The Loss of Imagination

[tbeard1999]

It was actually more. I've been going over some old T & T stuff that I have and there are articles in Sorcerer's Apprentice about how to world build, set up scenarios like MURDER MYSTERIES in T & T. There's also an article by Ken St. Andre in the afterword of the 1st British edition of T & T where he talks about creating alternate worlds to the one in T & T where most of the adventuring takes place in open steppes and cities and such. I agree it's a great dungeon crawl RPG but it's interesting how the articles in Sorcerer's Apprentice quickly focused on taking adventures out of the dungeon and so forth.

T&T's uncluttered mechanics and rules lite approach made it easy for a competent GM to run any sort of game. And as MSPE shows, the system was easy to modify into a second generation game. But it really shined in dungeon crawls. According to the designer, he played D&D once, thought "a great idea, but what a crappy implementation", and designed T&T in response. By focusing on the things he hated in D&D, T&T became a very focused design. It's a true classic and has never (IMHO) gotten the credit it was due.

Of course, it does have issues (what game doesn't?). But I've found the major issues very easy to fix (and not game killers in any case).

Unlike some other folks, I did not care for T&T 7. Like certain other redos, it changed things that didn't need changing and failed to fix other issues.

 

[castiglione]

I didn't care for T & T 7E either. I got it, thought the box was cute, skimmed through the rules and just put it away. Somehow, it just didn't FEEL right to me.

As for T & T not getting respect, I was pretty surprised when I first started reading rpg.net at the acknowledgemenets it got for this and that. I enjoyed playing MSPE as well and I was pretty sad that the sci-fi version of it (set in the STARWEB universe) was never completed.

 

[aramis]

T&T 7 is no replacement for T&T 5.x; it's really a different game; ne, two different games (7K and 7FD) (And T&T 5.5 is still in print as well.) Kind of like how AD&D vs D&D coexisted.

As for the combat system using a different mechanic: no, it just presumes (unless circumstances and GM dictate otherwise) that a hit will occur, no roll to hit neded. When there is doubt, it's saving roll time. (A couple of solos did this, so it's not just my style.)

I, too, would love to see the Starweb universe adaptation.

Fundamentally, tho', many older games did lack playability. Some, however, were real gems.

I've introduced many people to older games, only to have them get upset when they can't find the rules available, or worse, find newer editions which are not mechanically compatiple. (Traveller, WFRP, a few others.)

 

[tbeard1999]

T&T 7 is no replacement for T&T 5.x; it's really a different game; ne, two different games (7K and 7FD) (And T&T 5.5 is still in print as well.) Kind of like how AD&D vs D&D coexisted.

As for the combat system using a different mechanic: no, it just presumes (unless circumstances and GM dictate otherwise) that a hit will occur, no roll to hit neded. When there is doubt, it's saving roll time. (A couple of solos did this, so it's not just my style.)

The melee combat system works like this:

1. Each side rolls combat dice and adds modifiers ("adds"). The highest total scores the difference in damage on the other. Armor reduces damage taken.

2. If the GM feels it's warranted, he can grant a Luck* saving throw to avoid damage taken.

So the primary mechanism for handling melee combat does not rely on the universal task mechanic.

The missile combat system does use the task system--you make a task roll to hit the target. If you hit, then you do damage (armor subtracts damage).

But the two systems are very different mechanically. (And both work very well in play).

Still looks to me like St. Andre was perfectly willing to discard the task roll system if there were better mechanics available. At the very least, T&T clearly does not use the same mechanic for every major system.

*Luck is an attribute in T&T/MSPE.

 

[castiglione]

I, too, would love to see the Starweb universe adaptation.

I thought the Starweb universe would've made a great setting. It was a bit insane with all the crazy stuff going on but that was half the appeal; you had berzerkers and goodlife running around trying to destroy humanity, you had merchants shipping cargo from A to B, pirates running amuck and plundering worlds like star vikings, you had religious fanatic converting populations and declaring holy wars, machiavellian empire builders attempting to expand their pocket empires and crazy collectors of ancient and forgotten artifacts running around trying to grab this and that and stuffing it all in a museum. Plus, you needed ancient artifacts (keys) for interstellar travel.

 

[castiglione]

So the primary mechanism for handling melee combat does not rely on the universal task mechanic.

