The Missing Worlds of Magyar

[Garnfellow]

Here are revised matches of mainworlds and non-mainworlds. The stellar data is given in Dalthor notation: stars inside brackets are in far orbit; an asterisk marks the star the mainworld orbits. Stellar data without notation are simply systems of undetermined configuration at this time.

Hex	Stellar	PBG	Mainworld	Non-Mainworld	Secondary Trade Codes
3012	M0 V* [ M1 V ]	104	Kline (A541987-E)	F622ACE-C	-
2927	K6 V* [ M3 V ]	804	Union (C974AA8-A)	F8B4AED-9	-
2102	G9 V* [ M8 V ]	100	Seloo (A4319BA-E)	F687AA8-B	-
3129	F5 V*	200	Beagle (D766A99-A)	F5509A9-5	-
2602	G2 V [ M6 V* ]	103	Hyalin (D505984-9)	G55696B-5	-
2503	G2 V*	904	Austa (C796ABE-B)	F5879DF-3	-
3128	G7 V* [ M1 V ]	603	Beta (C576ADA-9)	F40097C-7	-
2904	K4 V*	614	Anise (A5419B7-E)	F0009BA-B	-
2616	M0 V*	204	Fornorb (C997A85-A)	FC7A9A9-A	-
2106	G3 V K9 V	204	Tolson (A432ADH-E)	F6679BF-6	-
2628	F7 V*	311	Iatur (C510A9E-B)	F996877-5	-
1701	K3 V M5 V	201	Alphard (B88AAA9-E)	G30087A-7	-
3219	M0 V* [ M4 V ]	133	Vallance (A6B4598-E)	F8A5835-8	-
2008	G2 V M6 V	320	Plage (C432A64-E)	H54489A-5	-
2706	K7 V*	810	Anerin (C5419AB-A)	G411879-8	-
2927	K6 V M3 V	804	Union (C974AA8-A)	F9C9889-9	-
2209	G7 V* [ K9 V ]	834	Brereton (B546620-A)	F58A855-B	-
3129	F5 V*	200	Beagle (D766A99-A)	G8A6854-8	-
2004	M3 V*	121	Esuan (C545967-A)	F430878-6	-
2507	M3 V*	614	Amon (C4359CG-C)	F66586B-7	-
2923	F4 V*	903	Asorret (B403866-B)	F7B87BD-8	-
1801	K1 V M7 V	820	Fase (B541877-A)	H534795-6	-
2811	M2 V*	903	Danko (C777862-8)	F6237A6-7	-
2214	G4 V*	913	Coglan (AA9A8A6-E)	F310757-7	-
3213	M1 V*	924	Rouern (D5568DC-4)	H00078B-9	-
2505	M2 V*	824	Guenivier (AAE78D9-B)	F100731-7	-
2701	M0 V*	422	Pinnock (A8C9876-E)	F966758-8	-
3220	M2 V*	621	Doucette (B6A78DD-9)	F000778-7	-
2208	G0 V G3 V	704	Leriss (E5418B8-6)	F43576A-6	-
2910	M0 V*	604	Waldrin (C6A78C9-9)	G59A766-8	-
2411	M3 V*	705	Alto (A5418AE-C)	F400787-7	-
2808	M1 V* [ M8 V ]	514	Gushwa (B552553-C)	F55775A-4	-
2519	G9 V*	404	Veneet (C541865-8)	FD84734-7	-
2403	M0 V M2 V	602	Nahn (B956867-A)	G204634-7	-
2704	M3 V*	805	Ferstenberg (C00079A-B)	F65869A-6	Fa
2815	M2 V*	423	Slota (C6A5754-A)	F556661-8	Cy Fa
2631	M2 V*	214	Gerwalk (C100941-D)	F200672-8	Mi
3030	F8 V K4 V	703	Pocatlipcat (E430889-8)	H73268C-7	-
