The Most Serious T5 Problems

[Supplement Four]

T5 has its problems, no doubt. I'd like to reserve this thread for only the most serious problems in the game. The idea is to identify which problems make T5 unplayable and which rules are highly disliked then get them out here in the open, all-together, so that Marc & Co. can fix 'em.

I don't know if he will fix 'em, but at least this thread will be here to identify the game's major offenders.



EDIT: If you've found some game-breaking aspects of T5, and you'd like to see the topic address, the please post them here. This thread is meant to improve T5, not dog it.

I was also hoping to keep the thread clean and readable--with discussion maybe in another thread. But, that's already been tossed out the window. So, talk away, I guess.

 

[Supplement Four]

1D Damage and the NPC Damage Rule



Old Dr. Skull just posted a whammy, and what he found definitely deserves to be in this thread:

If Pistoleer Frank, with his revolver, shoots at NPC Joe, who has no armor.

He could fire all day at the guy and never put him down.

The revolver does bullet-1.

So the most it could do is 1d6 damage or 6 points.

But, the NPC rule says if you inflict less than 10 points, ignore it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Brawling and Blade Combat in T5


As far as I'm concerned, this subsystem makes the game unplayable.

We are given three choices in T5 to resolve Brawling or Blade combat.

Choice 1: Page 158. Brawling is presented as an Opposed Throw for up to 4 combatants. One task is used for the entire fight. The winner of the toss is not damaged, but all others receive 2D damage.

One throw? For the entire combat? What fun is that?

What if chair legs, broken bottles, or clubs are used?

Why'd the fight stop, especially if opponents were not downed?

Problems, problems.



Choice 2: Page 158. Brawling is as above, except the Opposed Throw can be used for up to six combatants, and the throw is made each round. The highest roll receives 3D hits.

Can't more than six combatants be in a fight?

Can't there be a round of Brawling combat where everybody is hurt?

Doesn't a Vargr get some bonus for his claws? An Aslan for his dewclaw (if the dishonored piece of crap uses it)?

Problems, problems.



Choice 3: Page 218. The Fighting Task from the combat chapter could be used for either Brawling or Blade combat. The problem is that the Fighting Task is geared towards ranged combat (through the target speed and size modifiers), and that, in most situations, since difficulty is based on target range, hitting a foe is automatic.



None of the choices make for a fulfilling and fun Brawling or Blade combat experience.

We need a good system to handle these situations.

 

[Supplement Four]

No Multi-Target in Personal Combat?



Space Badger noticed that we're using abstract, one minute combat rounds, but only one target is allowed per round....and we're using guns.

One minute of combat, or there abouts.

Can't fire at more than one target.

 

[Supplement Four]

No Ammo Tracking??


I understand the impetus to shy away from bookkeeping (track magazines instead of bullets!), but, with no ammo tracking, why use single fire or burst fire....ever?

Ammo is usually limited by the load it puts on the character (character's STR), availability of ammo, and the price of ammo. If you take away ammo tracking, the character will always use his most favorable attack type.

Why would you ever use SnapFire (page 212) when your weapon can just as easily do AutoFire--and the character never has to worry about ammo useage? AutoFire is both easier and does more damage than SnapFire.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Brawling and Blade Combat in T5


As far as I'm concerned, this subsystem makes the game unplayable.

We are given three choices in T5 to resolve Brawling or Blade combat.

Choice 1: Page 158. Brawling is presented as an Opposed Throw for up to 4 combatants. One task is used for the entire fight. The winner of the toss is not damaged, but all others receive 2D damage.

One throw? For the entire combat? What fun is that?

What if chair legs, broken bottles, or clubs are used?

Why'd the fight stop, especially if opponents were not downed?

Problems, problems.



Choice 2: Page 158. Brawling is as above, except the Opposed Throw can be used for up to six combatants, and the throw is made each round. The highest roll receives 3D hits.

Can't more than six combatants be in a fight?

Can't there be a round of Brawling combat where everybody is hurt?

