passengers while ship refuels.

Destroy and/or capture any pirates found, report to central fleet headquarters once per week with status updates.

OK - that is the information you as a senior officer will be given. Fleet resources include:

1 CVE - 30 fighters: 4 twenty dton sensor fighters, 10 fifty dton heavy fighters, 16 ten dton light fighters.

2 DD manuever 4 (armament to be decided by you the reader who intends to layout the tactical doctrine you will follow)

12 Destroyer Escorts - Manuever 4 (armament to be chosen as desired)

Assignment: set missions for assets as you see fit and say why. Mission complications will be added after task group has been tasked with orders

Here are the distances of each planet from the rest (the belt distance is a rough average):

[Edit 06NOV2003] To clarify - this table shows the relative distances allowing for the planet's positions as listed by Hal, and not just the distance their orbits are from one and another.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Distance in AU Mainworld terrestial #2 terrestial #3 belt system Gas Giant 1 Gas Giant 2 Gas Giant 3 Gas Giant 4
Mainworld 0 1.29 0.83 1.93 3.61 5.94 11.3 22.64
terrestial #2 1.29 0 2.05 1.98 3.42 5.91 12.53 23.7
terrestial #3 0.83 2.05 0 2.08 3.55 6.47 10.49 21.82
belt system 1.93 1.98 2.08 2.28 3.56 6.24 11.76 22.95
Gas Giant 1 3.61 3.42 3.55 3.56 0 9.32 11.91 21.89
Gas Giant 2 5.94 5.91 6.47 6.24 9.32 0 14.83 27.02
Gas Giant 3 11.3 12.53 10.49 11.76 11.91 14.83 0 12.34
Gas Giant 4 22.64 23.7 21.82 22.95 21.89 27.02 12.34 0</pre>[/QUOTE]For starters, I’m assuming fleet headquarters is one jump away. Assuming that’s the case two DDs need to be assigned to carry messages unless there’s a mail route directly to it – I’m assuming a mail route or a couple of couriers you haven’t mentioned.

Okay, the mission only mentions protecting the flow of trade and doing anti-piracy patrols. No significant belter presence is mentioned, and the outer GGs seem to be unused. This means that there is no requirement for a permanent presence anywhere except GG1 And the mainworld. However a Navy’s job also includes detecting and repelling invasion by other states, so we’ll need keep some sort of eye on the outer GGs, if only to force invaders to stay out in the Kuiper/Oort clouds while they’re doing their spying, etc.

Even assuming that all the fighter have 6G manoeuvre they can’t make any in-system transfers in under 24 hours, so IMO it’s fair to assume they can’t patrol any planet’s space unless they’re based there or the CVE is also there.

Now, onto the actual patrol dispositions (and the logic behind them):

While it’d be nice to use the CVE and it’s fighters around GG1 because of the large volume of space inside its 100 dia limit, it’s unlikely to have the acceleration to be able to rapidly return to the mainworld in the event of an invasion and, despite my suspicion as to the utility of fighters, it very probably represents the major fleet asset in the system. However there’s no reason some of it’s fighters can’t be on detached duty off the Fueler Incorporated facility.

Mainworld: Both DDs and the CVE with a DE as an escort (I don’t normally believe in escorts, but carriers are an exception – an escort means a smaller CAP and therefore more offensive punch). Primary patrolling will be by groups of four fighters, using both heavy and light. About three such groups will be in space at any one time, with the rest on the CVE for maintenance and as ready craft in case of emergency or enemies. Also three DEs on general patrol, search & rescue duties, etc. (this number will include any ships in for routine repair, etc., so in fact probably only one or two couple are actually available for routine duties at any one time).

The CVE will not move far from the planet and its fighter patrols will cover the volume immediately around the planet (out to about 100 diameters). As the mainworld is probably inside the star’s 100 diameter limit the DDs and the three ‘loose’ DEs will patrol further out, with the DDs in the volume near the mainworld and the DEs covering the rest as well as they may (there’s just too much surface for there to be complete coverage).