2421	M2 V*	424	Court (D5007A8-7)	F554630-8	Fa
2406	M1 V M6 V	713	Hagymasi (C550867-8)	H31269B-7	-
3114	G2 V*	410	Melody (D5578C8-6)	G778640-5	Fa
2412	K3 V M6 V	304	Boshkoff (D636857-8)	F425658-8	-
2901	M0 V M7 V	203	Sweet (C689879-9)	F100699-7	-
2422	G3 V*	904	Argon (C55A755-B)	F552620-4	-
2103	M1 V*	705	Kemper (A4217A8-E)	Y542663-5	Cy
2906	M0 V M0 V	500	Garner's Luck (D54179A-6)	HA56647-6	Fa
2603	G2 V*	804	Milenky (C587754-9)	GB99654-5	-
2728	M0 V M4 V	104	Wicker (A541843-C)	F4346AB-9	-
2007	G3 V*	202	Justice (C541897-8)	YA5A658-A	-
2718	M1 V*	310	Beanland (C8C6789-9)	Y100520-7	-
2607	K8 V*	800	Volund (C541894-8)	H310530-7	-
2903	K0 V*	512	Chartpay (A7558B9-C)	Y100568-8	-
2423	M0 V*	404	Kugle (A522656-E)	YB73544-5	-
3223	M0 V M7 V	913	Zongwu (C433652-B)	H000552-A	-
2413	G5 V K1 V	904	Stevanic (C797687-8)	H8A5597-8	-
3212	G4 V*	203	Sterchi (B697663-A)	Y20057A-7	-
2816	M1 V*	804	Tyrrell (C421663-A)	G88A544-8	-
2304	M1 V*	701	Douglas (D541865-6)	Y610501-8	-
2806	M0 V*	505	Messelnap (C735633-9)	H553579-3	-
2205	M2 V M6 V	421	Rita's Place (C76689A-8)	H200566-8	-
3125	M0 V*	402	Onewen (D3106BF-8)	H543530-5	-
2725	K9 V*	513	Parkhill (C6A8630-9)	Y000578-8	-
3109	F7 V M3 V	101	Stansifer (C000655-C)	Y852597-6	-
2810	M1 V M9 V	305	Stanko (A555649-C)	HC7A524-7	-
2512	M1 V*	433	Sinott (A431742-E)	GC85551-7	Fa
2104	M3 V M1 V	210	Cordle (B54168D-A)	H98A561-6	Cy
2910	M0 V*	604	Waldrin (C6A78C9-9)	Y620578-7	-
2915	K8 V*	214	Norkio (C67578A-8)	FBAA546-8	-
2631	M2 V*	214	Gerwalk (C100941-D)	F000513-7	Mi
2804	M2 V M7 V	800	Paputsus (B679599-C)	YB7A444-6	-
3227	M0 V*	723	Ersgill (B6A7532-C)	Y774468-5	Fa
1904	M2 V M6 V	703	Philpott (D541522-7)	Y312442-9	-
3019	M1 V*	513	Amelbar (C6A4775-9)	G755456-7	Fa
2508	G6 V M4 V	623	Rumley (C79A534-B)	Y9B7445-8	-
2924	G7 V*	503	Leikung (C798555-A)	H77A436-6	-
2905	K9 V*	203	Bilox (B544556-C)	H89A467-7	-
2817	K0 V*	624	Hrongding (B621511-C)	Y854402-7	Fa
3224	K9 V*	103	Untamo (C894587-9)	Y988476-6	Fa
2416	K0 V*	525	Dexter (B587510-B)	Y000433-8	-
2715	K9 V M1 V	602	Byrley (C687538-9)	YDA5525-8	-
3118	G1 V*	602	Skyhaven (B588501-C)	H554469-5	Fa
3231	G8 V*	713	Mogeen (A435575-E)	Y300431-7	-
2704	M3 V*	805	Ferstenberg (C00079A-B)	G200486-8	-
1907	F9 V*	414	Double (A541500-E)	H000431-A	-
2423	M0 V*	404	Kugle (A522656-E)	Y630444-6	-

