The Asura

[Tiikeri]

Yep.
That's the thing. Men aren't women. Women aren't men. Many similarities, but many differences.
The basic physiological, psychological, neurological differences in the two sexes will remain even if laws and societal expectations shift. Aspects of humanity shaped by millions of years of evolutionary strategies and pressures aren't just going to suddenly become irrelevant.
You've touched on some of this in your previous posts.


So if he's treating this one with deadly seriousness, it won't be a simple role reversal for comedic effect, but changes in a society faced with an imbalance at the fundamental level of its existence.

That's what I was getting at with my comments in the form of questions. It doesn't even have to be deadly seriousness, just intellectual seriousness.

so if females with the nature of females have the roles and responsibilities of males, how does the expression of those roles change? That's where interacting with the asurans can really be engaging for the players, instead of oh look women acting like men and men acting like women, how funny. Oh look he just made the perfect space casserole! keep that recipe secret so he can be the envy of every asuran male!

f%&# casseroles.

 

[BwapTED]

That's what I was getting at with my comments in the form of questions. It doesn't even have to be deadly seriousness, just intellectual seriousness.

so if females with the nature of females have the roles and responsibilities of males, how does the expression of those roles change? That's where interacting with the asurans can really be engaging for the players, instead of oh look women acting like men and men acting like women, how funny. Oh look he just made the perfect space casserole! keep that recipe secret so he can be the envy of every asuran male!

f%&# casseroles.

Yep!


It can look like comedic role reversal at first, and then you get a bit deeper into the culture through interacting with the Asura and you can see there's more going on.

 

[gchuck]

Comedic affect. I suppose so.

When the PC's first met them, they were pretty wary and confused. The first group of Asurans just appeared to be downright miserable, the outside temp being in the low 30's(c).

As far as the attitudes, Princess Grizelda was very solicitous toward the males in the group, engaging them in conversation, and being generally friendly.

On the other hand, her sister, Eiliesh, wanted nothing to do with any of the males. While not rude, she was rather dismissive of all the males, and seemed hell bent on finding a girlfriend for a few days!

When one of the PC's went to the ship to help with some minor repairs, the Chief Engineer all but propositioned him once the repairs were completed. Much to the delight of the rest of the engineering staff. That got the player really uncomfortable. Yeah! It WAS funny!

I made them to be mildly frustrating, and very challenging to interact with. Asuran society was meant to have gender biases much like the racial biases of the US back in the early years of the 20th century. Yes! Misandry still exists, but a significant portion of the population has realized that it's useless and cruel.

 

[Adam Dray]

Look at Mormon polygamy and the issues that arise. Flipping the genders for the Asura:

Sons are in demand, but are ultimately of low social value.
Daughters are in low demand, but are ultimately of high social value.

Daughters ultimately compete with mothers for men. A lot of mothers ostracize their daughters to get them out of the pool. You'll see more powerful, middle-aged women dating young men. You'll see some daughters turned out on the street, or sent off to a convent, or dropped on a Free Trader destined for some faraway planet.

I can't see men getting their pick of the litter. Women hold the power. Men's moms arrange the marriage for political favor.

Men are breeding stock. This is where you can't flip the gender roles entirely, unless these men are bio-engineered to carry babies in an artificial womb. Otherwise, men are sperm providers for women who want to have children. This can be a "selective service" requirement for all adult men, down at the "bank." Gigolos could be common and accepted as a way to get pregnant, but they'd probably be non-Asuran.

Do women want to be pregnant at all? Maybe all birth is handled in vitro and via incubators. Male caregivers raise the babies and let the moms do "real work."

I'm curious to see how the Asuran matriarchal society is different than a merely flipped patriarchy. Do the women run things without the standard machismo and fragile masculinity? Are politics a lot more subtle and complicated, leaving male foreigners at a serious disadvantage socially?

Is crime different among the Asurans? In a female-dominated society, does crime by women increase and crime by men decrease? Or does crime just diminish overall? With all these extra unmarried men roaming the street, does crime increase greatly?

