The Cost of Comfort

[WistfulD]

The Living in a Scout Ship thread got me thinking--Not everyone in the world is designed to live in what at worst would be a WWII era submariner's bed, and at best would be a modern cruise ship's bedroom.

Some people would like at least as much space as a modern adult living in a shared apartment with roommates--so shared galley and bathroom, but a full room to oneself with space for more than just the bed (maybe a recliner and video game set-up, maybe an exercise machine, maybe a spot for your bathtub gin and stil).

Traveller seems to have two modes: cramped industrial ship where every extra millimeter is devoted to fuel, cargo, paying passengers, or lifesaving equipment, or luxury yachts. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

Those posits for me the question: how much extra space/tonnage and extra cost would it take to add a semblance of modern comforts to a work vehicle? I'm thinking the luxury asteroid mining vessel that a belter dreams of when they pass out in their cramped little bunk. It is still a working man's ship, but some space and money has gone into making it a comfortable place to live and work.

Any ideas?

 

[mike wightman]

By TL9 every feature in a stateroom should be reconfigurable to what you want it to be at that time of day.

Tell the computer you want a lounge suite and the furniture configures itself to a living room set up. Tell it you are ready for bed and it morphs into a bed.

By TL15 every living space on the ship should be configurable.

 

[salochin999]

The Living in a Scout Ship thread got me thinking--Not everyone in the world is designed to live in what at worst would be a WWII era submariner's bed, and at best would be a modern cruise ship's bedroom.

Some people would like at least as much space as a modern adult living in a shared apartment with roommates--so shared galley and bathroom, but a full room to oneself with space for more than just the bed (maybe a recliner and video game set-up, maybe an exercise machine, maybe a spot for your bathtub gin and stil).

Traveller seems to have two modes: cramped industrial ship where every extra millimeter is devoted to fuel, cargo, paying passengers, or lifesaving equipment, or luxury yachts. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

Those posits for me the question: how much extra space/tonnage and extra cost would it take to add a semblance of modern comforts to a work vehicle? I'm thinking the luxury asteroid mining vessel that a belter dreams of when they pass out in their cramped little bunk. It is still a working man's ship, but some space and money has gone into making it a comfortable place to live and work.

Any ideas?

After the scout ship thread I'm going with configurable walls for the living space so 16 dton could be four state rooms or one big one - that sounds okay for a belter or navigation satellite maintenance dude or an actual couple.

 

[WistfulD]

By TL9 every feature in a stateroom should be reconfigurable to what you want it to be at that time of day.

Tell the computer you want a lounge suite and the furniture configures itself to a living room set up. Tell it you are ready for bed and it morphs into a bed.

By TL15 every living space on the ship should be configurable.

The technological scaling of the game suggest that that should be the case, but the overall feel of the game doesn't seem to support cupholders morphing out of the walls when you need somewhere to put your drink. I still think of Traveller ships as stark, austere, relatively industrial affairs even though the tech level implies they should have every comfort except volume.

Btw, why the 6 TL jump between configurable statesrooms and the whole living space of the ship?

 

[McPerth]

As I already said time ago in another thread, my take is that we don't have to compare Traveller staterooms with those of nowdays cruisers, but with those of the early XX centry ones.

Nowdays, most cruisers are pleasure ones, as if your intent is to go from point A to point B you sue to use other transports (mostly planes). So, comodity is paramount if you want to attract customers.

In early XX century, those same ships were the only way to cross oceans, so the main factor was not comodity, but availability. Of course there were luxury rooms, but there were also more functional ones, and even steerage.

This last one is my take for Traveller, just changing steerage for cold berth (as even steerage would consume precious life support, if ony in the way of air and waste recicling), and most passengers being content with conditions no one will accept for a pleasure cruise, as it's the only wat to travel, nothing like planes to compete with it.

Off course, more luxorious travel is posible, and suites for the wealthy will exist (as the reference on the Yacht about two staterooms being converted in the owner's suite), but most travel will be in standard staterooms (first class) or in shared ones/small staterooms (tourist class equivalent), as there are some references that say middle passage is.

 

[Timerover51]

You do have a wide range of accommodations on a modern cruise ship, with the crew accommodations being much more standardized. The bottom line is that if you convert two staterooms into a more luxurious suite, the cost goes up accordingly for the passenger that wants to use it.

I still have not figured out why some think that the standard stateroom in Traveller is not large enough for one person. It is comparable to the standard inside stateroom on a cruise ship, which can hold 4 people. That is TOO SMALL for one person???????

