The Hop and Skip Traveller Universe

[rancke]

I understand that the first of the new hop and/or skip drives comes along before TL16, at least as prototypes (I'm not quite sure about the progesssion). So I'm wondering, what happens in an alternate Third Imperium universe where these drives are invented per shedule? When is the Change Point and what are the changes? What is different about the Classic Era in the H&S TU?


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

I understand that the first of the new hop and/or skip drives comes along before TL16, at least as prototypes (I'm not quite sure about the progesssion). So I'm wondering, what happens in an alternate Third Imperium universe where these drives are invented per shedule? When is the Change Point and what are the changes? What is different about the Classic Era in the H&S TU?


Hans

If the drive is of a comparable size, and the fuel requirements are only 10% of what has gone before, then a series of prototype drives would be of incredible value to couriers or a Depot fleet intended to provide a strategic reserve.

Quite besides being able to halve or more the time from Capital to any of the outer domains, how big is the hop drive? The fuel requirements (a tenth of that needed for Jump) are on p339, but where does it describe how many dtons the drive takes up?

 

[rancke]

If the drive is of a comparable size, and the fuel requirements are only 10% of what has gone before, then a series of prototype drives would be of incredible value to couriers or a Depot fleet intended to provide a strategic reserve.

Yes, but what would be the historical effects of having these drives available?


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

The designation of "prototype" would argue that they are not even that common, nor that easy to build. That is assuming anyone has come up with one at all. Just because the tech progression in T5 has those early steps leading up to general use doesn't mean that every single advance is available on a strict timetable.

Yes, but what would be the historical effects of having these drives available?

If they can't get one to work right more than 10% of the time and they keep losing them even then, not much. Hop-1 is the distance equivalent of Jump-10, though in less time and for less fuel (at least once mature, at TL17), but if TL15 computers need a week for the calculations, diagnostics (this IS a prototype), and post-Hop smoke checks, it isn't going to change History.

 

[mike wightman]

The idea of a prototype 2 TLs below standard introduction is one of the sillier ideas in T5.

TL4 prototype fission reactors, jump drive prototypes at TL7 etc...

I would apply the prototype designation to the first breakthrough items constructed, but still require the TL of the item to be observed, i.e, you have to be TL8 to build a fusion power plant. The early ones are classed as prototypes and so have the drawbacks with regards to size, efficiency and cost, but after a few years the standard model for the TL should become available.

 

[robject]

First, a subtle point is that the Hop Drive-1 is a TL17 technology. An "Experimental" Hop Drive-1 is still TL17 technology, attempted by scientists working with TL14 equipment. So by definition this is an attempt to build something beyond the current tech level.

Experimental is handmade by inventors excited about the potential of a new technology, usually one-of-a-kind, and often dangerous and unreliable.

How big is the hop drive? The fuel requirements (a tenth of that needed for Jump) are on p339, but where does it describe how many dtons the drive takes up?

I believe [this is not in the book] they follow the same volume progression as jump drives. So a Standard TL18 Hop Drive B is 15 tons, and MCr 15.


@Experimental Hop Drives. An Experimental hop drive becomes usable at TL15. The Experimental Hop-2 drive has a useful drive potential rating of 1 [ref p322]. Moreover, it has a DM-3 to all operational tasks. It varies in quality, and has minuses on reliability, efficiency, and safety, and tends to be burdensome to ship systems [ref p.500].

The Experimental TL18 Hop Drive B displaces 15 tons, costs MCr 150, and requires 2% hull volume for fuel per 10 parsec hop.

what would be the historical effects of having these drives available?

At TL14, experimental hop drives are nonfunctional but a productive research path.

At TL15, an experimental hop drive actually starts working. There is probably one of them in existence, it is "hand-made", and is probably considered a crackpot's wild claim. This is the leading edge of transformational technology.

 

[mike wightman]

Anyway if you go by T5 rules as written, the hop drive is TL17, so a one of a kind experimental drive could have been built at TL14.

At TL 15 prototype drives could be built as test beds for further research.