 

[Garnfellow]

With the mainworld and non-mainworld UWPs in hand, atmosphere data can usually direct which orbits these worlds would likely occupy. Atmospheres of code 456789 should probably fall somewhere in HZ -1 to HZ +1 or +2.

This in turn can indicate T5 climate codes as well as whether the world is tide-locked or not. Since most stars are red giants, this results in a lot of tide-locked and cold tide-locked worlds.

This is fairly straightforward for most single star systems, but becomes a bit more complicated for the 30 binary systems in our dataset, where we also have to determine where the companion stars orbit. In T5, binary stellar systems fall into one of four possible configurations, based on how far out the companion orbits from the primary. Each configuration has roughly equal odds of occurrence.

We had used far companions to circumvent T5’s rule restricting non-mainworlds to mainworld pop -1, so contact, close, and near companions should appear in similar numbers.

However, using detailed stellar design systems like GURPS Space 4e shows that having a close and to a lesser degree a near companion can severely limit the orbits available to place worlds. Most systems with close companions only have 4-6 open orbits.

In T5 the total number of worlds in the system is the mainworld plus planetoid belts (1D-3) plus gas giants (2D/2 -2) plus 2D, for a range of 3 to 20 potential worlds with an average of 10. Good luck placing 20 worlds in a system with a close companion!

In determining star orbits, I prioritized close orbits for systems with low world totals or worlds with no atmospheres; I prioritized contact orbits for systems with many worlds and particularly many gas giants. Near orbits were reserved for systems with median number of worlds. The following table shows the expected distribution of stellar configurations as well the actual distributions I ended up with:

Type	Notation	Odds	Expected	Actual
Contact Companion	P Pc	29%	9	10
Close Companion	P (C)	24%	7	4
Near Companion	P {N}	24%	7	8
Far Companion	P [F]	24%	7	9

Once the companion orbit was determined, I turned to the orbits of the mainworld and non-mainworld. As noted above, in general atmosphere gave a strong indication where these worlds should orbit.

• If the non-mainworld did not have a breathable atmosphere, I used T5 rules straight up for placing orbits: the mainworld used chart 2b on page 408, the non-mainworld used chart P2 on page 413.
• If the non-mainworld had a breathable atmosphere but the mainworld did not, I first determined the non-mainworld orbit as if it were a mainworld using chart 2b (meaning the non-mainworld was most likely to orbit in the HZ), and then determined the mainworld orbit also using chart 2b (meaning it usually fell in HZ -1 or HZ +1)
• If both mainworld and nonmainworld had breathable atmospheres, I also used chart 2b for both to determin orbit, but placed the mainworld first. So the mainworld was more likely to orbit in the HZ and the non-mainworld in HZ-1 or HZ+1.

In addition to assigning orbits, I also used T5's rules to determine whether a mainworld was a planet or a satellite, though I only did this for worlds of size 12345.

Non-mainworlds are not allowed to be satellites under T5's "Other Worlds" rules which seems odd, since one of the most famous secondary worlds in canon is Terra's own Luna. In a couple of instances I made exceptions: I treated Umgaakhi and Farohar as moons of the mainworld, and Nadim and Amboka as moons of a gas giant moon.

The following post provides a more refined list of mainworld and non-mainworld data for Imperial systems in Magyar:

 

[Garnfellow]

