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The Merchant Fleet in the Spinward Marches

If you have 10,000t-100,000t tradeships transporting TL15 manufactured goods around the Spinward Marches in the volumes you suggest I have a hard time accepting that TL15 gear is anything but common on every world in the Marches.
If these tradeships transport TL15 spare parts to every type A and B starport in the Marches then every type A and B starport can maintain ships up to TL15 and therefore local world TL doesn't count towards starport TL - which provides evidence for my hypothesis that all starports should be the TL of the ruling polity within the 3I setting.
 
You have to build the ships first, which would be a massive initial capital outlay.

A caravan would seem a more digestible solution for the Spinward Marches.
 
While we sort out the flow i am interested in the ships. Me and my brother talk about this from time to time. Are these major cargo vessel that basically hover over a planet and suck up all their goods and people every year? or are they high jump Jump Tender ships that jump in burn to the highport and take on different cargo ships or other ships needing a lift. I like the tender ships because it allows for less jump capable ships to move between routes or move faster if they have the credits. A j-4 Jump Tender could care 100,000 tons of ships or 500 free traders. or 10 massive liners/cargo shipd

I think the actual ships would be up to the gamemaster, universe-developer, demigod, whatever we want to call them. A tender has clear advantages, but there are only 7-8 blue "Major" routes in the entire Marches, one serving Darrian, one serving Rhylanor, one serving Trin, four in the Mora subsector and one leading out of Mora subsector to the neighboring sector. Some, like the Rhylanor-Porozlo route, are huge-pop worlds, and much of the trade is likely to stay within the two worlds of those routes because the worlds involved have huge pops and likely have equally huge appetites for the trade that's coming in, so big ships could serve those. Some, like Trin-Ramiva and Fornice-Maitz, look more like trade is passing through toward someplace else: tenders would work well for those routes, with the riders hopping from one tender to another and possibly jump capable so they can hop the final route of a feeder or minor without needing to spend time moving loads. It'd have to be a pretty nice cargo to justify the expense of multiple jumps, but I could see some pretty nice cargoes coming out of a TL15 major world.

If you have 10,000t-100,000t tradeships transporting TL15 manufactured goods around the Spinward Marches in the volumes you suggest I have a hard time accepting that TL15 gear is anything but common on every world in the Marches.
If these tradeships transport TL15 spare parts to every type A and B starport in the Marches then every type A and B starport can maintain ships up to TL15 and therefore local world TL doesn't count towards starport TL - which provides evidence for my hypothesis that all starports should be the TL of the ruling polity within the 3I setting.

Well, lessee. I'm running off the wiki data, and I'm going to assume that most or all TL15 exports stay within the Imperium, first because the four major worlds that produce them are deep in Marches Imperial space and second because some of it would be restricted for export to prevent items and knowledge with potential military applications from ending up in the wrong hands. The four TL 15 Imperial worlds account for 44% of the Imperial Marches GWP and 49% of the Imperial Marches interstellar trade economy. If we drop my assumption and take the Marches as a whole, it drops to 31% and 37%. Interstellar trade only accounts for 0.4% of the economies of the four worlds in question, so serving that trade is not terribly difficult for them to do. Of course, some of that stuff is not high tech gear - it's going to be common stuff produced using high tech processes to increase output and decrease overhead, in order to achieve a higher profit margin.

So, yeah, TL15 gear ought to be pretty easy to come by, although it's going to be pricier than it would be if you were on Mora or Trin or suchlike. Of course, some world governments may restrict imports to their own citizens for their own reasons. Consumer goods like entertainment devices are one thing. Having your electrical grid dependent on parts that have to be shipped in from 20 parsecs away, or giving your citizens access to technology that might be used to undermine local government (like devices that could be used to counterfeit money or IDs, or electronics that could be used to tap or hack the local information network, or 3-D printers that could be used to produce contraband weapons) might be a very different thing in the minds of the local government leaders.