At TL 16 you get the early production versions.

TL17 it is a stable technology and you can put a hop 1 drive in all your ships

 

[robject]

Prototype is the first step before early mass production. There are perhaps a dozen examples of any one prototype.

Here's how it may impact canon: any TL16 civilization might be able to actually use a small number of hop-enabled ships.



At TL16, the Darrians were capable of building a few Prototype TL18 Hop Drive-2s. As with the Experimental versions, these are only capable of Hop-1; however, with several examples, it is remotely possible that a few were installed on military or courier ships.

This doesn't really do much to canon. It could give pre-maghiz Darrians a very fast communications network. Or a couple of very mobile warships. There is next to no chance that these drives survived; however even if the relic fleet has a couple of these, it doesn't actually change canon.

 

[robject]

Anyway if you go by T5 rules as written, the hop drive is TL17, so a one of a kind experimental drive could have been built at TL14.

At TL 15 prototype drives could be built as test beds for further research.

At TL 16 you get the early production versions.

All three of these are actually incapable of performing a hop-1, however. For actual performance your early versions need to be hop-2 or better, which bumps up the TL by 1.

So, a working experiment doesn't show up until TL15. A dozen working prototypes exist during TL16. Standard Hop-1 drives do show up at TL17.

 

[aramis]

The "change point" for T5 must be, due to changes in the way Jump Drives and Jump Space work, –13.798E9 or so... or, if JSpace is an artifact of Yaskodray, rather than the universe, about –300E3, both dates on the Imperial calendar.

 

[robject]

Early is the first mass-produced design, before the technology has been completely refined.

At TL16 we see the first mass-produced Early Hop-1 drives. Even though they cannot do a true Hop-1, it is possible, but not certain, that they can do a micro-hop -- i.e. 9 parsecs.

If early hop drives can do a micro-hop, then what we see between TL15 and TL17 is the transformation from a Jump Culture to a Hop Culture. The clear indicator here is the communication networks, which will rapidly add in 9 parsec legs with specialized Xboat-style ships -- only now they have considerably more open space than actual Xboats. This probably means the creation of new patterns of trade, as the magic nine parsecs "shortens" the distance between worlds. Worlds separated by a few 9 hex hops will be connected using traders with more payload space and a shorter delivery time than jump-capable ships. Jump becomes relegated to low-rated drives, except in niche cases.

Two "Early" Micro-Hops are faster (2 days) and take less fuel (4%) than a single Jump-1 (7 days, 10% fuel).

Assuming that interstellar government is constrained by the speed of travel, then it follows that empires may now grow substantially. Government meddling achieves an order of magnitude greater reach.

An exploration explosion happens. The Scout Service gets a shot in the arm as Scouts get refitted for Hop. Small "hop traders" using surplus scouts and free traders may also spring into existence, serving profitable networks of hop-1-joined routes.

On the other hand, if early hop drives cannot do micro-hops, then this revolution is postponed by one TL.

Regardless, once you hit TL17, Hop-1 becomes Standard, which means factories are churning it out. "Early Hop-2" becomes a second-class research citizen with the introduction of Standard Hop-1, and the sexiest research labs shift to working on Hop-3.

 

[mike wightman]

By the way, hop drives are TL17 on the tables on page 338 and later in the technology chapter, but the text says it is TL18.

 

[whulorigan]

Hop-1 is the distance equivalent of Jump-10, though in less time and for less fuel (at least once mature, at TL17) . . .

Hop-1 is a Jump-10 performed in 1-day travel time. So if Hop-1 is repeated in succession for 7 days, it is the effective equivalent of Jump-70.

 

[whulorigan]

CAVEAT. I must assume that a Hop-0 cannot perform any sort of hop OR JUMP. I will add that clarifying text to the errata pile.

Extrapolating from the text, a "Hop-0" is effectively any Hop greater that 9pc, but less than or equal to 10pc (which is Hop-1). (It is mentioned explicitly in terms of what a Hop-1 drive can perform, but I do not have the text in front of me at the moment).

