Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
Nope, its from a newsletter I have been toying with writing.
If you like, I can send you the newsletter the whole article is in. Its in PDF format, so it'd be easy to email.
Tanker Jump Points (or: how to make a subsector J-1 capable)
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
- Start date
Nope, its from a newsletter I have been toying with writing.
If you like, I can send you the newsletter the whole article is in. Its in PDF format, so it'd be easy to email.
jfetters
SOC-14 1K
Wow, I'm glad you all like working on this!
Well, its a cool idea that I have always liked. This concept reminds me of an issue of the old Marvel Star Wars comic (that came out after the first movie) that was set on an interstellar space station (or it could have been a station in an empty system, I forget).
Its just that any time I started looking at what would be required to build it, I would run screaming into the night.
Interesting location!
Or, you could place a habitat in the middle for Zero-G needs (if you are having the ring rotate for gravity generation - just an idea).
jfetters
SOC-14 1K
PM coming your way...
Garyius2003
SOC-13
I think it would be very likely that refueling points for the rift would be made, at sublight.
Assume that you have a huge tank of water/ice/fuel made and filled, most likely of hull armor.
Use an iceball for armor in front, or lots of extra armor up there.
Attach an M-drive and quarters module, boost for a few months (assume topping out at 1/4 c to avoid dying when they hit a marble; and avoid time issues that make my head hurt).
Jump ship comes out and grabs the quarters and the drives.
Tank wanders out for years.
Crew starts new tank, and new tank, and new tank.
Crew jumps out with drives and quarters modules and starts slowing tank one down.
Tank one stops J-X out.
Some other crew does it on the other side if needed.
Repeat.
Bingo, for a few billion credits the rift is bridged. You lose the capital costs for the tanks, and maybe they could be boosted back if their value equaled the cost of the crewing and drive cost. Everything else is reusable and being used for profit. If your Traveller allows bots the crewing costs could even be low.
All you need is a customer base who will pay 80,000Cr per ton of fuel.
The only way this doesn't work is if your Traveller requires a mass to jump to, or your Traveller does not allow big changes in real space speed through jumping.
Classic Traveller proof at TL13:
Assume 10,000 ton tank and armor 4. 500 MCr per tank. (Needs based on volume expected years later --assume one per month) 12 needed per year=6,000MCr
Quarters/Bridge/Drives module: 1,500 MCr (Assume one tank per month, three months to speed up or slow down: 6 needed, 7 for a spare) 7 needed=10,500MCr (One time cost)
Jump ship which can jump J2 and carry 1,000 tons (I get 918 for the tank drives/bridge/quarters package) MCr 485 (Plus one spare) 2 at MCr970
First year capital cost = 18,000 MCr
Second year capital cost = 6,000 MCr + replacement budget =8,000MCr
Assume 300 crew needed (300*4,000 per month) = Yearly 14.5 MCr.
Assume 10% Maint/Ops costs (for drives modules and jump ships) Yearly= 1,150MCr
Annual costs (After year one) 9,165MCr.
So long as you sell 9,000 tons of fuel monthly for more than 850MCr the plan makes commerical sense. The question is who would pay 80,000Cr per ton.
Assume that you have a huge tank of water/ice/fuel made and filled, most likely of hull armor.
Use an iceball for armor in front, or lots of extra armor up there.
Attach an M-drive and quarters module, boost for a few months (assume topping out at 1/4 c to avoid dying when they hit a marble; and avoid time issues that make my head hurt).
Jump ship comes out and grabs the quarters and the drives.
Tank wanders out for years.
Crew starts new tank, and new tank, and new tank.
Crew jumps out with drives and quarters modules and starts slowing tank one down.
Tank one stops J-X out.
Some other crew does it on the other side if needed.
Repeat.
Bingo, for a few billion credits the rift is bridged. You lose the capital costs for the tanks, and maybe they could be boosted back if their value equaled the cost of the crewing and drive cost. Everything else is reusable and being used for profit. If your Traveller allows bots the crewing costs could even be low.
All you need is a customer base who will pay 80,000Cr per ton of fuel.