Do Asuran women see men as weak and fragile and too delicate for dirty work, or are their men tough and strong but just not in charge? If strong, I can see stern Asuran lady-bosses running crime syndicates with men doing most of the wetwork and being happy to do it.

You could take things in a weirder direction, with a "queen bee" organization and specialized male roles: soldier, drone, breeder, etc.

If you look at traditional harem men, many were castrated. Just saying.

By the way, this question was tackled on worldbuilding.stackexchange.com (HTML).

 

[BwapTED]

Re harems and guards:

Adam, do you mean that they'd use female seraglio guards who were sterilized and rendered physically incapable of 'activity' with the men they are guarding?
It makes sense.

 

[BwapTED]

RE crime

My guess is violent crime is comparatively low because women just don't have as much of a natural disposition to violence and this society is short on men and teenage boys.

But there may be a profit in kidnapping males ranging from infants to healthy middle-aged men.

RE geneering, designer babies, etc:

It seems to me that society that possessed the biotech to genetically engineer human beings so that their bloodstreams carried antifreeze proteins should have been able to select for male babies pretty easily.
But they didn't.
Why?

Was the biotech lost?

There was no 'artificial' cause, per se. Just after a couple of hundred years on planet, female births became more prevalent. Over time, the females started to outnumber the males.

As the female population grew, so did the views on politics, and societal equality change. (Did that make sense?) More and more of the predominant gender began to become disaffected with the governments decisions.
.

This is what I'm getting at. The colonists had the technology to make their children into a new variant race of Humaniti. That's impressive. And it shows a willingness to modify humans. Some cultures might just have dug nice cozy holes and lived underground, insulated from the chill. If you can build a star-ship, I think heating an arcology is no biggie.
Over a couple of centuries, births of male babies dropped.
And nobody said ''let's just use our biotech to make of the babies boys"? They couldn't manage that?

 

[Adam Dray]

I think "women just don't have as much of a natural disposition to violence" is unproven. In our male-dominated society, where women have had a certain role for literally thousands of years, men tend to be more violent than women.

Are Asuran women less muscular than the men? (They don't have to be. It's not a given.)

Kidnapping is the hard way to get a man. It's easier to:

* lure one away from another woman
* hook up with a foreigner

Really, I see this problem solving itself really fast. Heterosexual Asuran women who can't find men will join the Imperial Navy or the equivalent in this setting so they can meet a man.

Oh yeah, there's gonna be a lot of women dating women. If I had to make something up, I'd say that f-f dating and marriage are very common, and probably extramarital f-f foolery is probably overlooked, if not encouraged.

I don't know what I was saying about harems. I forgot the men were in short supply for a minute. With men being scarce, and men not having the same fertility restrictions women have, only the most jealous "queens" would care if their female guards had sex or got knocked up by the men in the household.

Really, monogamy doesn't last long when the sex ratio gets out of balance, except when there is very, very strong cultural/religious oppression, like in Saudia Arabia (130:100 m:f).

 

[Tiikeri]

I'll quibble.

In Asuran society, men have zero intrinsic value.

They're not needed for reproduction, they're not needed for social interaction/marriage, and they've already been mostly eliminated from the work force.

Asuran females prefer to have daughters, leading to a consistent massive gender imbalance for centuries. Their society has successfully adapted to male-less-ness.

Men offer absolutely nothing, and they couldn't even if they wanted to.


Why would Asuran women even bother with them? This is not explained.

The Mormon example:

Sons would not be in demand. They would be in negative demand since Asurans prefer to bear daughters. Sons would have zero social value.

Daughters are in high demand, as mentioned. Daughters have high social value, because they are full members of society. They have bear children and they participate in the economy.

Mothers and daughters wouldn't compete over men, because men aren't needed for anything. If a woman swings that way, and I said if, she'll only be competing with women who want a man's company. It will probably come down to who can make it worth the man's time. But, he will be a luxury, a toy, a kept man. So, I agree the best of men will be with the rich or powerful women, regardless of the women's personal qualities. There's nothing to stop a man from being with a woman he likes, but if he wants a comfortable life, he needs to go for established women who have resources.