Doesn't a Vargr get some bonus for his claws? An Aslan for his dewclaw (if the dishonored piece of crap uses it)?

Problems, problems.



Choice 3: Page 218. The Fighting Task from the combat chapter could be used for either Brawling or Blade combat. The problem is that the Fighting Task is geared towards ranged combat (through the target speed and size modifiers), and that, in most situations, since difficulty is based on target range, hitting a foe is automatic.



None of the choices make for a fulfilling and fun Brawling or Blade combat experience.

We need a good system to handle these situations.

Before everyone goes bagging T5 for this, you may wish to consider that on page 158, this is a gaming rule if you have the skill 'FIGHTER', it is not for all situations and combat outcomes. It is only a special ability/skill if your character has that skill. Frankly it looks like someone is skim reading and declaring that's the T5 rules for combat. You are incorrect, try reading the entire book first before bagging out rules that randomly don't sound right to you.

 

[Supplement Four]

Cannot Move and Fire in the Same Combat Round?



According to page 214, Aimed Fire is only possible when a character is not moving.

According to that same page, SnapFire and AutoFire are only possible if the weapon is capable of burst or full auto fire.

Therefore, if you use a pistol or rifle that is only capable of one shot at a time, the only attack type open to you is Aimed Fire. And, this means that you cannot move and fire your weapon in the same one minute combat round.

 

[Supplement Four]

Before everyone goes bagging T5 for this, you may wish to consider that on page 158, this is a gaming rule if you have the skill 'FIGHTER', it is not for all situations and combat outcomes. It is only a special ability/skill if your character has that skill. Frankly it looks like someone is skim reading and declaring that's the T5 rules for combat. You are incorrect, try reading the entire book first before bagging out rules that randomly don't sound right to you.

1. The same rule is given on page 135.

2. The Fighting Task in the Personal Combat section is geared towards ranged combat, obviously, in that difficulty is created by target range, and perceived target size and target speed modify the throw.

3. If you used the Fighting Task anyway for Brawling or Blade combat, then, in most circumstances, the difficulty will be 1D and an automatic hit.

4. Even if you are correct about what you say above, if you read the Fighting skill, you will see that it is a Default skill. The skill specifically states: "Essentially all characters have Fighting-0." So...your point, "It is only a special ability/skill if your character has that skill." is really moot, huh?

5. If you've found some other rules for Brawling or Blade combat in the game that I missed, then please list the page number.

6. I haven't read the entire book, and there are entire sections that I haven't read. But, I have read the combat chapter closely. If you had followed any of my previous posts, you would have known that. I've commented quite a bit on the pros and cons of T5.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

No Multi-Target in Personal Combat?



Space Badger noticed that we're using abstract, one minute combat rounds, but only one target is allowed per round....and we're using guns.

One minute of combat, or there abouts.

Can't fire at more than one target.

Again, this is assumption conjecture. Read page 211, it states:
TIME SCALE:
Combat takes place in Rounds. Some seem like seconds; some seem like hours. Some pass without anything happening; others are flurries of activity. Various activities are specified in terms of rounds; movement, reloading, weapons use. At the end of combat, count the number of Rounds that have passed and equate them generally(notice that word generally) to minutes... etc.

So you see, that is only an example, no where is it stating specifically that one round = one minute. One round could be 1 second or even less. It depends on the situation. You as the referee will need to decide how long a round is for that particular situation. EG. Obviously if a player is in a standoff with a cheesed off K'Kree and there both behind boulders and taking shots at one another from time to time and yelling profanities at one another, then obviously a round may be 10 minutes or longer. If on the other hand there in a wrestling contest, well a round could be as little as half a second. It all depends on the situation.