Add: Oh, I should add that interstellar trade only accounts for a tiny percentage of most world economies, so while the goods are getting there, the vast majority of the stuff being traded back and forth within a given world is local product. I figure you've got something like a starport import store where you can go to for the really cool stuff, but away from the starport it might be a lot harder for people to get hold of the cool gear - and it's more expensive to them in terms of percentage of their per capita income than it would be for some feller on a TL15 world, so they might settle for cheaper low tech. A TL7 boom box might be easier to afford for a local than a TL15 wristband-controlled polysymphonic earbud.
 
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I'm going to assume that most or all TL15 exports stay within the Imperium, first because the four major worlds that produce them are deep in Marches Imperial space and second because some of it would be restricted for export to prevent items and knowledge with potential military applications from ending up in the wrong hands.

seems more coherent just to say that the tech 15 capability is mostly absorbed by the navy and marines and scout service and imperial nobility.
 
seems more coherent just to say that the tech 15 capability is mostly absorbed by the navy and marines and scout service and imperial nobility.

Except that it isn't. It's a believable excuse to hand players, but it fails when you run the numbers. By any measure, those four worlds are dominant economic forces in the Marches because of their large populations. You have to scrap a lot of canon and radically increase the size of the Imperial Navy for that to work, since their capital outlay is likely to be the biggest chunk of Imperial spending. That can be fun in its own right, if you like the idea of epic fleet battles, but it has implications at the player level: the sector loses much of its frontier feel.

Heck, the IN at just canon levels makes it hard to justify the kind of frontier that a player would enjoy. You have to scrap some canon assumptions, or the effort to make a canon navy that's competent to detect and respond to intrusions makes for an intolerably civilized frontier. The sector's more fun if you assume the various navies are squeezing by on a shoestring budget - and confining most military assets to the highest value subsectors - because wealthy interests are more interested in trade than war.
 
You have to build the ships first, which would be a massive initial capital outlay.

A caravan would seem a more digestible solution for the Spinward Marches.

It's been 100's of years. That capital, that build up, etc. has come and gone. It's all maintenance and fights over fractions of market share now.
 
the sector loses much of its frontier feel.

loses much of its frontier feel if you have ten walmart ships over each world too.

it has implications at the player level

if the players operate at that level, sure. but logically most of the imperial sector and line fleets (of any size or tech level) will be tied up at jewell/efate/quar/regina, with a few line fleets and battle groups at junidy, karin, and lunion. and it's also logical that some mora/trin production is sent to the next sector trailing (deneb?) to make up for it's lack of population and capacity. and if tech 15 ships must be maintained at tech 15 yards (and space must be found for them) then there's a fairly hard limit to fleet sizes and deployments. this leaves plenty of room for frontierness.
 
loses much of its frontier feel if you have ten walmart ships over each world too.

Okay, so Porozlo's not exactly Dodge City, but I doubt Dinom is attracting an Orb-Mart. The uber-ship phenomenon tends to confine itself to the major and main routes. With 62 Imperial minor routes and 115 systems off the grid entirely, there's a lot of real estate out there that sees nothing bigger than about 400 dT, if that. Just 'cause New York City was big in the 1880's doesn't mean Las Cruces was.


...if the players operate at that level, sure. but logically most of the imperial sector and line fleets (of any size or tech level) will be tied up at jewell/efate/quar/regina, with a few line fleets and battle groups at junidy, karin, and lunion. and it's also logical that some mora/trin production is sent to the next sector trailing (deneb?) to make up for it's lack of population and capacity. and if tech 15 ships must be maintained at tech 15 yards (and space must be found for them) then there's a fairly hard limit to fleet sizes and deployments. this leaves plenty of room for frontierness.

On the other hand, the effort to put out enough ships to spot and report on an intruding enemy fleet makes it unlikely the players will ever find themselves in a system where they can't yell for help. It's not the battlewagons creating the headache. It's the supports they need to do their job.

And, it's unlikely the Navy is restricted to tech 15 ports for maintenance. Those ships need to be able to go forth and do war, get repaired after battle, possibly find themselves under siege at Jewell with only the local base to maintain and repair them. The Navy will have their own trained personnel, their own repair slips, and they'll be importing and storing enough to meet their needs in war at places like Jewell, Efate and Regina.