I don't see how marriage would exist in Asuran society at all anymore, but if the op says it's in there, it's in there.

I don't think men would be needed as breeding stock either, since with Asura's TL they could combine DNA from two female partners. Given women's penchant for list making when it comes to partners, most men would be eliminated anyway (well, he needs to be over 6 feet tall, handsome, very intelligent, sensitive, happy, with a talent for art, with good eyesight, perfect teeth, this color eyes, no negative genetic predispositions, etcetera ad nauseam, ad infinitum). From tindr research, women reject 80% of men on looks alone. Add genetic analysis to that, are hardly any men will qualify. Let's see, men are about 25% of the Asuran population, and 80% of them will be eliminated on looks alone. Not looking good.

IMO crime would be very different. There would be much less physical violence and far more social violence. Ostracism, workplace mobbing, emotional abuse, all the female social hierarchy games would go completely unchecked. Social competition at work would be intense, and since they're all women HR isn't going to swoop in and save anybody's bacon. Police aren't going to respond over people's hurt feelings, even if it's a rampant social ill. People wouldn't know any other way. Depression, self-hate, and suicide would rise. Young women entering a new workplace would probably be demeaned while being forced to smile and take it.

That could be a reason some Asuran females still take up with men: men want them and value them, just because they're women. With a man, women can relax and be loved. But, taking up with a man could be jumped on as a sign of weakness by other women. Mockery and ostracism could await any women who is discovered.

Unmarried men wouldn't cause crime because anyone who stepped out of line would most likely be shot or imprisoned quickly. The police would investigate, the victim would say "I don't know it was some man," and the police would round up all the men and torture them until they found the perp. Then the politicians would enact polices to control men. Implanted RFID tags, special co-ed neighborhoods which men need a pass to leave, or just isolated labor camps where men can live out their useless lives doing factory work or resource extraction to pay back women who are so generous and kind to provide a nice factory for them to work in and a nice bunkhouse for them to live in. All that electrified barbed wire doesn't pay for itself you know, and casserole isn't free. Also, the brainwashing would be extreme. Your poor self-sacrificing mother wanted a child so much, but you robbed her of the daughter she wanted, because you're a boy! It's the least you could do to learn to cook a good casserole!

Off Topic:

I would appreciate it if anybody would look over the story I wrote in the library section and leave some comments so I could improve. 700 views and not one comment.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=38719

 

[Adam Dray]

This thread is becoming a sort of Rorschach test.

 

[Tiikeri]

It's more like working through the logical consequences of what the op has stated is true about the asurans.

 

[BwapTED]

Yup.


It's been a fun thread.

I might try making my own gynarchy/matriarchy for Traveller.

EDIT

I just rolled up a world and threw together some quickie notes.

It's posted in the Scout Service section.



Back on the thread's main topic, is there any chance we will see a UWP for the Asura homeworld?

 

[gchuck]

A UWP is forthcoming.
I can't find LBB#3! I may be forced to use LBB#6, though that's a little more detail than I'm wanting to put into it.

I'll add more as it comes to me, or I consider all the suggestions made here.

 

[gchuck]

Asuran society additions (another small facet if you wish to use it)

A great many of the population (I'll leave the details up to the GM) will have stable and loving relationships with multiple 'wives', and a single husband. Sharing the upbringing of any children produced.

The husbands will be responsible for basic care and feeding of children.

Any grandchildren resulting from the marriage will be of tremendous social status for the family group.

Family ties are of the utmost importance to the average Asuran, and hold a great amount of sway in matters of business and government.

Whereas females are dominant, daughters are predominant in importance for the vast amount of society, to carry on the name, or for succession in business.

Same sex relationships, are an accepted part of the society, and many produce children with in vitro births.

 

[BwapTED]

PM with stuff related to Asura...