A point I feel needs to be made abundantly clear in this thread is this: There is no rule book under the sun, which is going to give you the ultimate rules for every situation the human mind can imagine. It simply isn't possible. This is a RPG, a special type of game where anything can happen. Further more it is not D&D where practically any role can be defined in a table and it's simplistic. Traveller is an advanced RPG and it will require the referee to adapt to the situation. This means that if your lazy, then Traveller is not the game for you. It requires work, in fact more than say, most fantasy games for example because your dealing with a world that's not set in stone like dragons, knights and swords for example. In Traveller, there's countless worlds, hence why so many additions have been provided. In short, there is work in order to have a successful game(true of just about every game really). If you expect the rule book to give you everything on a plate and do nothing then you will be sorely disappointed as will your players.

Personally I believe T5 is the ultimate rules set I've ever seen published for the Traveller RPG. It seems some people expect everything handed to them on a plate and sadly that's simply not with the flow of life. Life brings chaos and situations. Traveller in my mind is designed to be a fun filled game where you get to live life in a world I'd love to be in, full of travel across the vastness of space and technology beyond your wildest dreams. A future where there's still problems as there always will be, but humanity is there. We made it, were starfaring people.

 

[Supplement Four]

The STAMP Combat Round


S - Situation: Attacker notes his weapon and evaluates the combat situation.

T - Target: Attacker identifies a target and notes range, size and target mod.

A - Attack: Attacker rolls to hit.

M - Move: Attacker moves or performs some other action.

P - Penetrate: Hits from successful attacks are checked for penetration and damage.



All combatants complete each phase before moving on to the next. So, both PCs and NPCs roll attacks in the Attack phase. Then all PCs and NPCs in the combat are allowed to move. Then, we go back to the targets from the Attack phase and roll penetration/damage on them.

It is quite ungainly to try to remember who hit who during the combat.

This system allows a character to be hit, then move behind complete cover, then drop dead from a wound. That's awkward.

Penetration/Damage should occur right after a successful attack is made.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Cannot Move and Fire in the Same Combat Round?



According to page 214, Aimed Fire is only possible when a character is not moving.

According to that same page, SnapFire and AutoFire are only possible if the weapon is capable of burst or full auto fire.

Therefore, if you use a pistol or rifle that is only capable of one shot at a time, the only attack type open to you is Aimed Fire. And, this means that you cannot move and fire your weapon in the same one minute combat round.

For a human character I'd argue that's fair enough. Have you ever tried shooting a gun or a bow and arrow while walking or running? Good luck to you. For other races, this may be very different but this book in my mind is the core 'human' rules set. I'm sure interesting alien modules or combined books will follow.

An upside to this, may be the Mongoose(or even create T5 versions, eg thing maker etc) supplement on Cybernetics. With a cybernetic gyroscopic module installed in prosthetic arm, advantages would be possible.

No, you also have the option of firing while moving but your chances of hitting the target are less. I don't have a problem with that ruling at all.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

No Ammo Tracking??


I understand the impetus to shy away from bookkeeping (track magazines instead of bullets!), but, with no ammo tracking, why use single fire or burst fire....ever?

Ammo is usually limited by the load it puts on the character (character's STR), availability of ammo, and the price of ammo. If you take away ammo tracking, the character will always use his most favorable attack type.

Why would you ever use SnapFire (page 212) when your weapon can just as easily do AutoFire--and the character never has to worry about ammo useage? AutoFire is both easier and does more damage than SnapFire.

I would have thought this was simple. A single fire gun will have x rounds then that's it if there's no more magazines. A multi shot fire, like a sub machine gun, or type of gattling gun, will have multi-shots. The point is you could simply declare the number of rounds before either goes empty. EG. 6 rounds for example with one shot a round for the pistol(keeping your rounds to the time scale that suits the situation), 5 - 10 shots for the automatic weapon, again what ever fits your time scale. At the end of the day, again, this is referee dependent.

 

[Supplement Four]

Again, this is assumption conjecture. Read page 211, it states:
TIME SCALE:
Combat takes place in Rounds. Some seem like seconds; some seem like hours.

Page 216: under Combat Round = about 1 Minute.

It says, "On average, however, a Combat Round is abou a minute."




And, before you start telling me that I've mis-read the part about one target per round, look at page 216 at the Attack phase. It says, "Attack is against a single target. But, Suppression engages multiple targets."

