Well, it's been ages since I looked at AHL or MT, but I seem to recall that Pen goes down with range, or am I not remembering that correctly?
The EMG
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Well, it's been ages since I looked at AHL or MT, but I seem to recall that Pen goes down with range, or am I not remembering that correctly?
Preamble; I'm not "into guns" other than in games in movies, so, based off of the previous link of the RR, I came across this older gentleman;
https://youtu.be/GXEK7rcqO-Y
And that's kind of what I was picturing. Though there's obviously the power supply issue.
https://youtu.be/GXEK7rcqO-Y
And that's kind of what I was picturing. Though there's obviously the power supply issue.
Low is fine, I would describe it as sounding like bees.
The OP's big caliber HMG thumper works out at for a crew served low velocity 4 target 50kg mass driver to be about what I ballparked, Pen-12. Striker doesn't let it get any smaller. Eliminate the rounds per second and I could see arguing it down to 10 kg.
No that's correct, typical kinetic effects of friction/drag/gravity drop, or diffraction/attenuation for energy weapons. Also, more difficulty to hit as range increases, Effective/Long/Extreme.
The two outstanding exceptions are HEAP/HEAT/RAM GLs where the penetration is the same at all ranges due to the warhead plasma jet forming at the same relative point to target, and the Accelerator Rifle, which gets an increased penetration at long range due to finally reaching maximum velocity.
What's my opinion of that? Well I like it quite fine compared to the CT hit/nohit paradigm or MgT's armor points/slapped on penetrator mechanic. I didn't' like some of the damage aspects, particularly the you are dead part of EW/HE and the stabbity stab stab death of 1000 minor wounds with melee weapons. On the negative side, there is some real nuanced stats to CTs' to-hit ranges, particularly rifles/pistols/shotguns, that gets lost in the effective range simplification.
I have monkeyed with the damage part pretty hard, detailed in the CT forum Striker thread.
I want to be able to deal with torso armor/no armor on arms/legs, have 'small' weapons like daggers or pistols kill but otherwise render similar damage on the classic 1D-5D model, and have situations where the armor sometimes stops, sometimes lets bruises/burns happen, sometimes fails entirely. Also, coupled with the QND Medical Drama, hit location/charstat renders detail as to what is happening medically with the character.
But I did all this on the damage resolution side, leaving the weapon stats alone. Pretty happy with them as a game mechanic.
I'm thinking of monkeying with the to-hit numbers due to the performance numbers of relatively unskilled police vs. skilled we were discussing a few months ago, but I have an idiosyncratic approach to skills/charstat anyway.
Last edited:
CT's major attraction was starship construction and ease of play personal combat (and I suppose basic starship combat as well). But we put the game down more than once because of the 8+ thing.
Not that a basic 2d6 throw of the dice on 8 or better was bad, but the DMs on the weapons' matrix and terrain modifiers meant that, in theory, some TL7 (1970s) kid with his daisy 22, again in theory, could damage a TL15 BD marine.
How do you mitigate that? In fact there were several times when one of our guys, who had combat armor (and lugged around an LMG) got hit by low tech slug throwers and suffered damage. He became indignant and angry, and I'd have to explain to him that the DM was factored into the armor, and that that was what was protecting him. But, being a REF, I made up a damage rule on the fly, and that seemed to satisfy him.
So, when MT rolled around with it's hit verse pen/damage mechanic, that was much welcome. But we still liked the old basic combat chart, and I still had issues with the Gauss weapons, which when I came up with the idea that this thread is dedicated to.
Sorry if this is more anecdotal than informative, but I felt it necessary to describe some of the history of the thinking that went into this concept.
One of my gripes with Traveller, in all its forms, is that the weapons, for all the territory that the game had to cover in terms of gear, seemed pretty limited. If you were playing straight CT as we did, without Mercenary, AHL or Snapshot (we never used Striker, so sans-Striker as well), then you essentially had a choice of an autorifle, SMG or laser weapon as your weapon of choice for serious combat. And we were baffled as to why really low tech things like clubs, spears or swords were even included.
But, to get back on topic, it struck me that for the sake of variety (and perhaps to expand or nerf or just offer an alternative) that weapons based on electromagnetic science would probably come in more flavors. And that if might be a high tech man portable alternative to something like a 50cal Browning.
Anyway, just my take. I have other thoughts on the game, its evolution, and so forth in regards to gauss weapons, but I'm not sure they're pertinent here and now for this thread.
I'll have to crack open my MT CD and re-read the hit verse pen rules again.