The only way this doesn't work is if your Traveller requires a mass to jump to, or your Traveller does not allow big changes in real space speed through jumping.
Classic Traveller proof at TL13:
Assume 10,000 ton tank and armor 4. 500 MCr per tank. (Needs based on volume expected years later --assume one per month) 12 needed per year=6,000MCr
Quarters/Bridge/Drives module: 1,500 MCr (Assume one tank per month, three months to speed up or slow down: 6 needed, 7 for a spare) 7 needed=10,500MCr (One time cost)
Jump ship which can jump J2 and carry 1,000 tons (I get 918 for the tank drives/bridge/quarters package) MCr 485 (Plus one spare) 2 at MCr970
First year capital cost = 18,000 MCr
Second year capital cost = 6,000 MCr + replacement budget =8,000MCr
Assume 300 crew needed (300*4,000 per month) = Yearly 14.5 MCr.
Assume 10% Maint/Ops costs (for drives modules and jump ships) Yearly= 1,150MCr
Annual costs (After year one) 9,165MCr.
So long as you sell 9,000 tons of fuel monthly for more than 850MCr the plan makes commerical sense. The question is who would pay 80,000Cr per ton.
Last edited:
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
(or: another alternative)
Well, to throw my confusion into the mix
For this specific situation at least my first thought on seeing the title of the thread would probably be the best, economically and practically, though it requires a couple presumptions.
Presumption one - YTU allows jumps to "empty" hexes and aiui that is the default.
Presumption two - YTU allows drop tanks for commercial shipping which aiui is not the default.
You see where I'm going with this of course. You simple set up a drop-tank service at each end, Boughene and Efate, and charge a service fee to provide the Free-Traders and other J1 ships with drop-tanks and fuel. They jump out with a full tank, and full holds etc, and then jump again from the mid point. A 2 week trip overall.
Well, to throw my confusion into the mix
For this specific situation at least my first thought on seeing the title of the thread would probably be the best, economically and practically, though it requires a couple presumptions.
Presumption one - YTU allows jumps to "empty" hexes and aiui that is the default.
Presumption two - YTU allows drop tanks for commercial shipping which aiui is not the default.
You see where I'm going with this of course. You simple set up a drop-tank service at each end, Boughene and Efate, and charge a service fee to provide the Free-Traders and other J1 ships with drop-tanks and fuel. They jump out with a full tank, and full holds etc, and then jump again from the mid point. A 2 week trip overall.
There's some mention of deep space depots as they're called in T4/pocket empires, one of the main ways if you can't control a world to gain access to other worlds. It's geared more for abstracted attack/defense/transport/jump factors, so takes some sort of translation to MCr for working up designs from it (the system has one conversion rate but it's waayy to high to my mind). They are used to store fuel (for this J1 access you're talking about) and stores (life support recharges and missiles maybe)
I always thought the 5kt fleet escort from the fighting ship supplements with a little tweaking could work for that somehow (maybe even a lab ship, or xboat tender for that matter). Looking to make a 10kt tanker ship. I don't have the gurps starport thing some have mentioned but that could be used for determining needed capacities for a proper starport designation. Past some point, wouldn't it end up being a D000111-9 or maybe populations in the hundreds (or thousands?!) world equivalent, just without a star.
Good thread and neat ideas goin on here. Good adventure seeds, the deep space port/station thing.
I always thought the 5kt fleet escort from the fighting ship supplements with a little tweaking could work for that somehow (maybe even a lab ship, or xboat tender for that matter). Looking to make a 10kt tanker ship. I don't have the gurps starport thing some have mentioned but that could be used for determining needed capacities for a proper starport designation. Past some point, wouldn't it end up being a D000111-9 or maybe populations in the hundreds (or thousands?!) world equivalent, just without a star.
Good thread and neat ideas goin on here. Good adventure seeds, the deep space port/station thing.
True. If there are drop tanks, the point is almost moot. I'd have to make it a commercial port outside of the Starport Authority. I was thinking Tukera in my original post, but I'm not sure if that'd work either. Maybe a trade consortium between the four worlds might be enough reason. Or Tukera negotiating a trade consortium with Tukera being the 5th party involved. Add a Vargr Trading Post with it and then it looks even more viable.