These patrols will be more aggressive towards pirates than the outer system patrols, as there’s more to protect here, and help is closer if they get shot up.

Gas Giant 1: Four DEs and the four sensor fighters. These vessels job is to patrol the GG and it’s assorted moons and belts, primarily for pirates, as well as to provide assistance to distressed civilians. The vessels will patrol singly, and the fighters are not expected to engage any pirates they detect, but to shadow them and summon help.

The rest of the system: The remaining four DEs will patrol the rest of the system as single units. A course of patrol might be something like: Terr #2, Belt, GG2, GG3, GG4, GG1, Belt, Terr #3, Mainworld, and repeat. Assuming a day or so at each point in this patrol a ship will be at each location for about one day in nine, and by changing the routine from time to time (which will be sensible as the planets orbits change their relative positions anyway) this interval will be unpredictable. These patrols’ task is to deal with any pirates they encounter if they’re strong enough, and to otherwise observe them and gather data for later analysis. If they encounter any sort of invasion force or pirate fleet they are only to observe until they’re attacked and then they’re to flee for the mainworld.

The use of tight-beam comms systems to keep the flag informed of developments is standard practice, of course.

 

[The Oz]

Did it strike anybody else that this was too much force for the stated mission? We have 15 warships dedicated to guarding only 10 merchies a week, against a threat of just pirates. That's a pretty high ratio of warships to merchantmen for not much threat.

I'd expect something like a couple squadrons of local fighters/SDBs (in the Fifth Frontier War game worlds of this TL and Population have 10 SDBs) and maybe a pair of Type T 400dton patrol corvettes or something similar, and that's all, under normal peacetime conditions.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Did it strike anybody else that this was too much force for the stated mission? We have 15 warships dedicated to guarding only 10 merchies a week, against a threat of just pirates. That's a pretty high ratio of warships to merchantmen for not much threat.

I'd expect something like a couple squadrons of local fighters/SDBs (in the Fifth Frontier War game worlds of this TL and Population have 10 SDBs) and maybe a pair of Type T 400dton patrol corvettes or something similar, and that's all, under normal peacetime conditions.

It did strike me as being the case, yes. However it's also utterly inadequate for any real military presence if they also have to conduct anti-piracy patrols, IMO.

If the star's 100 diameter limit doesn't count things become easier - at that point you can cut the mainworld's patrols back considerably. Also if you had less forces you would cut out the patrols to un-exploited bodies and ignore dodgy activities at them unless they were clearly a threat to legitemate traffic at the mainworld and GG1.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Did it strike anybody else that this was too much force for the stated mission? We have 15 warships dedicated to guarding only 10 merchies a week, against a threat of just pirates. That's a pretty high ratio of warships to merchantmen for not much threat.

I'd expect something like a couple squadrons of local fighters/SDBs (in the Fifth Frontier War game worlds of this TL and Population have 10 SDBs) and maybe a pair of Type T 400dton patrol corvettes or something similar, and that's all, under normal peacetime conditions.

Ah Mr. Oz

I am delighted to hear you make this observation. Lets take this a step further. Before, I mentioned that I would take the time to present "problems" for military forces deployed. I would like very much for you to email me at hal@buffnet.net that I can task you with an assignment related to this. That assignment of course, pertains to this task in that you've now nominated yourself (unless you'd rather decline) for the commander of the OPFOR.

Specifically, the ability to attain stated objectives that would pertain to a pirate's point of view.

If you decline this assignment, I would be more than happy to assign this role to another.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Did it strike anybody else that this was too much force for the stated mission? We have 15 warships dedicated to guarding only 10 merchies a week

It should be pointed out, that the statement of fact above is in error Mr. Oz. Please hand in a 10 page essay on the battle of Two Suns opening salvo and why inattention to facts cost the Zhodani force a cruicial asset of surprise in that battle.

Specifically Mr. Oz, the statement was 10 merchies as you call them, per day. This equates to approximately 70 merchant ships per week. Tonnage of those ships, as you may have noticed, was not specified.