I will edit climate and skin tone notes and post, since you liked it.

edited

Asur
(Asura home-world)


STARPORT A (excellent TL 13 facilities, shipyards build Asuran merchant and patrol vessels)
SIZE 5 (smaller than Terra but not a major difference in local surface gravity)
ATMOSPHERE 5 (thin, sea level pressures resemble Terran conditions at higher altitudes)
HYDROGRAPHY 5 (50% ocean coverage annual average; ice age conditions in winter with sea level and coastline changes, rapid glaciation)
POPULATION: 6
GOVERNMENT: B non-charismatic leader (semi-hereditary empress)
LAW: 4 (off-world men are sometimes inconvenienced by petty, niggling regulations that their female counterparts do not have to deal with)
TECH: D* (tech level 13 in most fields, advanced biotech)
description:
Asur completes an annual trip around its red sun in 1012 days, moving a long elliptical orbit which creates a global deep freeze every winter. Daytime summer highs in the middle latitudes seldom exceed 2 degrees Celsius.
The Asurans, descendants of RoM period colonists, have adapted to the extreme climactic conditions through bioengineering; antifreeze proteins in the circulatory system, hormonal adjustments, and other alterations. Asuran skin hues range from bluish-white to aquamarine. Respiratory adaptions include a 10% increase in lung volume and widened nares; Asurans look thick-chested and big- nosed.
Off-world scientists have speculated that the historical decline in births of Asuran boys and the relatively low testosterone levels among Asuran men may be side effects of the genetic engineering project. The Asuran government long ago stopped all public research into the ‘male question’ and today does not welcome independent inquiry.

Tundra covers half the non-glaciated land area of the planet’s supercontinent, with muskegs, coniferous forest (gene-mod Terran trees), cold desert, and rocky uplands accounting for the remainder.
Native life consists only of microbes, primitive plants, and invertebrates, most species possessing cryobiotic adaptations. Asuran genetic engineers have created several Terran-derived mammal species for different purposes; lapine flopps as pets, non-sentient tallow-whales for meat, and man-sized bearhounds as outdoor rescue and guard animals.

FLOPPS SIDEBAR
Travellers may purchase flopps in Startown for 10 cr. These docile, fat rabbits make excellent handwarmers for visitors uncomfortable in the local chilly conditions. Fashionable Asuran males carry flopps about town in designer handbags. In extended high temperatures—several days at above 20 degrees Celsius—flopps become mangy, irritable beasties that will consume unattended lubricants, gnaw through insulation, and generally make trouble on a starship or in another enclosed space. They seldom survive long in such a state, poisoning themselves or getting fatally injured. Fortunately, heat also makes them infertile.

 

[wellis]

FLOPPS SIDEBAR
Travellers may purchase flopps in Startown for 10 cr. These docile, fat rabbits make excellent handwarmers for visitors uncomfortable in the local chilly conditions. Fashionable Asuran males carry flopps about town in designer handbags. In extended high temperatures—several days at above 20 degrees Celsius—flopps become mangy, irritable beasties that will consume unattended lubricants, gnaw through insulation, and generally make trouble on a starship or in another enclosed space. They seldom survive long in such a state, poisoning themselves or getting fatally injured. Fortunately, heat also makes them infertile.

So how do flops make good handwarmers? You have to constantly carry them or what?

 

[BwapTED]

So how do flops make good handwarmers? You have to constantly carry them or what?

Keep your hands in your hand bag. Or stick a flopp in your peacoat pockets.
They are good for foot-warmers and lap-warmers too.

I had considered hooked but blunt claws so they can cling to mesh, knits, rough surfaces...

If you have suggestions for improvement, by all means, do share.

 

[wellis]

Keep your hands in your hand bag. Or stick a flopp in your peacoat pockets.
They are good for foot-warmers and lap-warmers too.

I had considered hooked but blunt claws so they can cling to mesh, knits, rough surfaces...

If you have suggestions for improvement, by all means, do share.

What is the temperature that a flopp could potentially die from heatstroke?