Treated as an independent world and all taxes except Imperial would go to the station. With it being a consortium of the four worlds, the fuel imported from each world would be free to aquire. Then they are just paying the crew for pumping the fuel, transit time, and life support. If they own the tankers.
Profits split between the worlds? Or left to improve the station? Aquiring the tanker ships to begin with (as well as the station itself) would probably be highly expensive. That could be where Tukera comes in. But with the fuel being free, it should pay for itself. Just a matter of time.
I think.
Its just that any time I started looking at what would be required to build it, I would run screaming into the night.
Or, you could place a habitat in the middle for Zero-G needs (if you are having the ring rotate for gravity generation - just an idea).
I'm almost but not quite running screaming yet. It's still fun.
Hmmm, I didn't think about that - have the ring rotate for gravity. It would save on gravity generators. I just thought a ring would be easier to dock with if it's just to refuel.
Now I'm thinking more of a saucer shape with modular connecting ports above and below. Like a spinning top. Habitation modules connected to the top of the saucer and fuel storage modules below. And you could add more saucer/hubs at each end to extend it.
If there was a nice nebula in the area, it could make a vacation spot.
jfetters
SOC-14 1K
How did you learn of Imperial Military sercerts?
The Military have been using this type of technique for centuries (IMTU).
To help keep secert what fleets are manuevering and what ships they contain the military has setup remote transfer points 1 jump away from selected planets. These planets normally have at least 1 planet 1 Jump away to help hid the amount of misdirected traffic making deliveries.
Many Mule jump ships are sent on a regular schedule loaded with supplies.
Mule Jump Ships are similar to modular ships (GT addresses this in great detail in their Modular Cutter book.) It is not unusally for Mules to jump into a section with no modules, pick some up and move on. Mules are used almost exclusively by the Military. When ever a used Mule ship is available from the military the computer and sensors have been stripped off before sell.
The cargo pods the Mule use are designed for takedown/scrapping. One flaw with this cargo pod is potential leaking +1% per liquid haul per jump and an occasional complete failure with a MTBF at about 12 months, with chance being +1% per month per jump after 12 months (plus any build up from hauling liquids). (to randomize the actually MTBF month d4+10)
The pods are very standardize in design and can be used to build other buildings and with some light construction/manufacturing equipment can be reprocessed into other material usage.
At some transfer points the military (rumor) are building space depots/stations. At most points Mules will retrive or return with empty cargo pods.
With the lack of stellar objects (except in the cloud regions) these transfer points are easy to defend against most all whom would try due to the open sensor readings. The only way to successfully take over or destory a transfer point is:
1 need to know where it is
2 Need to be able to jump directly or as close as possible to the point/group/depot
3 Need organized fleet/attack and enough firepower to take the depot out
Besides being some what to totally secert the 3 reason above is why empty sector transfer points exist.
They are so secert that only those whom need to know are told and not all Emperors or Admirals know that they exist.
Dave Chase
The Military have been using this type of technique for centuries (IMTU).
To help keep secert what fleets are manuevering and what ships they contain the military has setup remote transfer points 1 jump away from selected planets. These planets normally have at least 1 planet 1 Jump away to help hid the amount of misdirected traffic making deliveries.
Many Mule jump ships are sent on a regular schedule loaded with supplies.
Mule Jump Ships are similar to modular ships (GT addresses this in great detail in their Modular Cutter book.) It is not unusally for Mules to jump into a section with no modules, pick some up and move on. Mules are used almost exclusively by the Military. When ever a used Mule ship is available from the military the computer and sensors have been stripped off before sell.
The cargo pods the Mule use are designed for takedown/scrapping. One flaw with this cargo pod is potential leaking +1% per liquid haul per jump and an occasional complete failure with a MTBF at about 12 months, with chance being +1% per month per jump after 12 months (plus any build up from hauling liquids). (to randomize the actually MTBF month d4+10)
The pods are very standardize in design and can be used to build other buildings and with some light construction/manufacturing equipment can be reprocessed into other material usage.