I spent two days going very thoroughly going over the US Coast Guard Cutter Bramble, presently in Port Huron, Michigan, which would be roughly comparable in volume to a 100 dTon Scout to a 200 dTon Free Trader. That had a crew of 50. The size of the bridge, including the radio room, might be 1 Traveller dTon in volume. The captain's cabin was located next to the bridge, and would be about the size of 1.5 standard state rooms. And before someone says that these were built in World War 2, they were designed prior to the war, based on a civilian Coast Guard buoy tender, and the last one was retired in 2006.

The following is a link to photos and detailed general arrangement drawings of the ship, and also a link to their design history.

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=Coast+Guard+Cutter+bramble&sp=1
http://www.uscg.mil/history/WEBCUTTERS/NPS_180_HAER_Report.pdf

I have also been on the bridge of the RCCL Liberty of the Seas, which is enormous, but not a lot is actual ship controls. Most of it is there so that the captain can stand on the bridge wing, which extends beyond the side of the ship, so that he can watch very closely bringing her next to a dock. If you want to get an idea of the accommodations, go to the RCCL home page and look over their ships.

In my Traveller Universe, the 20 dTon bridge requirement for ships, unless they are over 1000 dTons in Traveller (which makes them 5,000 gross register tons for an ocean-going ship, or about a third the size of a Liberty Ship), includes the computer area and the Captain/Owner suite, which is two staterooms, one being the Captain/Owner stateroom, and the other used as the ship's office (and weapons locker).

The Ship crew double up in standard staterooms, unless there are an uneven number of females, in which case one uses part of the sickbay. Note, I do provide for a sick bay, and mandatory medic onboard. Crews are also larger.

My stateroom life support is designed for 4 persons per stateroom, with a 100% overload built in. In theory, I could board 8 persons per stateroom and manage okay, but that would be more than a bit crowded, and would require hot-bunking. Additional passenger pods with needed life support can be carried in the cargo bay, as with a fusion plant, I am not going to run short of power.

If you want more comfort, than just build a larger ship and put it in. If you are carrying passengers, just charge them accordingly.

 

[aramis]

I still have not figured out why some think that the standard stateroom in Traveller is not large enough for one person. It is comparable to the standard inside stateroom on a cruise ship, which can hold 4 people. That is TOO SMALL for one person???????

You're making a grape-to-cluster comparison, tho.

The 4Td of Stateroom is NOT JUST the cabin. It's the cabin, the share of the entertainment space, the share of the kitchens and dining facilities, and the share of the waste processing and waste handling systems.

And while a 4Td unit is a livable bit of housing for busy people, most people cannot handle that small a space for themselves for long durations unless they are busy.

 

[Timerover51]

You're making a grape-to-cluster comparison, tho.

The 4Td of Stateroom is NOT JUST the cabin. It's the cabin, the share of the entertainment space, the share of the kitchens and dining facilities, and the share of the waste processing and waste handling systems.

And while a 4Td unit is a livable bit of housing for busy people, most people cannot handle that small a space for themselves for long durations unless they are busy.

Okay, put a volume on those spaces. Quit saying that some of the 4 dTons is other space. Spell it out. How much room for entertainment space? How much room for kitchen and dining space? How much?

And if the waste processing and waste handling system for a small number of people is greater than 1 Traveller dTon, I would love to see a reason for that.

Edit Note: And if the areas mentioned cost that much volume, then start putting them on the deck plans as those areas.

 

[aramis]

Okay, put a volume on those spaces. Quit saying that some of the 4 dTons is other space. Spell it out. How much room for entertainment space? How much room for kitchen and dining space? How much?

And if the waste processing and waste handling system for a small number of people is greater than 1 Traveller dTon, I would love to see a reason for that.

Edit Note: And if the areas mentioned cost that much volume, then start putting them on the deck plans as those areas.

The Standard stateroom on traveller ships is usually mapped out as 2 Td of room, and 2td of other. This is, in fact, the guidance in the CT rules.

Your turn: what's the rate for a cruise ship? You also need to account for deck space... assume 3m except for the pool; there, assume 3m above the top diving board. That's all "stateroom" space as well.

Only the drives and controls spaces are human accessible and not "stateroom" space. When you look at cruise ships, suddenly, the tonnage per person is much much more close to Traveller rates.

 

[Timerover51]

The Scout and the Subsidized Merchant in Supplement 7, Traders and Gunboats, both show staterooms of 3 dTons, a total of six 1.5 X 1.5 meter squares. The Scout has 4 staterooms, so that would leave 4 dTons for other areas. The Merchant has 13 staterooms, so that would allow for an additional 13 dTons of space.