(in an aside: I'm looking at this more along the lines of an actual Tactical debates environment than just as a forum for talking about traveller

As a consequence, the assignment was done for flavor, not any expectation that you'd do it! Further note, this is more or less modelled after STARSHIP TROOPERS regards to the tone of give and take discussion about military matters

)

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Rupert:
If the star's 100 diameter limit doesn't count things become easier - at that point you can cut the mainworld's patrols back considerably.

I checked to see what the expected 100 diameter point would be on a K III main sequence star would be. This translates to roughly 1.312 AU's. This of course means that the habitable planet is not exactly easily reached via Jump. This both simplifies the problem and makes it more difficult.

 

[Jame]

If I were in command here, I'd want a no more than one or two 20k-ton cruisers, an equal number of DDs, maybe five to ten DEs and about a squadron or two of Type T patrol ships and/or SDBs. For peace-time. The other, larger force would be suitable for a multiple-system patrol group, seeing each system for a couple of days each month.

Pardon if I missed something, but this topic's a bit too wide...

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Jame:
If I were in command here, I'd want a no more than one or two 20k-ton cruisers, an equal number of DDs, maybe five to ten DEs and about a squadron or two of Type T patrol ships and/or SDBs. For peace-time. The other, larger force would be suitable for a multiple-system patrol group, seeing each system for a couple of days each month.

Pardon if I missed something, but this topic's a bit too wide...

Hello Jame and welcome to the discussion. I note that you've set up your ideal patrol force requirements. As you've already likely read the start up information - the task group comprises of 1 CVE, 2 DD's, and 12 DE's. Assuming that the planet is not rich enough to have been provided with System Defense boats how would you task your forces to cover your mandate? Further assume that the planet's class III (Type C) starport is of no real help in the task set for you.

As for an alternative force set up - it would indeed be interesting to see how the others would feel about having to use the forces you suggest.

To the best of my knowledge - System Defense boats tend to be those that are local defense navies or subsector navy assets. The Force that was postulated would have been drawn from an Imperial Naval force. Were this planet industrialized enough to build its own Planetary Defense force, it would be assumed that such System Defense boats would be Bandersnatch class craft at 3G armed with 4 heavy laser turrets. Type T class patrol cruisers would likely be Rudra class T patrol cruisers with J1, M2 capability - armed with missiles launchers and lasers.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, how many ships would you propose be a "squadron" of SDB's and T-Cruisers? I am of course, always amendable to changing the start up forces

 

[Jame]

Well, to me a squadron
is about 10-12
ships. Hence two would
be 20-24 ships.
If the planet isn't
industrialized, then
I'm probably not going
to defend it much unless
it's on a main trade route
or I work for the system.
If this is on a trade route,
and I have your force, then
I'd leave one of the DDs and
3-4 DEs at the mainworld and
put the rest out among the
gas giants. The CVE, one DD
and two of the DEs will cover
GG1, and two each will patrol
the other three GGs. I'd ask
for a couple of high-maneuver
patrol cruisers to police the
space between the outer GGs.
I need some time to think
about how to use my force.

Pardon all the returns,
but this topic is coming
wide in my browser, and I
want to combat this.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Hal:
I checked to see what the expected 100 diameter point would be on a K III main sequence star would be. This translates to roughly 1.312 AU's. This of course means that the habitable planet is not exactly easily reached via Jump. This both simplifies the problem and makes it more difficult.

That's further out than I thought - it covers all of the inner planets. This means they probably don't need more than a checkup every couple of months and a robot sensor satellite in orbit around them.

 

[savage]

Not to undermind this track but ...
-What is the budget?
-Is this an imperium operation or in system?
-Is this a border world to a hostile area or deep
in core?

It appears to me that is being approached backwards. The US might determine its preferred forces at a location but more than likely it determines the amount it can afford to have patrol a location.

This was not different, when men braved the oceans in sail ships. It depended on what the govt could afford.