Not that a basic 2d6 throw of the dice on 8 or better was bad, but the DMs on the weapons' matrix and terrain modifiers meant that, in theory, some TL7 (1970s) kid with his daisy 22, again in theory, could damage a TL15 BD marine.
How do you mitigate that? In fact there were several times when one of our guys, who had combat armor (and lugged around an LMG) got hit by low tech slug throwers and suffered damage. He became indignant and angry, and I'd have to explain to him that the DM was factored into the armor, and that that was what was protecting him. But, being a REF, I made up a damage rule on the fly, and that seemed to satisfy him.
So, when MT rolled around with it's hit verse pen/damage mechanic, that was much welcome. But we still liked the old basic combat chart, and I still had issues with the Gauss weapons, which when I came up with the idea that this thread is dedicated to.
Sorry if this is more anecdotal than informative, but I felt it necessary to describe some of the history of the thinking that went into this concept.
One of my gripes with Traveller, in all its forms, is that the weapons, for all the territory that the game had to cover in terms of gear, seemed pretty limited. If you were playing straight CT as we did, without Mercenary, AHL or Snapshot (we never used Striker, so sans-Striker as well), then you essentially had a choice of an autorifle, SMG or laser weapon as your weapon of choice for serious combat. And we were baffled as to why really low tech things like clubs, spears or swords were even included.
But, to get back on topic, it struck me that for the sake of variety (and perhaps to expand or nerf or just offer an alternative) that weapons based on electromagnetic science would probably come in more flavors. And that if might be a high tech man portable alternative to something like a 50cal Browning.
Anyway, just my take. I have other thoughts on the game, its evolution, and so forth in regards to gauss weapons, but I'm not sure they're pertinent here and now for this thread.
I'll have to crack open my MT CD and re-read the hit verse pen rules again.
Aramis has often commented that the MT rules are very close to my peculiar wants, so they may suffice as a base for tweaking.
One of the things I do in that CT/Striker thread is to try and suss out an underlying formula for the weapons and scale them back to their infantry versions, just so I can design special purpose weapons.
Probably easier to just pick up T5's gun maker or FF&S mechanic and adapt, but I like the highly variable hit/range mechanic in Striker and its' tied to real world numbers so I can say things like 'the laser rifle will burn through 22.5mm of steel'.
In looking at the MD 20mm support gun I was designing, it struck me that the CPR/MD mechanic is basically saying the CPR weapons are cheaper and do as much damage as the MDs, but the MDs can throw a LOT more rounds out per second.
Also, you want to reduce the size of the ammo to a minimum as the power consumption becomes a greater cost as larger rounds fired in 100s to 1000s per second add up.
As a result of this thread I am filling in the missing parts of the CPR table that get us down to man-portable weapons, meaning I should be able to render 'conventional' weapons as well as gauss designs. ALWAYS intended to do that, just had not done so before now.
Brings up the whole topic of recoil again. Is recoil compensation a bigger limiting factor to weapon design for these more powerful rifles then classic issues like round propulsion/pressure limits?
One of the things I do in that CT/Striker thread is to try and suss out an underlying formula for the weapons and scale them back to their infantry versions, just so I can design special purpose weapons.
Probably easier to just pick up T5's gun maker or FF&S mechanic and adapt, but I like the highly variable hit/range mechanic in Striker and its' tied to real world numbers so I can say things like 'the laser rifle will burn through 22.5mm of steel'.
In looking at the MD 20mm support gun I was designing, it struck me that the CPR/MD mechanic is basically saying the CPR weapons are cheaper and do as much damage as the MDs, but the MDs can throw a LOT more rounds out per second.
Also, you want to reduce the size of the ammo to a minimum as the power consumption becomes a greater cost as larger rounds fired in 100s to 1000s per second add up.
As a result of this thread I am filling in the missing parts of the CPR table that get us down to man-portable weapons, meaning I should be able to render 'conventional' weapons as well as gauss designs. ALWAYS intended to do that, just had not done so before now.
Brings up the whole topic of recoil again. Is recoil compensation a bigger limiting factor to weapon design for these more powerful rifles then classic issues like round propulsion/pressure limits?
I think the implication has always been that an MD could throw more and at greater velocities, largely because you're pushing physics to the limit by applying acceleration along the length of the barrel; i.e. you're dumping more energy into the system over a length of time.
That verse "the big bang" you get from a CPR where you have to harness as much of the energy upon its release, all the while some of it bleeds into the barrel, the stock, the mechanics (spring, magazine feed and so forth), and the round is losing speed even before it exits the barrel.