At some transfer points the military (rumor) are building space depots/stations. At most points Mules will retrive or return with empty cargo pods.
With the lack of stellar objects (except in the cloud regions) these transfer points are easy to defend against most all whom would try due to the open sensor readings. The only way to successfully take over or destory a transfer point is:
1 need to know where it is
2 Need to be able to jump directly or as close as possible to the point/group/depot
3 Need organized fleet/attack and enough firepower to take the depot out
Besides being some what to totally secert the 3 reason above is why empty sector transfer points exist.
They are so secert that only those whom need to know are told and not all Emperors or Admirals know that they exist.
Dave Chase
Jeff,
Sadly, AFAIK, S9 is the only mention of the Gorodish in canon. Can you imagine the number and/or size of the riders she carries? Yikes!
I was only able to read that legendary Exondias Starport article in White Dwarf(?) once or twice but it still sticks with me after 25+ years. Swycaffer definitely opened my eyes to many, many, many different possibilities for MTU.
Maccat has wisely pointed out that T4's Pocket Empires has actual rules for building deep space 'depots'. While the rules are geared towards PE's highly abstract 'factor' style of ship description and combat. If memory serves - and sometimes it doesn't! - there is a 'conversion' between PE factors and MCr floating somewhere out there in cyberspace.
Anyone care to supply it? Anyone? Bueller?
Have fun,
Bill
Cool - is the quote from the JTAS article? I am also envisioning a bunch of "amateur prospectors" in the worlds bordering the rift. A bunch of amateur (or not) astronomers scanning space to look for those objects, maybe sell the information to someone who can exploit it.[/QUOTE]
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
I figured out my own conversion. Not sure where it is right now, but I'd be interested to compare it with someone else's.
Cool page!
If I get a chance this weekend, I'm going to work up a drawing of the concept.
Butch Clor
SOC-5
Large Ships and Riders
In reference to Grodish, The article in Fighting ships said that the Monitor replaced one of Grodish's 8 riders.
[/QUOTE]
In reference to Grodish, The article in Fighting ships said that the Monitor replaced one of Grodish's 8 riders.
jfetters
SOC-14 1K
Jim, actually - no worries though.
The board used to have my full name before the software upgrade and now I only get my login name. Yes - it was an outstanding article. It originally came from Dragon magazine, actually, and the issue still pops up on eBay from time to time. I was able to grab just the Exondias pull-out a couple years ago for a couple of bucks.
I didn't know about this, so thanks to Maccat. I don't think I got this far the last time I started reading the PDF.
But given the fact that the games that PE is used to run are Milieu 0, it would not be unreasonable to think that there would have been a few of these used at that time. Then, for a select few, after the consolidation wars, some of the stations that are located at strategic points could have found some new life as trade connectors. The most important of those could survive 1100 years as upgrading them could be cost effective over the long haul, if trade between two worlds is important enough. It certainly would't cost as much as building one from scratch.
It also wouldn't be the first time a military outpost was retooled for other uses.
just looked it up
one RU = 5,000 MCr on Sylea in Year 0
one Trillion Credits = 200RU
This is the official value of an Imperial Credit ( Crimp)
for various world economies, 1,000,000 Mcr divided by the number of RU's produced by a single labor factor gives the credit value(Mcr) of 1 RU in that world's currency.
Value for 1 cr from world A on world B = (world B RU)/ (world A RU's)
for figuring exchange rates
one RU = 5,000 MCr on Sylea in Year 0
one Trillion Credits = 200RU
This is the official value of an Imperial Credit ( Crimp)
for various world economies, 1,000,000 Mcr divided by the number of RU's produced by a single labor factor gives the credit value(Mcr) of 1 RU in that world's currency.
Value for 1 cr from world A on world B = (world B RU)/ (world A RU's)
for figuring exchange rates
Jim,
Would believe that I meant to type "Jfe" and got the letter bass-ackwards?
Ahhh... Dragon magazine! I''ll try and file that away this time. I'm sure I've been told it was Dragon and not White Dwarf about a dozen times. Now I'll be able to search for it far better!
