The Character of the Port

[Antares Administration]

I noticed that we're dealing with the quantitative and generic aspects in great detail, but we aren't accounting for the fact that identical ports can have very different reasons for existing, or 'characters'.

For example, your Class D port could be the facility at an exclusive resort - 'Platinum' level service, or it could be Mos Eisley! The specs would be exactly the same.

Is there a way that we can set up the tool so that a GM can select the 'flavor' of port that he wants as a starting point?

Possibilities are:

Commercial Port
Passenger Port
Pirate Port
Belter Port
Modern or Archaic
Well-Worn or Brand-Spankin'-New

It seems to me that doing the numbers first and then the fleshing it out might be backward.

My suggestion:

1. Select Port Character
2. Generate Port Details according to Character
3. Add Spice/Detail

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Antares Administration:
I noticed that we're dealing with the quantitative and generic aspects in great detail, but we aren't accounting for the fact that identical ports can have very different reasons for existing, or 'characters'.

For example, your Class D port could be the facility at an exclusive resort - 'Platinum' level service, or it could be Mos Eisley! The specs would be exactly the same.

Is there a way that we can set up the tool so that a GM can select the 'flavor' of port that he wants as a starting point?

Possibilities are:

Commercial Port
Passenger Port
Pirate Port
Belter Port
Modern or Archaic
Well-Worn or Brand-Spankin'-New

To which I would add:
Private/resort
Corporate Owned
Military-port


It seems to me that doing the numbers first and then the fleshing it out might be backward.

My suggestion:

1. Select Port Character
2. Generate Port Details according to Character
3. Add Spice/Detail

Paul Nemeth
AA

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Good Job, Paul!

 

[mad13142000]

I can see your point...But I like randomly generating the bits and then figuring out why and how the bits became said starport...I think it adds spice to the game to generate a 'looser' port on a plum world that the PCs are stuck landing on - The class A was full-up, so we had to go to the class E...(or whatever)
But that's just me...
-MADDog

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by MADDog:
I can see your point...But I like randomly generating the bits and then figuring out why and how the bits became said starport...I think it adds spice to the game to generate a 'looser' port on a plum world that the PCs are stuck landing on - The class A was full-up, so we had to go to the class E...(or whatever)
But that's just me...
-MADDog

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Given some incredulous UWP's , I can see your point, Maddog. Explaining why there's an A-class port on a low pop world TL-7 makes it interesting...
Character in port/ of a port is also determined by type of port, world govt, economics, and need we say it again.."location, location, loaction!"
LOL- ( a D-class port set in a Death Valley, Terran desert world outpost..whooo HOT! Water refuelling extra charge!)--or where it lies along a stellar cluster, or mini-reft,(anywhere where ye need J-3+ to get anywhere else) etc..

 

[Antares Administration]

OK, what if we did a table of mods and shiny stuff for each special type of port. In that case, you'd generate the generic port, and then spice it up using the detail table for the kind of port that you want it to be.

Example Detail Table for a Corporate Port:

a. Company Hanger.
b. Priority handling for corporate vessels.
c. Non-corporate vessels in a segregated area away from the main terminal.
d. Premium pricing to non-corporate users.
e. Reduced prices on company products. Improved prices or reduced port charges for vessels importing raw materials for the corporation.
f. And so on....

Do it as one of those 6x6 or 10x10 tables, and let the GM take as many as they want.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Mythmere]

The reason I did numbers first, followed by a "fleshing out" table was based on considerations of available space. If you start with a meaningful number of "characters" of ports and each of these has a different set of tables, the book is huge and unwieldy (you multiply the tables already listed by the number of character alternatives). If the "character" options don't have their own set of tables, then they might as well be at the back, because they don't actually affect the numbers.
Once again, Paul (AA) has a really good idea. I only wonder if his modular "categories" are better as tables or whether they should be a series of paragraphs describing different possibilities. If enough "types" could be generated with real additions to the "numbers" contained in them, then they could be tables; if you want to distinguish between Mos Eisley and an orderly, clean little star trek port, the "numbers" would be the same - in this case, descriptive paragraphs might be better.

Liam? Editorial call. What should I put in the table of contents?

 

[Jame]

Sounds like a good idea, although to AA and Liam's list I'd add "Size of Port" and "Traffic."