When I was thinking about the EMG concept as a Gauss Gun derivative, I envisioned it shooting thumb sized bricks of metal; some alloy. And that different shapes could be made to suit different purposes like conventional rounds of CPRs.
How that translates to the weapons' matrix, I don't know. I read through T5s thing maker ... and a lot of the basic concepts of what the rules are trying to achieve are laudible, but I'll be darned if I could get it to work (I probably wasn't in the right frame of mind at the time).
Are you proposing a man-portable 20mm gun that can go full auto?
That verse "the big bang" you get from a CPR where you have to harness as much of the energy upon its release, all the while some of it bleeds into the barrel, the stock, the mechanics (spring, magazine feed and so forth), and the round is losing speed even before it exits the barrel.
When I was thinking about the EMG concept as a Gauss Gun derivative, I envisioned it shooting thumb sized bricks of metal; some alloy. And that different shapes could be made to suit different purposes like conventional rounds of CPRs.
How that translates to the weapons' matrix, I don't know. I read through T5s thing maker ... and a lot of the basic concepts of what the rules are trying to achieve are laudible, but I'll be darned if I could get it to work (I probably wasn't in the right frame of mind at the time).
Are you proposing a man-portable 20mm gun that can go full auto?
Just as something to think about as a "transitional" system, I believe that in both TNE & T4, the ACR (TL10 standard) and related heavier CPR weapon systems were always considered to use caseless ETC (Wikipedia: Electrothermal Chemical) rounds for propellant, which addresses some of your comments above for conventional CPR weapons.
See also:
http://www.aerodefensetech.com/component/content/article/adt/features/feature-articles/5093.
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Electrothermal-chemical_technology
Well using the Striker tables best you can do within the rules is a 50kg MD carried into the fight and deployed or mounted/fired by a BD suit. Then you have a design tradeoff of rounds carried vs. rapid fire vs. power required for higher ROF.
This is a low velocity weapon. Medium velocity means 75kg and High is 100kg, firmly taking it out of the man-portable category.
A lot depends on whether you see this as a light vehicle killer, armored infantry HMG, and/or point defense against missiles/artillery.
Hmm, interesting side note, stabilization gear costs a minimum of 50-100kg alone, so no such man portable artillery will be stabilized for fire while moving.
With a direct fire control system fitted for the low velocity gun, that works out to 1.5km effective range, 20kg weight. An emergency PD capability should probably be two systems for 15kg, 1 km effective range.
Ammo works out to 5 rounds per kg. One 300 round burst is likely to use up a whole fire teams' supply.
Bottom line, it's a doable support gun for BD suits. Otherwise should be beefed up for vehicle/towed form factors for higher pen/ROF, and PD work left to cheaper autocannons or non-ammo lasers.
Well, that's interesting. I have to be honest, it does seem to lean towards anime physics. We discussed the "Predator" man portable minigun a few years back, and I think the US Army commented that the thing just had too much kick to be man portable. In recent months I thought about that concept, and wondered if perhaps the user/firer might benefit from some kind of brace fitted to the arm and shoulder that could spread the recoil. I think the same would have to apply to even a BD unit hulking such a canon.
It strikes me that the ROF would not be in the Vulcan canon range, but more along the lines of an M60. And yeah, having held a 20mm shell (my dad took a few souveniers after his honorable discharge), all I can say is those things are not light. If it's an MD, then you're going to have to heft a power pack for energy. If it's a CPR, then you need that chemical energy that comes with each round.
Getting back to the EMG, I was just thinking that the thing might as big as a Barret, but fire like an M60. It would be a "poor world's" answer to the TL15 BD marine with a Gauss Gun. That is because the weapon would be bulkier, very much not silent, and probably heavier, that it would still give whoever's forces pause before committing to an assault.
It might fire off 20 round mags or something, or perhaps be belt fed from a pack. I was thinking of something that could be an equalizer for indy worlds that didn't want to get soaked up by either the Imperium or one of its neighbors.
That, and it would come in a variety of flavors ... as perhaps should some of the basic CPR weapons for the basic game.
A BD marine hulking CIWS, huh? Interesting.
*p.s. I got Survivor's "Eye of the Tiger" playing as I type this post .... I wonder if it mean's something
)
It strikes me that the ROF would not be in the Vulcan canon range, but more along the lines of an M60. And yeah, having held a 20mm shell (my dad took a few souveniers after his honorable discharge), all I can say is those things are not light. If it's an MD, then you're going to have to heft a power pack for energy. If it's a CPR, then you need that chemical energy that comes with each round.