A point I feel needs to be made abundantly clear in this thread is this: There is no rule book under the sun, which is going to give you the ultimate rules for every situation the human mind can imagine. It simply isn't possible.

But, if you have any experience with other rpgs at all, it's clearly evident that the vast majority of them have better thought out and presented combat systems that what is presented in T5.

Personally I believe T5 is the ultimate rules set I've ever seen published for the Traveller RPG.

Wow!!!!

There are moments of brillance in T5, but as a whole, it's really a mess.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

1. The same rule is given on page 135.

2. The Fighting Task in the Personal Combat section is geared towards ranged combat, obviously, in that difficulty is created by target range, and perceived target size and target speed modify the throw.

3. If you used the Fighting Task anyway for Brawling or Blade combat, then, in most circumstances, the difficulty will be 1D and an automatic hit.

4. Even if you are correct about what you say above, if you read the Fighting skill, you will see that it is a Default skill. The skill specifically states: "Essentially all characters have Fighting-0." So...your point, "It is only a special ability/skill if your character has that skill." is really moot, huh?

5. If you've found some other rules for Brawling or Blade combat in the game that I missed, then please list the page number.

6. I haven't read the entire book, and there are entire sections that I haven't read. But, I have read the combat chapter closely. If you had followed any of my previous posts, you would have known that. I've commented quite a bit on the pros and cons of T5.

Again, here that is given as an example. In fact there are 2. No where does it state that you MUST do that. You may wish to handle it as an uncertain task or cooperative task etc.

Also if anyone else is looking through this section, take a look at pages 133 and 143 which even give examples of Duration and time taken if your not sure about how long something will take. There's: Ignoring Duration, Absolute Duration, Variable Duration, Randomized Duration, Hasty Tasks, Extra Hasty, Cautious and even combinations of these. What more description do you want for game time(eg could be handy to work out your 'rounds').

 

[pendragonman]

What is needed to clarify how the whole combat thing works is an actual worked example. We had something like that in beta and that made it clear how it works, including STAMP and why single targeting.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Page 216: under Combat Round = about 1 Minute.

It says, "On average, however, a Combat Round is abou a minute."




And, before you start telling me that I've mis-read the part about one target per round, look at page 216 at the Attack phase. It says, "Attack is against a single target. But, Suppression engages multiple targets."



But, if you have any experience with other rpgs at all, it's clearly evident that the vast majority of them have better thought out and presented combat systems that what is presented in T5.





Wow!!!!

There are moments of brillance in T5, but as a whole, it's really a mess.

To which RPG games are you referring are better laid out? More to your standard?

Does the fact that T5 has a most unusual layout, make it a mess? Personally I think it encourages the reader to delve into it and book mark pages of relevance to a particular adventure etc.

Your version of perfection is not the same for everyone. Obviously the designers of the game found it worked for them.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Page 216: under Combat Round = about 1 Minute.

It says, "On average, however, a Combat Round is abou a minute."




And, before you start telling me that I've mis-read the part about one target per round, look at page 216 at the Attack phase. It says, "Attack is against a single target. But, Suppression engages multiple targets."






But, if you have any experience with other rpgs at all, it's clearly evident that the vast majority of them have better thought out and presented combat systems that what is presented in T5.





Wow!!!!

There are moments of brillance in T5, but as a whole, it's really a mess.

See that word 'about', you'll have to insert whatever time fits into that 'about'. I'm sure some games define it exactly but then, they wouldn't be as maleable. In my mind that time would be if I was in a vac suit, in space. Movement is harder and simple tasks take longer. Again, it's dependent upon what the referee declares. No one fixed time scale is going to handle every situation, hence why T5 leaves it open and provides just examples.

 

[Supplement Four]

@Spaceresearcher

Dude, you are really clogging up what I had hoped (and stated in the OP) would be a clean, easy thread for Marc and the T5-powers-that-be to read.

I don't have any problem discussing the thread items with you. I just wish you had started your discussion in another thread in order to keep this one clean.

Oh well. The plans of mice and men, huh?