That's probably because combat was meant to be fast and abstract. Using saving rolls in combat would tend to "non-abstract-ify" it. However, examples were given in Sorcerer's Apprentice for running more detailed fights (calling shots, gladiator fights, etc.). The solitaire module Arena of Khazan was almost like a case study of how you could "crunch-ify" or "detail-ify" T & T combat using saving rolls.

I think that Ken St. Andre didn't really intend for saving rolls to be a universal task resolution. If you read the early edition of the rules and the early T & T solos, it's clear that they were intended to be used with the LUCK attribute to determine whether your character lucked out and survived something like a trap or whatever. I think it later dawned on St. Andre and everyone else he was playing with that the saving rolls could be applied to EVERY attribute around the time between the 4th and 5th editions and they just ran with it and never turned back.

 

[Knightsky]

I was tempted enough to visit their website, but at 10 usd for the game and a further 16 usd for p&p, no thanks.

Maybe if they decide to do a PDF.

Flying Buffalo has recently (in the last month or so) put some T&T adventures for sale as PDFs on the DriveThruRPG site. If they sell well, a MSPE PDF for sale may be a possibility in the future.

 

[jawillroy]

Truth be told, once I learned T&T, I dropped D&D.

 

[Whitestreak1]

One of the most memorable and enjoyable beyond belief campaigns in which I played was a CT based Star Wars campaign while I was stationed in Spain from 1983-1985.

It was the first time I had played in a Star Wars campaign.

We also were involved in a CT campaign.

We usually started at the rec center on base and ended up at someone's off-base apartment.

It was amazing just how much imagination and simple GM fiat went into those game sessions.

"I walk up behind the troublemaker, point my SMG at his back and pull the trigger." The GM looks at the troublemaking PC. "You're dead." GM looks at the first player. "Luckily, his armor prevents the rounds from coming thru and hitting the Imperial Marines."

 

[pendragonman]

Awesome!

I had a 20-rollin-son-of-a-gun player back in the D&D days. He'd throw a natural 20 as sure as look at you. And, it was die independent. I got suspicious and made him use my dice. It didn't matter. 20. 20. 20. 17 (Ha! It's a vorpal weapon, off with his head just as if I'd rolled a natural 20!)...

I have always had an affinity with the dice, especially in stress situations. Doesn't matter whos dice they are. Truth be told, I don't believe in "lucky" dice, since to believe in "lucky" dice implies that there are "unlucky" dice. These are attributes of the die roller.

In fact, I pick my die out the same way your example does. I examine the case until I find the set I like, point an purchase. No rolling them or even touching them before I pay. They from then on roll what I need, when I need it, almost every time.

Hopefully, this POKE will get Toad Smoking Duck Monkey to tell you a story about a burnt out Tie fighter pilot I played for a bit when he ran WEG Star Wars. Its a good story, and he tells it better than me.

 

[Supplement Four]

"Burnt out" TIE Fighter Pilot...

I like the sound of that.

Do tell.

 

[ToadSmokingDuckMonkey]

Since this is off-topic

AND it is somewhat of a monster post (800+ words; I consider 500+ "monster post" territory)

AND it will be multi-part (the story of How Chucky Got His Groove Back By Taking It From The GM is a long one...)

Where on COTI should it go? (the adventures forum states "Tell us your Traveller character stats, skills, and details." (emphasis mine))

OR barring COTI, where should it go?

 

[aramis]

TSDM: Random Static.

 

[ToadSmokingDuckMonkey]

Aramis: thanks.

The post is up in random static here

 

[Icosahedron]

Flying Buffalo has recently (in the last month or so) put some T&T adventures for sale as PDFs on the DriveThruRPG site. If they sell well, a MSPE PDF for sale may be a possibility in the future.

Cheers, Knightsky, I'll keep an eye open.

 

[castiglione]

Icos,

you can probably find a copy of MSPE over in the UK. FBInc used to have their products distributed by Chris Harvey who ran FBI(UK) back in the 80's or so.

Cheers.

 

[pendragonman]

S-4, TSDM is posting the burnt out Tie fighter stuff in Random Static

 

[Supplement Four]

S-4, TSDM is posting the burnt out Tie fighter stuff in Random Static

I read it! Cracked me up, especially the last post about leaving him in the bacta tank!