Getting back to the EMG, I was just thinking that the thing might as big as a Barret, but fire like an M60. It would be a "poor world's" answer to the TL15 BD marine with a Gauss Gun. That is because the weapon would be bulkier, very much not silent, and probably heavier, that it would still give whoever's forces pause before committing to an assault.
It might fire off 20 round mags or something, or perhaps be belt fed from a pack. I was thinking of something that could be an equalizer for indy worlds that didn't want to get soaked up by either the Imperium or one of its neighbors.
That, and it would come in a variety of flavors ... as perhaps should some of the basic CPR weapons for the basic game.
A BD marine hulking CIWS, huh? Interesting.
*p.s. I got Survivor's "Eye of the Tiger" playing as I type this post .... I wonder if it mean's something
)Just thought I'd link to Ken Pick's work on this thread, as it maybe useful for further inspiration, particularly the LAG-10 and the Gauss LAG.
https://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/advlasers.html
https://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/advslug.html
https://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/advlasers.html
https://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/advslug.html
Lots of ideas in both those threads. I guess what it comes down to is what some guy I knew called "granularity". I think he meant how much refinement can add to a game, verse how much you can eek out of a game.
Just looking at the concepts on both those links, to me at least, it speaks to the limitations of the CT system, of which there are many. An SMG, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't fire four rounds per pull of the trigger, but just keeps firing the longer you have the trigger pulled. It's a full auto weapon, and I'm sure someone will post that there are variations on the theme.
Getting back to an electromagnetic gun; I just don't have any experience with Striker as to how to assign any kind of "vehicle" penetration for the thing. In terms of basic CT / MgT combat, I'm thinking it's a TL9 like weapon that can punch through TL12 armor, and perhaps suffers -DMs at TL13+, but can still cause damage. And the higher TL you go, the less and less that negative DM becomes.
Further, that even though there are Gauss weapons proper available, the EMG has anti-vehicle / anti-armor applications. Like firing your LMG at an enemy helicopter, the EMG might have a similar roll allowing a trooper to fire at a G-Carrier / Grav APC, or even a pinnace/shuttle/fighter/Vagr war platform, what have you.
Again, just concepts here.
Just looking at the concepts on both those links, to me at least, it speaks to the limitations of the CT system, of which there are many. An SMG, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't fire four rounds per pull of the trigger, but just keeps firing the longer you have the trigger pulled. It's a full auto weapon, and I'm sure someone will post that there are variations on the theme.
Getting back to an electromagnetic gun; I just don't have any experience with Striker as to how to assign any kind of "vehicle" penetration for the thing. In terms of basic CT / MgT combat, I'm thinking it's a TL9 like weapon that can punch through TL12 armor, and perhaps suffers -DMs at TL13+, but can still cause damage. And the higher TL you go, the less and less that negative DM becomes.
Further, that even though there are Gauss weapons proper available, the EMG has anti-vehicle / anti-armor applications. Like firing your LMG at an enemy helicopter, the EMG might have a similar roll allowing a trooper to fire at a G-Carrier / Grav APC, or even a pinnace/shuttle/fighter/Vagr war platform, what have you.
Again, just concepts here.
The standard for burst settings, and many modern SMG's have them, are 3 rounds, just like the modern assault rifles.
The three to 5 round full auto burst is a technique trained into most soldiers issued full-auto-only weapons. It is quite possible for a competent M60 gunner to fire the exact number of rounds he wants. 3 round burst have been shown statistically to be the most effective fire mode. Most military weapons have selectors for safe, semi, 3-round, and full; most but not all.
Some higher rate weapons do have 4 round instead of 3.
in 1977, the statistical analysis had yet to be completed by the US Army (It was being done) but TraDoc had already settled on 3 round.
A TL9 man-portable weapon that punches through TL12 armor is called an AT missile or RAM GL.
Course, what does TL12 armor mean exactly?
Those high-end plasma and fusion guns are penetrating heavy starship armor, protection on that level can work for a little while with slanted armor facing in the 30s.
That means even lighter tank destroyer grav vehicles are going to be resisting the plasma jets of RAM GL/HEAP tac missiles and heavy bruising assault tanks are going to have heavy armor able to take starship weapon hits.
Under those circumstances a man-portable Gauss ATR is going to be as useless as their TL6 predecessors quickly were.
Course, what does TL12 armor mean exactly?
Those high-end plasma and fusion guns are penetrating heavy starship armor, protection on that level can work for a little while with slanted armor facing in the 30s.
That means even lighter tank destroyer grav vehicles are going to be resisting the plasma jets of RAM GL/HEAP tac missiles and heavy bruising assault tanks are going to have heavy armor able to take starship weapon hits.