Hex	Stellar	Mainworld	Mainworld TCs	Non-Mainworld	Non-Mainworld TCs
3012	M0 V* [ M1 V ]	Kline (A541987-E)	Co Tz	Shugammiir (F622ACE-C)	Tz
2927	K6 V* [ M3 V ]	Union (C974AA8-A)	-	Resolve (F8B4AED-9)	Tz
-	-	-	-	Troth (F9C9889-9)	Ho Tz
2102	G9 V [ M8 V* ]	Seloo (A4319BA-E)	Tz	Pune (F687AA8-B)	-
3129	F5 V*	Beagle (D766A99-A)	-	Inanna (F5509A9-5)	Ho
-	-	-	-	Colma (G8A6854-8)	Co
2602	G2 V [ M6 V* ]	Hyalin (D505984-9)	Fr	Aequus (G55696B-5)	-
2503	G2 V*	Austa (C796ABE-B)	-	Geaamshuu (F5879DF-3)	Ho
3128	G7 V* [ M1 V ]	Beta (C576ADA-9)	-	Episemon (F40097C-7)	-
2904	K4 V*	Anise (A5419B7-E)	Ho Tz	Idu Belt (F0009BA-B)	-
2616	M0 V*	Fornorb (C997A85-A)	Tz	Khiruna (FC7A9A9-A)	Co Tz
2106	G3 V* { K9 V }	Tolson (A432ADH-E)	Co	Nephi (F6679BF-6)	-
2628	F7 V*	Iatur (C510A9E-B)	Co	Attis (F996877-5)	-
1701	K3 V* { M5 V }	Alphard (B88AAA9-E)	-	Nadim (G30087A-7)	Co Sa
3219	M0 V* [ M4 V ]	Vallance (A6B4598-E)	Tz	Unsharlur (F8A5835-8)	Tz
2008	G2 V* M6 V	Plage (C432A64-E)	-	Rote (H54489A-5)	Ho
2706	K7 V*	Anerin (C5419AB-A)	-	Nurmaukiad (G411879-8)	Ho Tz
2209	G7 V* [ K9 V ]	Brereton (B546620-A)	-	Cardon (F58A855-B)	-
2004	M3 V*	Esuan (C545967-A)	Sa	Amboka (F430878-6)	Sa
2507	M3 V*	Amon (C4359CG-C)	Co Tz	Amunet (F66586B-7)	Tz
2923	F4 V*	Asorret (B403866-B)	Co	Gikhiir (F7B87BD-8)	-
1801	K1 V* M7 V	Fase (B541877-A)	-	Secu (H534795-6)	Fr
2811	M2 V*	Danko (C777862-8)	Tz	Lirshurri (F6237A6-7)	Fr
2214	G4 V*	Coglan (AA9A8A6-E)	-	Sueters (F310757-7)	Co
3213	M1 V*	Rouern (D5568DC-4)	Tz	Rouern Belt (H00078B-9)	-
2505	M2 V*	Guenivier (AAE78D9-B)	Tz	Umgaakhi (F100731-7)	Sa
2701	M0 V*	Pinnock (A8C9876-E)	Co Tz	Kagiia (F966758-8)	Tz
3220	M2 V*	Doucette (B6A78DD-9)	Tz	Mumuuar Belt (F000778-7)	-
2208	G0 V* G3 V	Leriss (E5418B8-6)	-	Malan (F43576A-6)	Co
2910	M0 V*	Waldrin (C6A78C9-9)	Fr	Mirdumi (G59A766-8)	Tz
-	-	-	-	Kagamkhir (Y620578-7)	Co Tz
2411	M3 V*	Alto (A5418AE-C)	Tz	Mazan (F400787-7)	-
2808	M1 V* [ M8 V ]	Gushwa (B552553-C)	Lk Sa	Lund (F55775A-4)	Tz
2519	G9 V*	Veneet (C541865-8)	Co	Zessen (FD84734-7)	-
2403	M0 V* { M2 V }	Nahn (B956867-A)	Tz	Farohar (G204634-7)	Sa
2704	M3 V*	Ferstenberg (C00079A-B)	-	Lasaadgur (F65869A-6)	Fa Tz
-	-	-	-	Armaashshi (G200486-8)	-
2815	M2 V*	Slota (C6A5754-A)	Fr	Kolar (F556661-8)	Cy Fa Tz
2631	M2 V*	Gerwalk (C100941-D)	Tz	Pertinax (F200672-8)	Mi
-	-	-	-	Zelus Belt (F000513-7)	Mi
3030	F8 V* ( K4 V )	Pocatlipcat (E430889-8)	-	Klubek (H73268C-7)	-
2421	M2 V*	Court (D5007A8-7)	Co Tz	Sheaf (F554630-8)	Fa Tz
2406	M1 V* ( M6 V )	Hagymasi (C550867-8)	Tz	Eulalia (H31269B-7)	Fr