PE is quite matter of fact about them, strongly implying that deep space refueling bases/depots are no great deal and are used/constructed whenever there is a political, military, and/or economic need for them. Using them to link Mains is a good idea but jump1 vessels aren't exactly the best choice economically, in any of Traveller's economic systems. Still, there could be many places for them thoughout Chartered Space. Jump1 "bridges" may not be common, but "bridges" for jump2 or greater gaps could very well be.
Your idea about military outposts retooled for other uses just screams "Multiple Adventures Seeds!!!". Given the depth of time in the OTU, "bridges" across various gaps could be have been constructed many times. only to be abandoned when the need/desire for them waned.
Leaving GT:ISW's completely idiotic "Brown Dwarf" DSJ solution on the rubbish tip where it belongs, if you realise that the Vilani explored the entire area of the future Ziru Sirka - a polity that was larger than the Third Imperium - with only jump1 drives they must have constructed thousands of deep space fuel caches if only to backstop their use of extra internal fuel tankage.
Pull up any a map of any "core" sector you wish and look at all the two parsec gaps. The Vilani crossed each and every one of them with jump1 alone. They explored the Ziru Sirka with jump1, they conquered the same region with jump2.
Have fun,
Bill
Last edited:
jfetters
SOC-14 1K
Yes - specifically, it is the March 1982 issue, noted as Vol. VI, No. 9 if that helps the eBay search (or Noble Knight, whomever).
Yeah, absolutely. The J-2 ships would make any stations in the one parsec gaps between mains relatively useless except in extreme situations. But I do like the idea of a station for a J-2/3 bridge. Even still, I think it would still be a rare occurrance - a situation where an extremely valuable resource is located on one main or cluster, but not on the other, or in any other easily-reachable source.
Absolutely.
That's a very good point, Bill. And the Vilani are methodical enough to come up with the process to do this and replicate it over hundreds of parsecs - which leads to an interesting conclusion. The Vilani weren't stupid - they would most likely take the path of least resistance in using this to connect those mains and clusters. A serious look at the starmaps could probably yeild some of that information as to where these would be. (Not that I'm going to actually do that of course.
) But there would also be plenty more for the consolidation wars, etc., so that certainly wouldn't be a hard and fast determination for these places.And the Vilani are methodical enough to come up with the process to do this and replicate it over hundreds of parsecs - which leads to an interesting conclusion. The Vilani weren't stupid - they would most likely take the path of least resistance in using this to connect those mains and clusters. A serious look at the starmaps could probably yeild some of that information as to where these would be. (Not that I'm going to actually do that of course.
Jim,
Abso - bloodly - lutely.
Certain "no brainer" gaps may have dozens (!!!) of previously placed fuel caches, each set up sometime in the distant or not so distant past for some vital reason and each then abandoned when that reason no longer was vital. As you also point out, there may be caches in gaps that make no sense in "1105 Terms" but made great sense in "XXXX Pacification Campaign Terms". Naturally, various individuals and organizations may have knowledge of some (not all) of these abandoned caches too.
Cherryh uses this idea several times in her "Merchanter" novels. The EC Fleet, Union, and merchanter families all have somewhat secret deep space "boltholes" to which they can flee when the going gets too rough. IIRC in Downbelow Station, the merchanter armada that eventually liberates Pell from both the EC Fleet and Union gathers and plans at one such bolthole.
These chaces could be anywhere. All you need to do is find them or, more accurately, find the old documentation about them.
Have fun,
Bill
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
And then discover on one such cache station the descendants of the ancient forgotten keepers of the post. And they still believe the Consolidation Wars are ongoing and treat you as enemies since you are obviously not of the Ziru Sirka.
:devil:
jfetters
SOC-14 1K
(adding to ever-growing "need to read list") Thanks for that info, Bill!
Like you said - the ideas here are almost limitless. Not only the adventure to find the information, but what happens when you get there, or when the wrong people find out... If I ever have enough time (HA!) I'll have to outline one of these.
Similar threads
