The Loss of Imagination

[Supplement Four]

The catwalk is broken in places. That missile did a number on the drive room, even on a ship as big as this. Steam from the busted drives fills the room, even up here, and some heavier-than-air, noxious, green-colored gas fogs the floor. If you want to make it across engineering to the other side of the ship, safety, and the bridge, you'll have to make your precarious way on the damaged catwalk.

What do I need to roll?

Gimme a DEX check. Roll DEX or less. But, since the catwalk is so chewed up, you'll need to throw 3D for DEX or less instead of the normal 2D.

Whaaaa? You're kidding, right? Why can't I just throw a Difficult task? 2D for 11+, using DEX and END as my modifiers? That'll be a 2D for 8+, right?

No, it's a 3D for DEX or less check. Roll that.

But, why can't I just throw the task?

Because we're not playing MegaTraveller, and we're not using those rules. Throw 3D for DEX or less.

C'mon, man. Where does it say that I've got to throw DEX or less on THREE DICE? Uh?

No where.

Well, I want to see. Show me where that's a good throw.

Look...I'm the Game Ma...Oh, hell, OK. Just throw your boring 8+ on 2D and get it over with.

OK. (Smiles, happy now. He picks up the dice and shakes them vigoursly in his hand.) He were go!

You know, though, you had a better chance with the DEX for 3D or less, right?

Yeah, I, uh...whaaaa...?

Yeah. Your DEX is 10. That's a 50% throw on 3D. Your 2D for 8+ is actually harder...but, have it your way. Roll the 8+ on 2D.

Um..wait...let's talk about this...

 

[Blue Ghost]

The catwalk is broken in places. That missile did a number on the drive room, even on a ship as big as this. Steam from the busted drives fills the room, even up here, and some heavier-than-air, noxious, green-colored gas fogs the floor. If you want to make it across engineering to the other side of the ship, safety, and the bridge, you'll have to make your precarious way on the damaged catwalk.

What do I need to roll?

Gimme a DEX check. Roll DEX or less. But, since the catwalk is so chewed up, you'll need to throw 3D for DEX or less instead of the normal 2D.

Whaaaa? You're kidding, right? Why can't I just throw a Difficult task? 2D for 11+, using DEX and END as my modifiers? That'll be a 2D for 8+, right?

No, it's a 3D for DEX or less check. Roll that.

But, why can't I just throw the task?

Because we're not playing MegaTraveller, and we're not using those rules. Throw 3D for DEX or less.

C'mon, man. Where does it say that I've got to throw DEX or less on THREE DICE? Uh?

No where.

Well, I want to see. Show me where that's a good throw.

Look...I'm the Game Ma...Oh, hell, OK. Just throw your boring 8+ on 2D and get it over with.

OK. (Smiles, happy now. He picks up the dice and shakes them vigoursly in his hand.) He were go!

You know, though, you had a better chance with the DEX for 3D or less, right?

Yeah, I, uh...whaaaa...?

Yeah. Your DEX is 10. That's a 50% throw on 3D. Your 2D for 8+ is actually harder...but, have it your way. Roll the 8+ on 2D.

Um..wait...let's talk about this...

ROFL, I hate to admit it, but I've been the jerk player who tried to pull that kind of thing one time. I paid dearly

 

[casquilho]

The catwalk is broken in places. That missile did a number on the drive room, even on a ship as big as this. Steam from the busted drives fills the room, even up here, and some heavier-than-air, noxious, green-colored gas fogs the floor. If you want to make it across engineering to the other side of the ship, safety, and the bridge, you'll have to make your precarious way on the damaged catwalk.

What do I need to roll?

Gimme a DEX check. Roll DEX or less. But, since the catwalk is so chewed up, you'll need to throw 3D for DEX or less instead of the normal 2D.

Whaaaa? You're kidding, right? Why can't I just throw a Difficult task? 2D for 11+, using DEX and END as my modifiers? That'll be a 2D for 8+, right?

No, it's a 3D for DEX or less check. Roll that.