Savage

 

[Anthony]

As a side point: if 10 ships/day come through, that means there are a total of around 100 ships on this 'leg' of the journey at any one time. Assuming you're paying for the patrols as an extra cost on top of shipping, at, say, a 10% increase in shipping cost, that's only the equivalent of around 10 merchant ships. Which probably means one jump-capable ship and a couple fighters at each location; DDs are gross overkill.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Anthony:
As a side point: if 10 ships/day come through, that means there are a total of around 100 ships on this 'leg' of the journey at any one time. Assuming you're paying for the patrols as an extra cost on top of shipping, at, say, a 10% increase in shipping cost, that's only the equivalent of around 10 merchant ships. Which probably means one jump-capable ship and a couple fighters at each location; DDs are gross overkill.

At 10% of the expected shipping you get two Dragons and a dozen fighters for 100 Beowulfs in-system.

In TNE you'd get the same two SDBs, but only half a dozen fighters. If the average merchant is a subbie you can have a couple of Gazelles and twenty fighters or three 400 DTon patrol cruisers and a dozen fighters, or a Chrysanthemum DE and 6-8 fighters. You only get about half a Midu, though.

 

[MrMorden]

Originally posted by Hal:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MrMorden:
Assets assigned as follows:

CVE : Patrol at 100D limit of main world. All 10-20dTon fighters in normal rotation running CAPs from low orbit to ~200D. All Heavy Fighters on Flexible Force Patrol, in groups of 4.

DD 1 : Patrol at 100D limit of main world. Armed with mix of missiles and beam lasers.

DD 2 : Patrol at Gas Giant 1, from refueling height up to 100D. Armed with laser weapons.

Escorts 1,2 : Patrol with DD1.

Escorts 3,4 : Patrol with DD2.

Escorts 5,6 : Patrol between outer gas giants.

Escorts 7,8 : Patrol Belt Area.

Escorts 9-12: Flexible Force Patrol. These are the ships that will answer most trouble calls, supported by Heavy Fighters.

Ah Mr Morden, and interesting set up. I can see by your doctrine what your intentions are to a degree. I do have to wonder however. The asteroid belt is a circular orbit - and with two ships, it would appear your intentions are to patrol somewhere together (or apart I wonder) at the distance specified. I am curious as to why you chose to patrol there?

As for the outer Gas Giants, I can see that perhaps you desire to determine if ships are jumping into system or out of system. Assuming that you have a trained sensor operator, he has a roughly 50% chance of detecting a ship exiting from jump space up to roughly 7 million miles.

So we're looking at 4 ships at the main world, and three ships at the refining location, with the remaining ships on roving patrol. I can't really "fault" your dispositions. However, if you could explain why you've set a few ships on patrols where they are - perhaps we can see what is going on in your mind

Specifically, why the asteroid belt and the outer gas giant (presumably the one that is next outwards after the refueling point?) If a "pirate" is discovered in the asteroid belt, what is expected to be done? </font>[/QUOTE]Since the outer gas giants would make perfect refueling spots for an inbound force that wanted to refuel before attacking, it makes sense to keep at least a couple of ships "watching the back door". The belt probably has prospectors & corporate assets working it, and those folks need some measure of protection also. Having the flexible force keep an eye on the uninhabited planets makes some sense too, to make sure invaders cannot use them to hide operations.

There are not many places in space that make logical places for either attack or ambush. The two primary ones are the 100D limit (to get ships before they hit the limt or when they come out of jump with fuel spent) and the refueling points (to attack vulnerable ships refuelling and deep in a strong gravity well).

 

[Jame]

Two points:
1. Why not just put in two Midus, a few (5-10) 1k ton ships, and a few 400 - 800 ton ships, plus the carrier and the fighters?

2: What tech level are the ships, and why are we defending this planet?

Edit: Point 3: if the planet is TTL 9 and nonindustrial, is the only reason we're defending it the port and the refueling points? And why hasn't the planet at least tried to industrialize for TTL 9?

Edit 2: I thought I saw an "Official ImpNav Website" a while ago, with GURPS versions of several ships, but it seems to have gone the way of websites (hopefully CotI won't do the same). It had an interesting illos of the ImpNav uniform, too...