Under those circumstances a man-portable Gauss ATR is going to be as useless as their TL6 predecessors quickly were.
BTW in doing a deep dive on all this, I am finding that the RAM GL is outperforming what a 40mm HEAP round is supposed to using the CPR/HEAP round design process.
Looks to me like another one of those fudges to get a specific game effect in for either the gun rounds or the RAM GLs, and the other side of the equation was never trued up in QA.
Looks to me like another one of those fudges to get a specific game effect in for either the gun rounds or the RAM GLs, and the other side of the equation was never trued up in QA.
That and the Book 10 Armory and Ordnance link should suffice for most people's design purposes for CT-like damage stats.
I think I disagree. A RAM GL has limited ammo. I don't have my Merc4 book in front of me, but it's not a rifle weapon, and shoots what ... a magazine of four or five? Someone correct me on that, because I can't recall. And it requires that that ammunition be actual rockets. The RAM GL is a "higher tech" version of an RPG, and uses smaller munitions, or so I recall.
And EMG might be available at lower techs as well, and serve as a rhetorical PR deterrent to an invading Imperial or high tech force.
I guess I'm a little confused on your stance here. How do you see this weapon being applied?
Well, we already have an upper end case for recoil handling for the BDs in the cheap non-grav plasma/fusion man-portable guns.
Remember, the boilerplate description has the PGMP/FGMP attaching to the suit via a socket, so that implies a bracing function when the weapon fires. Given the BD's lift strength of 100kg in Striker, that suggests a frame strength as well.
So an autocannon with BD socket attachments is going to be trivial.
The RP-A is going to have quite a bit more kick though, that one might require some gravitic assist when mated to a suit.
Course the poor CA trooper that has the cheaper kit is going to not be able to lug any of this around.
For him, I would think either properly vehicle mounted weapons or maybe the TL9 equivalent of towed guns, a gun with a grav-chassis that is towed by whatever air/raft and when placed the power plant going to grav modules is redirected to the gun itself.
Or, we put in the mini-grav units for the EMG, but we are back to power issues and limits of gauss vs. HEAP/plasma.
Hmm, just for fun, a conventional tac missile that penetrates unarmored starship hull.
TL9, goal is man-portable, homing and target-designated (laser painting) for cheap light fire and forget with no guidance on the launch package, HEAP warhead, 5kg so the average trooper can pack one and some can carry two.
Counting up from 40 for TL9, we get 85mm as the missile 'bore'.
That gives us a 900 gram warhead, and 1 kg for homing or target designated guidance.
Hrrm, missile fuel ends up being a multiple of guidance/warhead weight, so we'll forego having a standard missile with both, just have one or the other.
1.9 kg x 1km range, that gets us a 3.8 kg package. Mount it in a disposable launcher, 5.7 kg.
Cost is 364 Cr for the homing version and 884 Cr for the laser designator version.
At higher TLs you can get smaller bores that weigh less to do the same damage, so cheaper as the same warhead will cost less propellant and overhead, or a bigger warhead that can penetrate HG armor, or greater range in the same form factor.
Yep. Cheap to do damage to starships. Best keep the guerillas at least 6km away from the starport.
I'm just saying based on the MD design sequence for the lowest velocity/smallest round available, you aren't getting the EMG for the penetration you desire, and that even if we ramp up the velocity it's going to be too darn heavy and power hungry.
The thing is, Striker doesn't give one the means to design any of the slug throwers IN the game using the mechanics of their larger artillery brethren.
You can't design the VRF GG using the system, smallest MD round is 20mm, VRF and GRs use 4mm.
Although I can speculate and fill in 'missing rounds' for the man portable stuff that seems to yield ballpark the penetration of the presented weapon.
So I can take a shot at it, but beyond this point it's me guessing and not what the game will do.
Well, I think this is where handwaveium comes in, and you just say "it does it" and put down some stats; available at TL-X, DMs for these situations, weighs so much, ROF, magazine options, et al.
If the Gauss Gun and Laser weapons are any indication of what can be achieved in the CT setting, then I see an EMG / MD as being a good "poor mans" Gauss Gun with some special effects.
I'm not really sure how to comment on your man portable 20mm CPR. Was there something else you wanted to point out?
Tac missiles; interesting. I am curious why we don't have grav-versions of these things in the game.
Mini-gun; sure, it would be easy to hack a grav module to one of these things, and you got your instant MP version of it, and it might be just the kind of thing that a low end world might slap together given low budgets, but a need for some tech injected into their armaments.
Similar threads