But, why can't I just throw the task?

Because we're not playing MegaTraveller, and we're not using those rules. Throw 3D for DEX or less.

C'mon, man. Where does it say that I've got to throw DEX or less on THREE DICE? Uh?

No where.

Well, I want to see. Show me where that's a good throw.

You are too kind as a GM. THis would have ended more like this in my games...

.....Well, I want to see. Show me where that's a good throw.

Fine, you failed. Next....

I do not feel obligated to "show" everything nor do I feel I owe a player to explain every judgement I make. I put in the work of designing the adventures, I do the prep ahead of time, I bring all the NPCs etc, and I sure as heck do not need the greef.

Daniel

 

[castiglione]

There's a certain amount of trust in old-school games.

The players have to trust the GM isn't going to arbitrarily have them come out of FTL in the middle of a sun or suddenly have a dragon have a heart attack in mid-flight, fall out of the sky and smush them as they're walking to the dungeon.

The GM has to trust that the players aren't going to try to break the reality he's creating and just flow with the go and just have fun.

 

[DaveChase]

I have not read all the posts (yet)

I notice that most Live Action Role Players seem to like the on the fly type game with strict world parameters.

Most book/table RPG players (today) seem to like the 'gear head' rule games (at least in my current opinion.)

I also believe that how much the players trust their GameMaster/DM makes a difference also. If you believe the GM shows favoritism or has cetain dislikes of the game that you happen to like very much then you want more proof of the reasons behind the actions of NPC/world or combat.

I personally have and still enjoy the gearhead part behind the scenes make things and such. But really want and try to play the character as developed/designed and/or as things happen.

This topic goes hand in hand with the discussions about games and players. If players want a certain type of game and the game master wants a different type then there might be problems. It is important to talk with and work with the players as GM and players with players in the game to make the game fun.

Just my thoughts.
for now

Dave Chase

 

[rust]

The preference seems to be on games with tons of rules.

On the other hand, there is a kind of "anti-rules movement", with a trend
towards very "slim" RPGs (e.g. Expendables, Hard Nova II or the upcoming
Thousand Suns) and a strong emphasis on storytelling instead of rules me-
chanics.

Over here, Savage Worlds is often cited as a good example of a "modern"
RPG, and - according to the discussions on the forums - many players here
would love to see a "simple and generic" (German) RPG system.

 

[far-trader]

Some of my best memories of RPG moments were rule lite, roll lite, role heavy. Oh sure the reason I remember them may be for the lucky roll, but it was always the role context that set up the memorable moments.

A classic example was a D&D fix I was in where I role played and instead of saying "I attack." or "What do I need to hit." I said "...and I cut off her head."

The ref said "Roll a natural 20 and you do." Implying (or stating maybe) anything else was a miss and I (as well as the rest of the party) was dead. No arguments from me, a bit of a pout that we were all screwed from everyone. Naturally I rolled a 20 cold (hey I was as surprised as anyone) and christened a new lucky die

The other players were happy in anticipation of me coming to their rescue. Too bad for them my character was Lawful Evil and decided to cut his losses rather than risk it, leaving them to provide some distraction and cover for his own escape :file_23:

Roll players, min/maxers, rules lawyers, just don't know what they're missing from a good role playing game, well paced, and with a good seat of the pants ref keeping the action moving.

 

[Supplement Four]

What about the bias towards "new" games. A new game comes out, and I guess I understand the excitement of discovering the new setting and mechanics.

But...why isn't there the same frenzied feeling when discovering an out of print that no one in your gaming group has ever played before?

I mean, it's still new to you and your group, right?

There seems to be a distaste for older, out-of-print games, even if no body the person games with has ever played the game.

I'm the opposite. I find older games that turn me on as much as I do when I see a new game I want to play. High Colonies is one that I think I'll delve into one day. There's just something about it that intrigues me. The same thing goes for Mercenaries, Spies & Private Eyes. I've never played MS&P, but I own the box set. And, I'll do something with it one of these days (if I don't die of old age first...so many games, so little time to play).