IMTU I hold the Imperial fleets to Mora/Rhylanor/Trin/Glisten because that's the real estate worth protecting, and because the Imperium and the Zho have settled into an unwritten agreement to keep major elements back so they don't accidentally trigger a costly war for subsectors of marginal value. Second and Third Frontier Wars were shockingly expensive, and destabilizing for the Imperium, and both sides would like to avoid a repeat. Fourth Frontier War was a war of escorts and "colonial" cruisers. They do their border wars with lighter ships like Kinunir and hold back the big stuff to the rear unless they see the other guy's big stuff entering the fray. Forward naval bases hold the support structure needed for the fleets to come forward if needed, but they primarily host ships under 2000 dTons and are space-mobile, retreating to the outer system until reinforcement arrives if a serious threat develops. The major worlds of the border region have enough in the way of monitors, SDBs, planetary defense batteries and ground troops to buy time for a response if either side decides to commit heavies.

According to the Wiki map, there's a major route taking an average ten million dTons out from Dojodo into Deneb sector, most likely production from Mora. Also a main line taking an average million dTons. Accounts for maybe half of Mora's production between them. I've no idea what's coming back in on those routes.
 
It's not the battlewagons creating the headache. It's the supports they need to do their job.

well, those would be with the fleets.

And, it's unlikely the Navy is restricted to tech 15 ports for maintenance.

imtu I say 15 boats in 15 yards, anything else is ad-hoc field maintenance with accompanying degrades. 'course you can rule whatever you want, but I just don't see it otherwise. 'course you can extend it by saying all A yards with naval bases are adequate, but you're still stuck with capacity issues, e.g. jewell will not be able to service all of the mora/trin boats.

hold the Imperial fleets to Mora/Rhylanor/Trin/Glisten because that's the real estate worth protecting

the "keep the fleet in san diego where it belongs" approach. can work. looking at jewell/efate I prefer the "pearl harbor" approach.

(and ... is the duke at regina? he's not going to want to have to send all the way to mora/trin for fleet elements to deploy ....)

the Imperium and the Zho have settled into an unwritten agreement to keep major elements back so they don't accidentally trigger a costly war for subsectors of marginal value.

nothing wrong with that, easily justifiable, a great game feature for the setting. but given the four previous wars I just don't buy it - wars are not little accidental things, they happen for reasons, and four previous wars indicates a good solid reason.


great name, love it.
 
well, those would be with the fleets. ...

Except that support includes intelligence. The fleet is next to useless without intelligence, which means ships out watching the systems and ready to jump back to a base to report.

...imtu I say 15 boats in 15 yards, anything else is ad-hoc field maintenance with accompanying degrades. 'course you can rule whatever you want, but I just don't see it otherwise. 'course you can extend it by saying all A yards with naval bases are adequate, but you're still stuck with capacity issues, e.g. jewell will not be able to service all of the mora/trin boats....

I can't see the IN putting in a base at Jewell and then not being able to repair its TL15 ships without sending them back 18 parsecs to a TL15 port. The bases are repairing fleets in FFW (the game), and a besieged Jewell would need to be able to repair the friendly ships there. I really can't see any reason the Navy wouldn't set up its own repair facilities, and the naval base facilities would presumably be designed to meet whatever capacity the IN decided was appropriate. It's pretty clear that the bases at Pixie and Paya aren't depending on local industry.


...nothing wrong with that, easily justifiable, a great game feature for the setting. but given the four previous wars I just don't buy it - wars are not little accidental things, they happen for reasons, and four previous wars indicates a good solid reason. ...

Well, the first three weren't accidental, but they'd have been pretty expensive. If you accept the Wiki then #4 was an unplanned war, triggered by an incident at Quar. I am mindful of the history of the American West: the Civil War armies that fought in New Mexico and Texas were a good deal more humble than their counterparts in the East. Likewise, the European navies of the 19th century through WW-I tended to put most of their force in the seas around Europe and in the Mediterranean, with battles in the periphery being fought by individual ships or small task forces. The American Revolution began in part because the cost of defending the colonies was burdensome on the Brits and they were trying to cover some of their costs.