Like how cold would you have to make a place be for a flopp to live comfortably in if you took it off of Asur?

 

[BwapTED]

What is the temperature that a flopp could potentially die from heatstroke?

Like how cold would you have to make a place be for a flopp to live comfortably in if you took it off of Asur?

Good questions.

I think flopps thrive at near-freezing temperatures and could potentially die from heartstroke at anything above 25 Celsius.

 

[BwapTED]

PM with stuff related to Asura...


I will edit climate and skin tone notes and post, since you liked it.

edited

Asur
(Asura home-world)


STARPORT A (excellent TL 13 facilities, shipyards build Asuran merchant and patrol vessels)
SIZE 5 (smaller than Terra but not a major difference in local surface gravity)
ATMOSPHERE 5 (thin, sea level pressures resemble Terran conditions at higher altitudes)
HYDROGRAPHY 5 (50% ocean coverage annual average; ice age conditions in winter with sea level and coastline changes, rapid glaciation)
POPULATION: 6
GOVERNMENT: B non-charismatic leader (semi-hereditary empress)
LAW: 4 (off-world men are sometimes inconvenienced by petty, niggling regulations that their female counterparts do not have to deal with)
TECH: D* (tech level 13 in most fields, advanced biotech)
description:
Asur completes an annual trip around its red sun in 1012 days, moving a long elliptical orbit which creates a global deep freeze every winter. Daytime summer highs in the middle latitudes seldom exceed 2 degrees Celsius.
The Asurans, descendants of RoM period colonists, have adapted to the extreme climactic conditions through bioengineering; antifreeze proteins in the circulatory system, hormonal adjustments, and other alterations. Asuran skin hues range from bluish-white to aquamarine. Respiratory adaptions include a 10% increase in lung volume and widened nares; Asurans look thick-chested and big- nosed.
Off-world scientists have speculated that the historical decline in births of Asuran boys and the relatively low testosterone levels among Asuran men may be side effects of the genetic engineering project. The Asuran government long ago stopped all public research into the ‘male question’ and today does not welcome independent inquiry.

Tundra covers half the non-glaciated land area of the planet’s supercontinent, with muskegs, coniferous forest (gene-mod Terran trees), cold desert, and rocky uplands accounting for the remainder.
Native life consists only of microbes, primitive plants, and invertebrates, most species possessing cryobiotic adaptations. Asuran genetic engineers have created several Terran-derived mammal species for different purposes; lapine flopps as pets, non-sentient tallow-whales for meat, and man-sized bearhounds as outdoor rescue and guard animals.

FLOPPS SIDEBAR
Travellers may purchase flopps in Startown for 10 cr. These docile, fat rabbits make excellent handwarmers for visitors uncomfortable in the local chilly conditions. Fashionable Asuran males carry flopps about town in designer handbags. In extended high temperatures—several days at above 20 degrees Celsius—flopps become mangy, irritable beasties that will consume unattended lubricants, gnaw through insulation, and generally make trouble on a starship or in another enclosed space. They seldom survive long in such a state, poisoning themselves or getting fatally injured. Fortunately, heat also makes them infertile.

VERSION 2

Much the same as above, but the planet is even colder and most of the surface water is frozen year round.
Drop Hydrography to 1. If the settlers saw fit to alter their offspring, then the environment had to be very harsh, indeed. Too cold for normal humans to thrive outside tunnels and enviro-suits. Snowball. The 'balmy' tropics hold stretches of tundra, stands of geneered windbreak pines, some brine lakes,etc. Most of the world is either buried under ice is rocky waste, lonely and bereft of animals (on the surface, anyway) bigger than mites. Think Antarctica but less inviting.

Change atmosphere to Standard and drop notes about the natives having wide nares and thick chests.

Up SIZE to 6?

So THE REVISED UWP would be:

A6616B4-D

 

[gchuck]

Asura

Asura has a map placement!

Hex 1414 Phlange subsector F

UWP as per previous post by BwapTED.