For a human character I'd argue that's fair enough. Have you ever tried shooting a gun or a bow and arrow while walking or running? Good luck to you.

So....you don't have a problem with someone going full auto and still moving in the round, but you're OK with someone not being able to pop off a single shot and move in the round....

Hmmm....

No, you also have the option of firing while moving but your chances of hitting the target are less. I don't have a problem with that ruling at all.

You cannot move and fire in the same round unless your weapon is capable of burst fire or is fully automatic. See page 214.

I would have thought this was simple. A single fire gun will have x rounds then that's it if there's no more magazines.

Hmm. OK. Let's look at some GunMaker outputs provided on page 240.

Can you tell me how much ammo the P-5 (top line) has?

How many rounds can the weapon be used if the character only has one magazine?

Is it six rounds? 17 rounds?



Or...how about the Re-4 (second weapon on page 240). Since it's a revolver, is that a 6 round weapon?

Or, it is like the Revolver-8 pictured on page 236 that uses a cylinder that holds 36 rounds?

A multi shot fire, like a sub machine gun, or type of gattling gun, will have multi-shots. The point is you could simply declare the number of rounds before either goes empty. EG. 6 rounds for example with one shot a round for the pistol(keeping your rounds to the time scale that suits the situation), 5 - 10 shots for the automatic weapon, again what ever fits your time scale. At the end of the day, again, this is referee dependent.

In other words, it needs House Ruling because T5 ignores this aspect that should be in the game.



Here's another question for you. If a PC uses the ACR-10, from page 240 again, then why would he ever use SnapFire?

Won't he always use AutoFire?

 

[Supplement Four]

Again, here that is given as an example. In fact there are 2. No where does it state that you MUST do that. You may wish to handle it as an uncertain task or cooperative task etc.

OK, question for you then.

Two humans walk out of the Starport bar. Neither is armed. Both hate each other. A fist fight erupts.

How are you, as Ref, going to resolve this situation? (By the T5 Rules, please.)

To which RPG games are you referring are better laid out? More to your standard?

I think that every RPG I've ever seen has a better combat system than what is presented in T5.

I'm sure there's got to be some dogs out there that have something worse in the offerings, but T5's personal combat system is among them.

Classic Traveller. The James Bond RPG. Top Secret/S.I. D6 Star Wars (any edition). The Conan RPG. FASA Star Trek (either edition). All of these have better combat systems than what is presented in T5.

 

[pendragonman]

S4, as to your fist fight, I have already done this while kicking the tires.

Opposed roll method. Yes the loser takes damage and the winner doesn't. Not an issue for me, as I understand the idea behind it. Abstraction, so that 3 hours of prime rp time aren't tied up with a single combat. Not all combats take three hours, but you must be well aware of how much gametime gets eaten up in one.

See, I saw what the combat example was in beta. In it, the idea behind the abstractions in personal combat were elaborated so that we could get into Marc's thinking.

As I have mentioned previously in one of your other threads, a "combat round" per Marc's idea is not a fixed length of time, but an "episode" or "act" if you will. Both sides make their moves, do their attacks, and damage is resolved. I return you to my previously remarked example of the "Band of Brothers" episode where they assault the town on Foy. Combat round #1 is everything from that episode from the start until Lt Dike is relieved. This is certainly longer than one minute, but based on the example given out in beta this is Marc's combat idea. Combat round #2 is From Speirs takes over until the assault is complete except for the linkup with the other company. Again, certainly more than one minute. The 3rd combat round is Speirs running thru the remaining German resistance to make the linkup with the other company and running back. This one is about one minute.

From the example we saw in the beta test, this is how Marc wants it. Personal combat isn't supposed to be a round by round boxing match, but an abstract resolution so that combat stays a plot element instead of the central focus of the adventure.

If this example from beta could be located and linked for everyone you might get a better idea.

EDIT: I seem to be too simple minded for the forum search device. I can't seem to get it to datamine the T5 prerelease archive to even find the word combat. Somebody with better forum search-fu will need to try.