The Scout shows a common area equaling 10 dTons. The Subsidized Merchant shows a Galley area equal to 5 dTons, and a Forward Passenger Lounge area equal to at least 15 dTons. Neither the Scout Common Area or the Merchant Galley and Passenger Lounge Area is specified in the design process. Both exceed the allowance of 1 dTon per stateroom. The Merchant deck plan shows a total of 127 dTons of cargo space, not 200. I am not sure where the 50 dTons of fuel is. Nor am I sure where the 40 dTons of fuel on the Scout is either.

On the Scout, the Bridge is very definitely NOT 20 dTons of space per the design rules, and the Engine Room is only 10 dTons, not the 15 dTons required for A drives and power plant. The Merchant Bridge is about 10 dTons, including the 1 dTon for the computer, while the Engine spaces on the Merchant total 50 dTons, rather than the 35 dTons for C drives in the design rules. The power plant occupies 22 dTons of volume, verses 10 dTons given in the design sequence, while the Jump and Maneuver drives occupy 28 dTons compared to 25 dTons in the design sequence, not too bad a match.

Then there is the deck plan of the Far Trader, Empress Marava. The volume of the Engine Spaces appears to exceed 100 dTons, while the cargo hold, not counting the cargo locks, has a volume of 88 dTons. According to the description in the text, the cargo hold is either 46 dTons or 61 dTons, while based on the design sequence, the required engine room space for drives and power plant is 25 dTons for B drives and power plant. A B drive and power plant gives a 200 ton ship Jump-2 and 2-G acceleration, matching the written description. The bridge looks like it is about 6 dTons. By the way, the Empress Marava is a 200 Traveller dTon ship. It does appear to have more than enough volume for the 50 dTons of fuel however. Maybe the Empress Marava is not a good example of deck plans.

Now, if you allow 3 dTons or six 1.5 X 1.5 deck plan squares, or 150 square feet for a stateroom, and state that the additional 1 dTon per stateroom is accommodated by galley, corridors, and lounge space, I have no problems with that. However, that should be spelled out somewhere in the design sequence that those allocations are being made, and deck plans should reflect that as well. All of the deck plans in Traders and Gunboats show 3 dTon staterooms, not 2 dTon staterooms. I believe that Traders and Gunboats is about as canonical as you can get.

 

[aramis]

The Scout and the Subsidized Merchant in Supplement 7, Traders and Gunboats, both show staterooms of 3 dTons, a total of six 1.5 X 1.5 meter squares. The Scout has 4 staterooms, so that would leave 4 dTons for other areas. The Merchant has 13 staterooms, so that would allow for an additional 13 dTons of space.

You're forgetting to account for room height. The scout only allows for 2m height in the staterooms - those are 2 Td, due to only being 2/3 height.

Likewise, the subbie isn't full height, either, but due to the curves, is harder to adjudicate.

 

[salochin999]

I still think of Traveller ships as stark, austere, relatively industrial affairs even though the tech level implies they should have every comfort except volume.

I'd agree with generally austere except for yachts / cruise liners feel but at the same time if the possibility exists I can imagine scout / belter types jazzing up their ship with their own cash.

Although if the type S is designed to be single-crewable but has space for four state rooms if necessary then the core functionality might be in place already and a detached scout might just have to pay for smart luxury wall pieces to replace the original functional ones.

The previous thread gave me the idea that couples could be quite common as well so i can see a double state room being quite common also.

 

[Matt123]

Some people would like at least as much space as a modern adult...

Traveller seems to have two modes: cramped industrial ship where every extra millimeter is devoted to fuel, cargo, paying passengers, or lifesaving equipment, or luxury yachts. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

My take on it, perhaps reinforced by the two extremes you pick, is that if you are the ship owner, you get the freedom to choose. If you own the ship, feel free to knock out a wall and create a double stateroom --- at the cost of losing paying passenger space at 10KCr per jump or 20KCr a month. A prudent owner might choose to do this to accommodate his/her family or perhaps because the ship is paid for and there is no longer a need to service a mortgage.

But to provide that for an employee Engineer earning 2KCr a jump or 4KCr a month, seems counter-intuitive. Even if you did, the Engineer would probably prefer a 12KCr salary per jump over the extra living space.

To work in the space industry, you have to accept certain conditions. If those conditions are not palatable, you stay planetside, buy the McMansion with the sweeping driveway and lap pool, and earn enough that you can travel in double stateroom comfort when-ever you want without having to buy and operate the ship. (Unless you can afford both the McMansion and the the Yacht of course...)