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
The reason I did numbers first, followed by a "fleshing out" table was based on considerations of available space. If you start with a meaningful number of "characters" of ports and each of these has a different set of tables, the book is huge and unwieldy (you multiply the tables already listed by the number of character alternatives). If the "character" options don't have their own set of tables, then they might as well be at the back, because they don't actually affect the numbers.
Once again, Paul (AA) has a really good idea. I only wonder if his modular "categories" are better as tables or whether they should be a series of paragraphs describing different possibilities. If enough "types" could be generated with real additions to the "numbers" contained in them, then they could be tables; if you want to distinguish between Mos Eisley and an orderly, clean little star trek port, the "numbers" would be the same - in this case, descriptive paragraphs might be better.

Liam? Editorial call. What should I put in the table of contents?

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Hmm. As we are along this brainstorming portion of the project, I see Myth's point here. Port character will be a descriptive sentence or two.

Character of the port should come at the end of the USFP-because earlier determinations will affect it. (Like Bases, world Govt type/ownership of port, and law level). Its kind of subjective actually to the GM--if he wants a run down out of the way feeder downport etc, its his her call, even though the rest of the system's ports are tidier, newer etc.
<I cite an example in an upcoming pdf. T20 pub- Starfall/ Landing City D-port here>. AA knows what I'm talking about..

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Jame:
Sounds like a good idea, although to AA and Liam's list I'd add "Size of Port" and "Traffic."

Liam, those will drop out of the Universal Starport Facility Profile, won't they?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mythmere:
The reason I did numbers first, followed by a "fleshing out" table was based on considerations of available space. If you start with a meaningful number of "characters" of ports and each of these has a different set of tables, the book is huge and unwieldy (you multiply the tables already listed by the number of character alternatives). If the "character" options don't have their own set of tables, then they might as well be at the back, because they don't actually affect the numbers.
Once again, Paul (AA) has a really good idea. I only wonder if his modular "categories" are better as tables or whether they should be a series of paragraphs describing different possibilities. If enough "types" could be generated with real additions to the "numbers" contained in them, then they could be tables; if you want to distinguish between Mos Eisley and an orderly, clean little star trek port, the "numbers" would be the same - in this case, descriptive paragraphs might be better.

Liam? Editorial call. What should I put in the table of contents?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hmm. As we are along this brainstorming portion of the project, I see Myth's point here. Port character will be a descriptive sentence or two.

Character of the port should come at the end of the USFP-because earlier determinations will affect it. (Like Bases, world Govt type/ownership of port, and law level). Its kind of subjective actually to the GM--if he wants a run down out of the way feeder downport etc, its his her call, even though the rest of the system's ports are tidier, newer etc.
<I cite an example in an upcoming pdf. T20 pub- Starfall/ Landing City D-port here>. AA knows what I'm talking about.. </font>[/QUOTE]Good points by all! OK, I was starting to lean in this direction, but you guys got there first -

Do the Universal Starport Facilities Profile (USFP) first. That creates a generic port. Then have Character Tables as some of the options for "Fleshing-Out". If I remember correctly, some of the "Fleshing-Out" will be UWP-driven, eg. Water World, or Vacuum. Others will be generic one-offs, eg. "the highport is an excavated moonlet orbiting the prime world". I'd suggest that a subset of the "Fleshing-Out" tables be the option lists for each of the Character types. The format would be, as you've described, a one or two sentence discription for each option on a list. A good example of that type of list/table is the Step 10 - World Government table in the Universe/Worlds Development section of T20 THB.

GT:Starports, by the way, refers to the Starports described by Character types as "Paradigmatic Starports".

For Character types, suggestions so far are:
a. Freight Port
b. Passenger Port
c. Pirate Port (what GT:Starports calls a Tortuga Port)
d. Belter Port
e. Resort/Personal Port
f. Corporate Port
g. Military Port
Should we add h. Scout Port

GT:Starports also has the following:
j. Thin Edge Port - A shadow of its former glory. Mos Eisley or First Landing

k. Ghost Port - abandoned or destroyed. Possibly still useable, but no longer in service.
m. Grand Central Port - A "bustling" port like 'Coruscant' or the port on the cover of the THB. H10 in the Farreach Margravate or Fal in GTC might qualify. Dingir/Solomani Rim or Lunion/Spinward Marches certainly would.
n. Ports Royal - a legitimate port that doesn't ask questions.