3114	G2 V*	Melody (D5578C8-6)	Co	Triticum (G778640-5)	Fa
2412	K3 V* { M6 V }	Boshkoff (D636857-8)	-	Aerssens (F425658-8)	Ho Tz
2901	M0 V* { M7 V }	Sweet (C689879-9)	Tz	Uzugiir (F100699-7)	Co
2422	G3 V*	Argon (C55A755-B)	-	Hugo (F552620-4)	Ho
2103	M1 V*	Kemper (A4217A8-E)	Tz	Yoshiko (Y542663-5)	Co Cy Tz
2906	M0 V ( M0 V )	Garner's Luck (D54179A-6)	Tz	Ishmushgi (HA56647-6)	Co Fa Tz
2603	G2 V*	Milenky (C587754-9)	-	Iinshakhim (GB99654-5)	Co
2728	M0 V* M4 V	Wicker (A541843-C)	Fr	Marston (F4346AB-9)	Tz
2007	G3 V*	Justice (C541897-8)	-	Chalice (YA5A658-A)	Co
2718	M1 V*	Beanland (C8C6789-9)	Tz	Samotk (Y100520-7)	-
2607	K8 V*	Volund (C541894-8)	-	Jarmat (H310530-7)	Ho Tz
2903	K0 V*	Chartpay (A7558B9-C)	-	Royale (Y100568-8)	-
2423	M0 V*	Kugle (A522656-E)	Sa	Hund (YB73544-5)	-
-	-	-	-	Treffen (Y630444-6)	Co Tz
3223	M0 V* { M7 V }	Zongwu (C433652-B)	Co Lk Sa	Zongwu Belt (H000552-A)	-
2413	G5 V* K1 V	Stevanic (C797687-8)	-	Rusnak (H8A5597-8)	Ho
3212	G4 V*	Sterchi (B697663-A)	-	Jiinasha (Y20057A-7)	-
2816	M1 V*	Tyrrell (C421663-A)	Fr	Verrouille (G88A544-8)	Tz
2304	M1 V*	Douglas (D541865-6)	Co Tz	Kikarsu (Y610501-8)	Tz
2806	M0 V*	Messelnap (C735633-9)	Co Tz	Marduur (H553579-3)	Tz
2205	M2 V* { M6 V }	Rita's Place (C76689A-8)	Tz	Orson (H200566-8)	Co Tz
3125	M0 V*	Onewen (D3106BF-8)	-	Kresten (H543530-5)	Tz
2725	K9 V*	Parkhill (C6A8630-9)	-	Serapis Belt (Y000578-8)	-
3109	F7 V* ( M3 V )	Stansifer (C000655-C)	-	Kuadar (Y852597-6)	-
2810	M1 V* M9 V	Stanko (A555649-C)	Tz	Unkishi (HC7A524-7)	-
2512	M1 V*	Sinott (A431742-E)	Tz	Dagmar (GC85551-7)	Co Fa Tz
2104	M3 V* M1 V	Cordle (B54168D-A)	Tz	Agramunt (H98A561-6)	Cy Fr
2915	K8 V*	Norkio (C67578A-8)	Tu	Shursiir (FBAA546-8)	-
2804	M2 V* M7 V	Paputsus (B679599-C)	Fr	Eshza (YB7A444-6)	Tz
3227	M0 V*	Ersgill (B6A7532-C)	Co Tz	Sieger (Y774468-5)	Fa Tz
1904	M2 V* M6 V	Philpott (D541522-7)	Fr Sa	Tomoko (Y312442-9)	Co Tz
3019	M1 V*	Amelbar (C6A4775-9)	Fr	Kanumshikaa (G755456-7)	Fa Tz
2508	G6 V* { M4 V }	Rumley (C79A534-B)	-	Deggili (Y9B7445-8)	Fr
2924	G7 V*	Leikung (C798555-A)	-	Dardan (H77A436-6)	Co
2905	K9 V*	Bilox (B544556-C)	Lk Sa	Nikham (H89A467-7)	Co
2817	K0 V*	Hrongding (B621511-C)	Ho	Iduukadan (Y854402-7)	Fa
3224	K9 V*	Untamo (C894587-9)	Tu	Slavik (Y988476-6)	Fa
2416	K0 V*	Dexter (B587510-B)	-	Virtus Belt (Y000433-8)	-
2715	K9 V* { M1 V }	Byrley (C687538-9)	-	Riikhadam (YDA5525-8)	-
3118	G1 V*	Skyhaven (B588501-C)	-	Mimgishkar (H554469-5)	Fa Ho
3231	G8 V*	Mogeen (A435575-E)	-	Klemen (Y300431-7)	-
1907	F9 V*	Double (A541500-E)	-	Souris Belt (H000431-A)	-