If you assume the fleet as described in canon is what they can afford, then the real estate of the Marches outside of the Trin-Mora-Glisten-Rhylanor region isn't worth the cost in ships of a full scale war. If you follow Striker or TCS, the Imperium has the income from the sector to field a fleet 5 to 10 times larger than canon presents - and it's a pretty tame Marches if you make the fleet 5 to 10 times larger - but the real estate of the Marches outside of the Trin-Mora-Glisten-Rhylanor region still isn't worth the cost in ships of a full scale war.
 
real estate of the Marches outside of the Trin-Mora-Glisten-Rhylanor region isn't worth the cost in ships of a full scale war.

if wars are about money. and efate, lunion, strouden, jewell, louzy, rethe, and junidy might have something to say about that. not to mention chronor, cipango, and riverland, could they still speak. and isn't the sector duke in residence at regina? he seems to have an opinion on the matter.

I can't see the IN putting in a base at Jewell and then not being able to repair its TL15 ships without sending them back 18 parsecs to a TL15 port.

the united states has naval bases at guam and pearl harbor which supply but do not maintain warships. whenever we would deploy they'd send us all the way across the pacific and then the indian ocean to sail around off of iran, and then all the way back to maintain the boat.
 
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Pearl does do some maintenance; in WWII, it even had some construction yards.

Checking, Pearl actualy has a maintenance facility... found a 2010 article on navy.mil talking about a cruise ship using a drydock at PHNSY...
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=54996

Pearl did quite a bit of repair and maintenance during World War 2, including refitting submarines with updated equipment. Then there was the salvage and partial repairs for the sunken and damaged battleships from the December 7 attack, along with three cruisers and a couple of other ships.
 
And of course Hawaii did not have the industry to support a port. Everything in terms of machinery and parts and even lubricants and fuel had to be imported.
if wars are about money. and efate, lunion, strouden, jewell, louzy, rethe, and junidy might have something to say about that. not to mention chronor, cipango, and riverland, could they still speak. and isn't the sector duke in residence at regina? he seems to have an opinion on the matter. ...

Well, the Zhodani worlds don't get a say in Imperial affairs. Last I knew, the only Imperials that get a say at the level of Imperial decision-making were the nobility, and that is subject to the whim of the Emperor. His Grace Norris would certainly have an opinion, given that his home is right at the front lines. Whether it would be enough to decide things would be up to the world designer, in this case. Regina is the most populous subsector in the Imperial Marches, but much of that rests on Rethe, which as a TL8 E port doesn't seem too interested in participating in the Imperial economy.

2/3 of the Imperial population is in the Glisten/Mora/Rhylanor/Trin region. 87% of Imperial trade is in that region. If you play FFW or read through SMC, one thing that's pretty clear is that putting major forces on the front line only results in their getting cut off and either besieged or defeated in detail, so the military sense in thrusting capital ships forward isn't there. Putting them in the rear makes the Imperium less threatening and therefore less likely to trigger a war, ensures that the most important real estate gets protected, and leaves them grouped as a concentrated threat should the Zho make a hostile move. Same logic applies to the Zho. The real debate is over how big that force needs to be and what needs to be in that frontier area to provide warning and deal with raiders and such.