The other observation I will make is that living space is relative. I found living in the UK, the "normal" was significantly more cramped than my normal as a Kiwi. This is reflected for example in language. To a Kiwi, a "house" is a home on a section of land, surrounded by grass and fences, with a garage for the car and a backyard for the kids. In the UK a "house" is a row house, narrow, two strories (or more) and adjoined to neighbours on both sides. No front yard, no garage and only wheelie bin access to the back yard. A "semi-detached house" is adjoined on one side only, grass on three sides. A "fully-detached house" has grass on four sides and a garage, etc.

Would this make Brits better spacefarers than Kiwis? IMO this one factor alone is insufficient. It is more personal, what is your driver, why to do want to travel and are you prepared to accept what that means. A similar travel dynamic is Camping verses Glamping (Glamorous Camping, involving 4 and 5 star hotel level service, rather than smokey campfires, sleeping on the ground and digging a hole to poop). Do you want to be a spacefarer or do you want to experience the good bits for a bit in the comfort you deserve (and can pay for).

 

[Vargas]

I believe that Traders and Gunboats is about as canonical as you can get.

I think that statement is true but the deckplans are way wrong (if I remember previous discussions accurately).

 

[Matt123]

Although if the type S is designed to be single-crewable but has space for four state rooms if necessary then the core functionality might be in place already and a detached scout might just have to pay for smart luxury wall pieces to replace the original functional ones.

And there are no commercial drivers (like a mortgage) attached to a Scout. In addition if you do find yourself wanting to transport three people, pulling out a TL12 version of a collapsible guest bed to share your double stateroom is not a problem.

Of course if that individual needs the entire double stateroom, you can always camp in the engineering spaces or maybe in the back of the air-raft?

 

[salochin999]

And there are no commercial drivers (like a mortgage) attached to a Scout. In addition if you do find yourself wanting to transport three people, pulling out a TL12 version of a collapsible guest bed to share your double stateroom is not a problem.

Of course if that individual needs the entire double stateroom, you can always camp in the engineering spaces or maybe in the back of the air-raft?

Yes exactly. Kinda fun + hitch hikers as plot hooks.

 

[salochin999]

A prudent owner might choose to do this to accommodate his/her family or perhaps because the ship is paid for and there is no longer a need to service a mortgage

That's another interesting thought.

A five term merchant who's paid off the forty year mortgage on his ship leading to 80 year old grandpa merchant captain, grandma, kids and grandkids all piled into the remodeled "family" section of their Type M.

 

[Timerover51]

You're forgetting to account for room height. The scout only allows for 2m height in the staterooms - those are 2 Td, due to only being 2/3 height.

Likewise, the subbie isn't full height, either, but due to the curves, is harder to adjudicate.

And where is this spelled out in any of the ship construction sequence? Where is it stated that on a Scout, deckhead height is only 2 meters, with no additional space between the two decks for ventilation ducts. That gives a clearance of only 6 feet 8 inches between decks. Also reconcile that statement with the cross-sections of decks shown on pages 6 and 7 of Supplement 7.

Also, the following is stated in Traveller Starter Edition, page 32, second column.

Each stateroom is sufficient for one person, displaces 4 tons, and costs Cr500,000.

I do not see any qualifiers on that statement. A stateroom displaces 4 tons sounds like a stateroom has a volume of 4 dTons or 56 cubic meters.

Supplement 7, on page 5, does indicate that some of the 4 tons allotted to staterooms is used for "communal facilities such as galley, mess, and recreation lounges." I do not see where that means that a stateroom is actually only 2 dTons in volume. If a player does not have the Supplement, how is the player going to have any knowledge of that?

I did notice that you did not touch on the bridge issue of the Scout, or of the two merchant ships.

I will build the ships in My Traveller Universe, using the ship design sequence as given, with all necessary modifications that I deem necessary. All other individuals may do whatever they wish.

 

[steventirey1985]

Book 5 High Guard does state:

Staterooms require four tons at a cost of Cr500,000 per stateroom. Staterooms actually average about two tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas.

That being said, I've hardly ever seen a 2 ton stateroom in any deckplan. Almost all are 3 tons.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Not to get too off topic, but here's the wet terrestrial "Earth" version of what your high passage passengers pay for and expect;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiKdXN8OK3Q

My office, the downstairs bedroom, is roughly 10' x 13 ', not including the closet. A single bed fits nicely, and you can accomodate a desk and chest of drawers, and there's ample closet space (games, books, DVDs). To me that's maybe 10% to 15% larger than a scout ship state room.

A high passage stateroom to me, is like a scaled down hotel suite. Real luxury on board a vessel for "very" high paying passengers might be something like a penthouse.

Just my thoughts. Me, I'm good with a standard stateroom, as long as I can keep my kit in it.