 

[Garnfellow]

So we generated a bunch of new UWPs for some non-mainworlds, found homes for them, and this in turn suggested additional details not only for the non-mainworlds but the stellar system and the mainworld itself. It was an interesting and somewhat entertaining exercise, but what’s the point?

Let’s look at the following table, which breaks down the population of Magyar’s Imperial systems:

Type	Worlds	Population (billion)	%
High-Pop Mainworlds	18	405.0	79.5%
High-Pop non-mainworlds	10	84.0	16.5%
Other mainworlds	112	17.6	3.5%
Other non-mainworlds	75	3.1	0.6%
-	-	509.7	-

Based on T5SS data Magyar has 9 Imperial mainworlds with a population code of 10 and 9 with a population code of 9. These 18 high-pop worlds have a total of 405 billion inhabitants, or 79% of the sector’s Imperial population of 509.7 billion.

We’ve surmised that Magyar also has 3 Imperial non-mainworlds with a population code of 10 and 7 Imperial non-mainworlds with a population code of 9. These 10 high pop non-worlds with 84 billion inhabitants represent 16% of Magyar sector’s total Imperial population -- that’s almost 5 times the population of all Magyar Imperial mainworlds with a population of 8 or less (112 worlds, total population 17.59 billion).

This suggests that non-mainworlds can, at least occasionally, be economically and politically important. The megacorps like GSbAG, Hortalez et Cie, and Makhidkarun will certainly be paying attention to the high pop worlds, and from a bottom line perspective it probably makes more sense for megacorps to focus on high pop non-mainworlds rather than low pop mainworlds. Similarly, the Imperium will want to engage and encourage the growth of these worlds.

While I firmly believe in T5’s Map Only As Really Necessary (MOARN) mantra, I hope this exercise has demonstrated that non-mainworlds aren’t necessarily all crappy sparsely populated backwaters; some could have vibrant cultures with history and serious political capital. Some may be well on their way to becoming the system’s mainworld. Or some might once have been the mainworld and are currently in decline.

Non-mainworlds represent a tremendous opportunity for referees using an established setting like the OTU to develop new major worlds and insert them right into familiar maps without upsetting established canon. The TD article states that 69% of all systems in Solomani Rim, one of the most detailed sectors in Traveller, have major non-mainworlds. Almost none have ever been described.

And in general, I think future setting supplements should largely leave the non-mainworlds alone while acknowledging their presence. This would keep the whole of Charted Space as one giant referee’s preserve. An individual system-focused write-up should of course detail the other worlds, but I don’t think it does anyone any good for the T5SS, for example, to churn out complete system details on a sector level. We don’t need Son of Sunbane.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

We don’t need Son of Sunbane.

*** Would you please explain the son of Sunbane comment? ***

Shalom,
M.

 

[Whipsnade]

Sunbane was a misguided attempt to generate stellar and UPP data for all the systems listed in AotI. It completely failed on two levels.

First, Sunbane used a program written to generate the UWP data which did not correctly follow the LBB:6 sysgen procedure. It was a gigantic case of "Garbage In, Garbage Out". Sadly, thanks to inertia more than anything else, that flawed data and it's consequences are still with us.

Second, the very idea of Sunbane itself was flawed. Apart from personal aggrandizement, there was no real need to even attempt to generate the data for AotI. Sunbane was little more than a egotistical land grab for the whole of Charted Space.

Garnfellow's wise suggestion that we not follow the example of Sunbane's bad example has more to do with Sunbane's second flaw rather than the first.

While Garnfellow's methods are not faulty on the sysgen level, Traveller does not need someone using Garnfellow's methods to fill in the missing worlds in every OTU sector. Traveller needs more "elbow room", not more details.

Sadly, that won't stop some well-meaning person from more or less using Garnfellow's methods to generate missing worlds for additional sectors, and dumping the results into the Wiki.

 

[Garnfellow]

Sunbane was a misguided attempt to generate stellar and UPP data for all the systems listed in AotI. It completely failed on two levels.

I more or less agree. And yet Whipsnade, I think you're being incredibly ungenerous about the motives behind Sunbane.