Data on the Imperial Marches (I excluded non-Imperial worlds)
PopulationGWP (BCr)Trade (MCr/year)Passengers / yearBuild
5-sisters803,869,6003,03844,8031,765,600903,050
Aramis32,789,226,800114,09389,659101,80035,889,799
District 26860,030,000585,032222,6509,000
Glisten22,434,485,000182,251807,580765,75024,305,399
Jewell16,012,525,02069,78145,609946,50017,912,298
Lanth1,042,270,1502,08053,741364,0001,063,748
Lunion20,100,281,500149,468212,300817,90021,759,848
Mora40,857,329,920382,4201,942,9991,890,30045,361,899
Regina60,582,950,110146,181146,0354,710,30067,638,396
Rhylanor36,594,312,920224,3321,433,4341,299,20037,200,849
Sword Worlds71,600,0604944,233186,30070,000
Trin15,205,799,800222,025597,6063,661,20015,818,549
Vilis9,867,140,01043,96291,478217,9008,266,000
total256,421,820,8901,540,1835,474,50916,949,400276,198,835

What is "Build"?
 
Data on the Darrian and Sword Worlds polities, to complete the set.
PopulationGWP (BCr)Trade (MCr/year)Passengers / yearBuild
Darrian14,597,481,200119,8751,244,1231,346,70015,945,850
Sword Worlds45,553,300,000263,045356,3508,459,65045,947,800

Just a sec, transcription errors.

Okay, double checked, something in the passenger column isn't right. Roget in Darrian space is showing one intermediate route, two feeders, and a minor route, but in the Wiki it's getting more passengers per year than Darrian. That doesn't seem right. http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Spinward_Marches_Sector/economic/Milieu_1116
 
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"Build" I assume is build tons per year.

I'd say those passenger numbers are off by a factor of a hundred, although your math be correct. My rule of thumb is that interstellar travel is one in a million.

Your mileage varies, of course. Looks like GURPS numbers? I think they like bigger numbers.
 
"Build" I assume is build tons per year.

I'd say those passenger numbers are off by a factor of a hundred, although your math be correct. My rule of thumb is that interstellar travel is one in a million.

Your mileage varies, of course. Looks like GURPS numbers? I think they like bigger numbers.

GURPS numbers, I think. They're from the Wiki page, but some of it isn't matching up the way I'd expect. Sword Worlds for example is doing a lot of passenger traffic and not as much trade. Maybe the source is something other than GURPS.
 
If I interpret GURPS trade correctly, there's quite a bit of multi-jump trade between places like Rhylanor and Regina, Efate or Jewell. Quite a bit between Mora and a whole lotta places. That being said, it seems that shipping breaks into two types: single-jump freighters and lighters (barges?) being carried on tenders and moved from tender to tender between jumps by tugs so they can make one jump per week along the main and intermediate routes. If I have the numbers right, the feeder routes - with about 700 dTons average coming in on a daily basis - might have some traffic coming in from distant ports that would use a lighter tender. Despite the costs increasing several-fold, the actual costs are negligible, amounting to a credit per 13.5 liters volume per jump which isn't going to make much difference to the type of goods communities would be ordering from Sears catalogs for delivery from Mora 3 months from now.

I see tenders as ranging from big hundred-thousand-plus dTon dispersed structures, that end up looking like porcupines for the initial leg from Rhylanor to Porozlo, to smaller tenders down to about a thousand dTons carrying 3 or 4 200 dT lighters for the small routes (seems to be a convenient size, small enough that one lighter can carry the goods for one stop all the way from origin down the chain and through a feeder to a destination). The various routes, certainly the feeder-and-up sized routes, are likely to be mostly regular scheduled traffic, probably from well-established carriers, with small ships picking up the overflow.

An advantage of the tenders - I think others have pointed this out - is you can hop in your fancy yacht and hitch a ride for a suitable price along the route to where you want to get off, at a week a jump, then undock and jump to wherever it is you wanted to go, assuming it wasn't somewhere on the route itself. Isn't cheap, but it's quick and will get you places your yacht might not otherwise be able to reach. Also a more secure way to travel for those mindful of such things, since you're not worrying about other passengers and, in the most extreme case, can undock and jump away from danger (as when the tender arrives at Jewell only to discover the Zho have just started a war).

Passenger traffic is likely to be concentrated in dedicated liners except on minor routes, to most efficiently use the space allocation to get the kind of luxuries that draw passengers to one ship over another - again with overflow being picked up by small ships. If you didn't buy your ticket in advance, you fly slum class.
 
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