Now that I look at it, these two are "fleshing out tables, but not "Character" tables, i.e. do not represent a type of port -
p. Age of Facility (Modern or Ancient)
q. Level of Repair (Well-Worn or Brand-Spankin'-New)

How's that sound?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Liam Devlin]

Definitely a "fleshing out detail" the character of the port should be AA/ Paul. (nice examples on the others).
We're not making a GT-clone, so things like ports ownership still stands in USFP.

EXAMPLE Private- Owned say..M (Military)
then-- if detailed later..

could be a wealthy traveller veteran with large/small following/ A Mercenary base/ or a well settled Pirate Organization, etc..

Now go a step further in detailing:
Openly known as a *Ghost port..
Secretly its a C-class hideout for said Pirates/ Starmercs, Smugglers, etc..to conduct repairs/ strip out captured ships, move hold captives, what have you..

Lotsa good ideas Paul..<nods>, lets be careful we dinnae plagiarize SJG tho..
For Character types, suggestions so far are:
a. Freight Port
b. Passenger Port
c. Pirate Port (what GT:Starports calls a Tortuga Port)
d. Belter Port
e. Resort/Personal Port
f. Corporate Port
g. Military Port
Should we add h. Scout Port

--is repetitive of USFP-port ownership, okay? The rest is good-- the age of the facility, etc.. good stuff.

 

[Antares Administration]

I guess I didn't finish my point, Liam.

Each of the character types has a single d8 or d10 table of "flesh-outs" related to that character type. You gave a very good example for a ghost port. Some of those flesh-outs will incorporate automatic modifiers to the USFP, i.e. +1 landing, -2 warehouses, etc, that would be explained in the flesh-out note.

Here's a quick cut-and-paste from above:

Example Detail Table for a Corporate Port:

1d6
1-2 - Company Hanger.
2 - Priority handling for corporate vessels.
3 - Non-corporate vessels in a segregated area away from the main terminal.
4 - Premium pricing to non-corporate users.
5 - Reduced prices on company products. Improved prices or reduced port charges for vessels importing raw materials for the corporation.

I don't have time to do a sample table right now. Real life is calling. I'll do one when I get back.

Paul Nemeth
AA

p.s. No, I don't want to plagarize SJG either, but character types is a great quick mod.

 

[Mythmere]

The use of templates for archetypal forms of something isn't plagiary. As long as the non-generic names ("thin edge" is an example) and game mechanics aren't stolen, I think there is no danger of a legal problem.
We have two ideas on the table for adding flavor to the numbers. One idea is mine, to use a few tables that will add an odd or distinctive attribute to the port. The other, which will work in parallel, is Paul's idea to modify the numbers themselves in response to a referee-selected template for the port. This is a valid game mechanic regardless of what SJG has done (and I haven't read their book, so I'm confident that I'm not being influenced by their proprietary content).
The following archetypes existed before SJG's book, and aren't owned by SJG:
corporate port (these exist in the real world)
pirate haven
legitimate port with loose customs enforcement
mos eisley / run-down tough town
cattle town / metal town / other commodity
military port
alien interface port (near or on alien planet)
divided jurisdiction port (East/West Berlin)
theocratic port
smuggler port (small, insular, secretive)
small town junction
boom town
casino town
ghost town
partially abandoned town
gang-rule town (or feral, per Mad Max)
mysterious culture town (1920's inscrutable natives: Chinese, Indians, Egyptians)
guilty town (secret human sacrifice or other nasty Innsmouth sort of skeleton in the closet)

Those that would affect the structure of the port would fall into Paul's rubric (pirate town, for example)

Those that *merely* add flavor would be candidates for inclusion in my tables. Paul's point is that the ref can insert his own choices early in the process to affect the structure of the starport. My point - not that it's necessarily an either-or - is that each and every additional table adds complexity and effort to the process. Keep in mind how much all of us want a computer generator for T20 character generation; that's to lower the effort of complexity. Complexity is not always positive.