 

[mike wightman]

Where in the T5 book are these hop-0 drives mentioned?

I can find hop 1 being TL17 in two tables, and TL18 in the descriptive text (which is correct i wonder?) but no mention of hop 0.

 

[GypsyComet]

Hop-1 is a Jump-10 performed in 1-day travel time. So if Hop-1 is repeated in succession for 7 days, it is the effective equivalent of Jump-70.

Once mature, yes. That was the point of my post with all of its caveats. At the point in the timeline Hans is most worried about, one Hop a day is a pipe dream. One Hop a week is probably optimistic, even assuming a drive works more than once before the blue smoke escapes.

 

[whulorigan]

Where in the T5 book are these hop-0 drives mentioned?

I believe my statement above was mentioned under the description of Hop-1 somewhere. It is not specifically called Hop-0, but it is the same analogy as a Jump-1 drive that is doing a minimal jump unofficially being called "Jump-0" - i.e. a "micro-jump" - anything less than or equal to J-1.

It actually might be in the existing errata document for the relevant section.

 

[robject]

By the way, hop drives are TL17 on the tables on page 338 and later in the technology chapter, but the text says it is TL18.

That's on the errata pile. I mentioned to Marc that TL18 seems to make grognards less panicky.

Where in the T5 book are these hop-0 drives mentioned?

I can find hop 1 being TL17 in two tables, and TL18 in the descriptive text (which is correct i wonder?) but no mention of hop 0.

Page 322, Drive Efficiency, explains that Experimental, Prototype, and Early drives which are ostensibly at rating 1, have no usable drive potential (i.e. they're rating 0). The Fuel Requirements table seems to indicate that the Experimental and Prototype rating-1 drives do not function (no fuel requirements = no operation), but an Early Hop-0 can function (it has fuel requirements). I think I'd like some clarity, though.

 

[mike wightman]

They are rating 1 in a 200t hull though aren't they? So the solution is a minimum hull size of 200t for your experimental, prototype and early drives.

You have hit on the problem of using the letter drive performance to equate to jump performance breakthrough which HG first brought up.

The LBB2 drive potential table and LBB3 drive TL is incompatible with the HG model. You can fudge it, you can hand wave, but there is a fundamental disconnect.

In CT a type A jump drive is capable of jump 2 in a 100t hull, yet according to HG jump 2 is impossible until TL11.

Another by the way - the fuel used description needs rewording. According to the text a hop 1 drive requires 1% fuel per parsec travelled, which means to go 10 parsecs you need 10%. But the example then gives a hop 2 ship requiring 2% to make a hop 2 which should be 20%.

 

[McPerth]

The idea of a prototype 2 TLs below standard introduction is one of the sillier ideas in T5.

TL4 prototype fission reactors, jump drive prototypes at TL7 etc...

I would apply the prototype designation to the first breakthrough items constructed, but still require the TL of the item to be observed, i.e, you have to be TL8 to build a fusion power plant. The early ones are classed as prototypes and so have the drawbacks with regards to size, efficiency and cost, but after a few years the standard model for the TL should become available.

That depend on what do you understand as prototype tech:

If you mean nowdays Earth could build jump drives: we don't have the theoretical knowledge for them.

If you mean a TL 7-8 impreial world could build Jump drives, having the theoretical knowledge of the TL 15 imperium, probably yes.

At TL16, the Darrians were capable of building a few Prototype TL18 Hop Drive-2s. As with the Experimental versions, these are only capable of Hop-1; however, with several examples, it is remotely possible that a few were installed on military or courier ships.

This doesn't really do much to canon. It could give pre-maghiz Darrians a very fast communications network. Or a couple of very mobile warships. There is next to no chance that these drives survived; however even if the relic fleet has a couple of these, it doesn't actually change canon.

IIRC CT Darrian alien book, they reached TL17 in re-maghiz times, so as you tell they probably could have built some those hop drives. Maybe that's why they still keep some pre-maghiz ships in their strategic reserve TL16 fleet, even when some of them were initially mechants...