I've played the 007 rpg game before, but not a lot of it. I've actually purchased everything that was ever printed for Bond--and I bet I'll never play it all.

Blue Planet, Fading Suns, Journe, and Harn...all older games that I hope to look into one day and unlock their secrets.

There are many more.

But, why the bias against older, out of print games? Why do many players thumb their noses at these older games and then start salivatating for the new games.

Why not fall in love with both?

 

[rust]

But, why the bias against older, out of print games? Why do many players thumb their noses at these older games and then start salivatating for the new games.

I am not quite sure whether this is true. There is a lot of trade going on with
PDFs of out-of-print RPGs, and I know of several groups which have started
playing some of the "old" games (e.g. Space 1889).
It seems to me that much of this interest in "old" games is somewhat "invisi-
ble", because one does not see the games at the stores, only on download
pages and the like.

 

[Supplement Four]

Naturally I rolled a 20 cold (hey I was as surprised as anyone) and christened a new lucky die

Awesome!

I had a 20-rollin-son-of-a-gun player back in the D&D days. He'd throw a natural 20 as sure as look at you. And, it was die independent. I got suspicious and made him use my dice. It didn't matter. 20. 20. 20. 17 (Ha! It's a vorpal weapon, off with his head just as if I'd rolled a natural 20!).

We were at the game store, one day, me and this player. I was looking at some other material and I wandered back over to find him. He was looking through a glass case at some colored dice.

"Whatcha doing?" I said as I approached.

"Buyin' new dice".

"Oh, Great!" I said, with a roll of my eyes.

"I'll take that set." He said to the clerk, pointing at a set of dice, all color matched, black with red dots. "I'll get those."

I noticed that he hadn't even touched the dice. He just looked through the case and picked the ones that he liked. Now, I know most of you have been to the game store and either bought dice yourself or have seen other people buying dice. It's never as simple as pointing through the glass and buying.

Nooo.... You've got to try them out. See how the feel in your hand. See how they roll. I once saw a dumbstruck cashier waiting on a very nerdy looking dude who was going through the entire dice display, rolling each one, only picking those that rolled higher than the others, systematcially mentally ranking each die in an effor to pick the very best one.

Well, my friend didn't do that. The 20 roller. He just picked a set and went with it. The first time he even touched the dice, he owned them.

So, I said, "I'm surprised you didn't roll them a few times...you know, try them out."

"No need." He replied.

"Why?" I said.

That's when he smiled at me, shook his new dice in his hand, and said, "Because, baby! These are the DEATH DICE!!!"



Flash forward to our next game.

All I'll say is that his new set of black dice with the red markings lived up to their christening. o:

Roll players, min/maxers, rules lawyers, just don't know what they're missing from a good role playing game, well paced, and with a good seat of the pants ref keeping the action moving.

Amen!

I see this happen even in PC games (as some have mentioned). I mean, why the hell would you even want a cheat code?

 

[tbeard1999]

The same thing goes for Mercenaries, Spies & Private Eyes. I've never played MS&P, but I own the box set. And, I'll do something with it one of these days (if I don't die of old age first...so many games, so little time to play).

For what it's worth, I think that MSPE is very good. It's basically a refined version of Tunnels and Trolls (one of the all-time best dungeon crawl RPGs) with skills. So, you can use T&T characters, monsters and gear as well. It's fast, playable and works especially well in Pulp settings. I toyed long ago with doing a Traveller conversion, but lost focus.

I strongly encourage you to try it out sometime. It really could have been a contender. (I'd probably use IQx1.5 for skill points, though).

Other Suns is a good example of how to adapt Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying System into a Sci-Fi game. So is Ringworld, though tech is pretty overwhelming (faithful to the books, though). It has the same kind of space opera feel as, uh, Space Opera.

 

[jawillroy]

Oh I simply ADORE Tunnels & Trolls. Love it. One book, thassit, boom. DONE.

 

[tbeard1999]

Oh I simply ADORE Tunnels & Trolls. Love it. One book, thassit, boom. DONE.