It's an almost irresistible impulse for gamers to fill in empty maps, flesh out disparate pieces of canon, to build on to existing settings. It's a testament to the power of Traveller and the OTU that so many people have been inspired to add to the corpus.

I may occasionally curse Sunbane -- like when I came upon example after example of worlds in Magyar of size 5, atmo 4, and hydro 1 – but I don't think these fan efforts do any real harm.

 

[flykiller]

like when I came upon example after example of worlds in Magyar of size 5, atmo 4, and hydro 1

I've found it helpful when generating random data to line it all up in a courier font text file and see if any repetitious data makes itself apparent visually. failing that then frequency analysis is helpful too.

it's not that amateur data generation causes harm. it's that everyone sees the data in a non-apparent format and goes "ooo aaa" and publishes it and starts using it, then when problems are noticed it's a bit late to do anything about it.

large data sets are more problematic. for example I'm trying to draw up a stat map of gudak's neighborhood and I'm finding various issues. so far half of the systems have 4 gas giants, the other half have something else (this may be a sample size issue). four system have pop 1-4 with class A/B ports and tech 12-14. and the "lancian cultural region" seems to have been drawn willy-nilly in complete disregard of j1 mains (for the one near gudak the base of the main is in the region, 4 subsequent systems are outside of it, and the last planet on the tail end of the main is in it). I'm sure the sector was vetted in some manner by one guy, but vetting large data sets correctly with one guy is very difficult.

 

[Whipsnade]

And yet Whipsnade, I think you're being incredibly ungenerous about the motives behind Sunbane.

Ungenerous? More like realistic. The real motives behind Sunbane were entirely selfish.

It's an almost irresistible impulse for gamers to fill in empty maps, flesh out disparate pieces of canon, to build on to existing settings.

We all do that and we do it for ourselves. What we all do not do is attempt to impose our personal work on the setting as a whole.

Sunbane was the largest possible landgrab, a colossal exercise in egotism, and a breathtaking example of incompetence. The incompetence exhibited by the failure of those involved to correctly employ LBB:6 sysgen was only matched by the arrogant presumption that they and they alone should generate UWPs for the entirety of AtoI.

The affair would be laughable if it hadn't left a poisoned legacy we're still dealing with today.

It's a testament to the power of Traveller and the OTU that so many people have been inspired to add to the corpus.

There's inspiration and then there's an attempt at bragging rights.

I may occasionally curse Sunbane -- like when I came upon example after example of worlds in Magyar of size 5, atmo 4, and hydro 1 – but I don't think these fan efforts do any real harm.

No real harm? How much effort has been expended in the T5SS project and where do you think those faulty UWPs came from?

Sunbane is fanon cancer with effects that have lasted decades and the current Wiki is slowly metastasizing into the same.

 

[aramis]

Many of us WANTED the GEnie archive - Sunbane was the backup, BTW... where it moved when GEnie was becoming less relevant due to actual open access to the internet.... Many of the sectors were from DGP.
(A sector mentioned without specifics includes Library Data, full world listings, and at least a map showing locations and routes.)
TD #9 & #10 was Capitol
TD #11 was Massilia
TD #12 was Old Expanses
TD #14 was Magyar
TD #15 was Daibei LibData and subsector N
TD #16 was Lib Data and Subsector N of Reaver's Deep
TD #17 was Lib Data and Subsector KilRai' of Dark Nebula
TD #18 was Corridor and Ealiyasiyw sectors
TD #19 was Deneb and Riftspan Reaches
TD #20 was Reft and Trojan Reaches

Earlier issues included other locations as well.

these were the basis for much of the GEnie data, and it's later inclusion in the Sunbane archive.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Thanks for the kind words! It turned out to be a fun little project. Here are few more fleshed out systems:

The Beagle system (Magyar 3129) is centered on the star Sixceti, an F5 V primary located in the Beagle Cluster in New Mars subsector and is notable for its role in the historical development of Magyar sector...

Garnfellow,

We have been fleshing out the Systems on the trav Map and at the wiki:

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Walpurgian_Main

Please contact me sometime at your convenience.

Thank you.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.