If this were coming with a generator program, a higher level of complexity would be neat. If not, we have to keep simplicity in mind. Remember, most refs will use this for two purposes: (1) to prepare ahead of time (2) when players pull their favorite stunt of heading relentlessly out of the prepared area. While complexity may not be too much of a problem (but remember how you may have used the word "cumbersome" to describe tables in the past), too complex a set of tables is definitely a problem for the quick "dang it" type of generation needed when the players are off track.

The more unrelated tables you have in a row: not a problem.
The more tables that interrelate or require reference to other pages: problem.

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
The use of templates for archetypal forms of something isn't plagiary. As long as the non-generic names ("thin edge" is an example) and game mechanics aren't stolen, I think there is no danger of a legal problem.
We have two ideas on the table for adding flavor to the numbers. One idea is mine, to use a few tables that will add an odd or distinctive attribute to the port. The other, which will work in parallel, is Paul's idea to modify the numbers themselves in response to a referee-selected template for the port. This is a valid game mechanic regardless of what SJG has done (and I haven't read their book, so I'm confident that I'm not being influenced by their proprietary content).

....

Those that *merely* add flavor would be candidates for inclusion in my tables. Paul's point is that the ref can insert his own choices early in the process to affect the structure of the starport. My point - not that it's necessarily an either-or - is that each and every additional table adds complexity and effort to the process. Keep in mind how much all of us want a computer generator for T20 character generation; that's to lower the effort of complexity. Complexity is not always positive.

If this were coming with a generator program, a higher level of complexity would be neat. If not, we have to keep simplicity in mind. Remember, most refs will use this for two purposes: (1) to prepare ahead of time (2) when players pull their favorite stunt of heading relentlessly out of the prepared area. While complexity may not be too much of a problem (but remember how you may have used the word "cumbersome" to describe tables in the past), too complex a set of tables is definitely a problem for the quick "dang it" type of generation needed when the players are off track.

The more unrelated tables you have in a row: not a problem.
The more tables that interrelate or require reference to other pages: problem.

Thanks, Mythmere, for elaborating on the dilemna. Both approaches are valid, and I agree that we don't want to overcomplicate what should essentially be a quick reference tool for the GM.

What if the "Fleshing Out" in its entirety was clearly identified as OPTIONAL? You would then have a front end, Control Tower through to Customs, that creates the generic port and its UPFS. The Fleshing Out can include all of the detail: Mythmere's lists of 'spice', and my port modifying 'character tables'.

The first part gives you the essential basics. A GM will then have the option of taking or leaving the second part.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Mythmere]

It makes sense to include both, at least at this point. They are distinct approaches; using one without the other certainly forecloses some options. The overlap will most likely be assigned to one or the other of the sections.

 

[Liam Devlin]

My apologies on the plagiarism warning-I am not a lawyer- Paul, Mythmere. mea culpas& yes, RL has interrupted my train of thought too, so no harm, no foul paul.. (sorry to cut off yer train of thought).

I did not mean that (comment vis a vis SJG) in any sense as a slap/ dig etc, in a manner unbecoming a member of this forum, to either of you..
-------------------------------------------------
On the subject of "character of port", yes I lean towards placing it in the Options section. You are correct,<nods> we wish the first part to be the speedy guide tool to the time-parched GM..
"Fleshing it out" is headed for the detailed options chapter (whatever we end up calling it).

Again, sincerest apologies, my plate(time wise) is full..

 

[Liam Devlin]

good post and ideas there in that Thrash, thank you sir!

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

This may have been covered elsewhere and its clearly implied in -slightly- offtopic RL reminences of Mogadishu by Paul and Another contributor but:

under Character of port, or Architecture. wherever you want to put flavour text.

Suggest the for a new port that it's mostly made out of empty container modules?

Apparantly they have RL been used to make defence perimeters and Control towers.

A bit of creative work with a cutting torch and I'm sure they can serve all kinds of building needs.

or make it part of the sort of place that's a mix of Quonset huts and Local log houses.

Just a thought. Definitely give the feel of a new and fast growing port.


Or for an E or D class port that's of minimal maintence.

Customs office is a OLD and corroded container module converted to a trailer home/office for the lone Customs officer/port official/imperial governor.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Good idea garf! thanks!! a definite reminder...tho I think TJ was mentioning quonset huts earlier along this forum page, in another thread..Good descriptions from RL examples will make it better!

 

[trader jim]

is a 'personality" table of the port useable???
the personality of the port helps explain its "characture.