And the most optimized Dungeon crawling RPG ever IMHO.

If you don't have it, you really should get hold of MSPE (I think Flying Buffalo still sells it). It's T&T with skills and modern weapons.

 

[castiglione]

And the most optimized Dungeon crawling RPG ever IMHO.

It was actually more. I've been going over some old T & T stuff that I have and there are articles in Sorcerer's Apprentice about how to world build, set up scenarios like MURDER MYSTERIES in T & T. There's also an article by Ken St. Andre in the afterword of the 1st British edition of T & T where he talks about creating alternate worlds to the one in T & T where most of the adventuring takes place in open steppes and cities and such. I agree it's a great dungeon crawl RPG but it's interesting how the articles in Sorcerer's Apprentice quickly focused on taking adventures out of the dungeon and so forth.

 

[jawillroy]

I ran a very satisfying T&T campaign which only occasionally found its way into traditional crawls - but when it did, it was delightful as well!

 

[castiglione]

I don't recall who wrote the murder mystery article for Sorcerer's Apprentice but it went into considerable detail about what kind of clues should be available to the PC's in going about trying to solve the mystery and also emphasized that you should really intertwine the murder mystery with the fantasy world you're in (otherwise, you might as well dig out the game Cluedo!). It had stuff on alibis, etc. Great stuff. Especially in a setting with magic, it just creates the opportunity for plenty of red herrings to get thrown into the party's path, i.e. did the alehouse wench REALLY see Malik the Rogue leave the victim's abode at 11:00 PM...or was it a doppelganger or an illusion?

 

[Icosahedron]

It seems to me that much of this interest in "old" games is somewhat "invisi-
ble", because one does not see the games at the stores, only on download
pages and the like.

True. I think it's a matter of access. You can go to the shop and buy the new ones, and the more media-hyped they are, the easier they are to find.

OTOH, the old out of print ones have to be searched for - if you can be bothered.

Just the last week or so I've been checking out the free RPG 'market'. There are one or two pretty good games out there, and I'm getting quite enthused about them. Mainly, I'm trawling for ideas to help design my own Travellerish melee rules, but I'm gonna be trying out a few for their own sake.

Some of these are old, some are new - but they're all available!

 

[Icosahedron]

If you don't have it, you really should get hold of MSPE (I think Flying Buffalo still sells it). It's T&T with skills and modern weapons.

I was tempted enough to visit their website, but at 10 usd for the game and a further 16 usd for p&p, no thanks.

Maybe if they decide to do a PDF.

 

[aramis]

And the most optimized Dungeon crawling RPG ever IMHO.

If you don't have it, you really should get hold of MSPE (I think Flying Buffalo still sells it). It's T&T with skills and modern weapons.

T&T 7 is a worthy (if different) step up on T&T.

Nicest thing about T&T and MSPE: one resolution mechanic. Used throughout.

Why are newer games "better"? In the case of T&T, T&T7 gives a skill system, without breaking the base mechanics. It's a distinct improvement. (I've used MSPE's skill system for years in T&T5.x)

In many cases, tho', newer isn't so much better. I won't use Pendragon 5th... when I run KAP, I continue to use 4th. WHy? because it is a better set of rules, and more complete set of rules. (5th lacks landholding rules for other than knights; major landholders are not covered.) But I do have KAP5 and GPC.

New editions of old games provide changes to setting, and usually, improved mechanics. Not everyone agrees with those "improvements."

 

[tbeard1999]

T&T 7 is a worthy (if different) step up on T&T.

Nicest thing about T&T and MSPE: one resolution mechanic. Used throughout.

Not really. While T&T does have the first RPG task roll system--it calls them "saving throws"--(2d6 + adds, reroll doubles and add, make target number or higher for success, 4- always fails), the melee combat system uses a completely different mechanic (which works better than the task system IMHO). The missile combat system uses the 2d6 task roll system, which works fine in that capacity. The same is true of MSPE. So Ken St. Andre was astute enough to *not* use his task system if there was a better alternative...