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The New Ziru Sirkaa PE...ideas

Liam Devlin

SOC-14 5K
The New ZS Polity, as described in MJD's Outline given in the previous posted "Whats New in TNE?" comes to blows with the Regency expansion, and makes a grab for the throne-stirring up the beehive of the Black Imperium (ala the Black Curtain of Core-Fornast, parts of Ley & Lishun sectors).
Dusting off our thinking caps, lets review shall we what we believe to be true of the previous NZS, the one that decided not to pay its megacorp royalties to Lucan after a certain heretical IRIS agency disavowed Lucan's Imperium/ his claim to the throne in 1122.
The NZS formally broke off with the rest of the Imperium, and began economically mending its fences with the coreward Vargr states.
What else do we know?
That the Vilani Navy & Domain of Deneb Navy fell to blows over the relief effort of Corridor Sector's Depot.. and joint operations towards opening Corridor pretty much ended after that.
That the Vilani 1st Imperium was founded on the three megacorps of Naasirka, Makhidakharun, (and I just forgot the third!Grr) as a trade bound empire at TL-10, later at TL-11 with J-2 technology.
Astrographically the Vilani world of Vland sits amongst the largets J-1 mains in the known space of the former 3rdI/2ndI/1stI.
As I don't have V & V, others with knowledgeof the NZS or have ideas what this Virus surrounded PE might look like feel free to post on in.
 
1. The third megacorp was Sharurshid. Also, in 1120, after the Vilani declared the NZS, a fourth megacorp, Zirunkariish, applied for and was granted bureau status by the Shadow Emperor.

2. The NZSjr would be rooted in the Vilani traditions of reliance on proven solutions, group goals rather than individual achievement, mistrust of technology (quite possibly reinforced by our silicon demons), and unwillingness to innovate. This means a return of technology patents, a government willing to expand only when risks are deemed acceptable, and a lack of individual initiative in Vilani leaders.

3. Given the astrographic position of the NZSjr, the virus threat would be somewhat less than in the Old Expanses. The Vampire Highway runs from Capital to Cymbeline, in both directions, which means it ends well away from Vland. Much less of a threat to the NZSjr than to the RC.

4. Many Vilani leaders saw the 3rd Imperium as a continuation of the Rule of Man. The feelings of superiority so disparagingly attributed to the Solomani are just as present in the Vilani, but are not expressed as loudly. The recreation of the original ZS is seen by many as the goal for the Vilani race.

5. These same Vilani would much rather see a new Vilani Empire rather than a reestablishment of the 3I. Hence the conflict with the Regency.

6. One of the stipulations made when Vland joined the 3I was that the new Imperium would not impose Sylean culture on the Vilani. A majority of the worlds in the Vland Main remained socially and culturally Vilani, unlike areas such as the SM, which were actually more cosmopolitan despite being frontier bumpkins.

7. Conclusions? Hell, I don't know. I'm still digesting the stuff MJD put out. By the way, I think there are still copies of V&V out there somewhere. I got mine at a used book store a couple years ago.
 
Originally posted by Steve Perlot:
1. The third megacorp was Sharurshid. Also, in 1120, after the Vilani declared the NZS, a fourth megacorp, Zirunkariish, applied for and was granted bureau status by the Shadow Emperor.
IIRC, it was the Sharurshid that horribly mismanage the relations with a bunch of uppity monkey boy, from an insignficant blue-green planet, orbiting a dull yellow star, on the rimward edge of the great and mighty Vilani Empire. ;)


Originally posted by Steve Perlot:
2. The NZSjr would be rooted in the Vilani traditions of reliance on proven solutions, group goals rather than individual achievement, mistrust of technology (quite possibly reinforced by our silicon demons), and unwillingness to innovate. This means a return of technology patents, a government willing to expand only when risks are deemed acceptable, and a lack of individual initiative in Vilani leaders.
The only inovations made will be protection and survival from Virii, raiders, and other PEs. The reinforcement of the old Vilani traditions (patents, caste, committee think, etc) will be the flavor of the day.

I kind of disagree with the individual initiative of leaders. For the most part they return to the group think decision making model, but experience of the Rebellion and Collapse will show the occasional leaders taking charge can mean the difference between life and death for a settlement. Of course any decisions will reviewed by peers and superiors.

Originally posted by Steve Perlot:
3. Given the astrographic position of the NZSjr, the virus threat would be somewhat less than in the Old Expanses. The Vampire Highway runs from Capital to Cymbeline, in both directions, which means it ends well away from Vland. Much less of a threat to the NZSjr than to the RC.
Based on the stories of Vampire sortees (Rape of Trin a good example) against the Regency, I would think alot raids against the NZSjr would happen. Even if Vilani worlds are not the targets, they still have to pass thru the territory; thus, some confrontations will happen.
 
Steve perlot: Good thoughts!
Sharushid! darn..brain cells at work place not as good as those at the house!

And thoughts of who to blame fer the 1st Imperium's fall to Sol, are not part of this effort, GAB. We're looking to see how the NZS becomes the NZSjr as you put it.

And yes, the Vamp sorties will be a factor on her size. I see them bypassing them though, pretty much,after a while. VLAND has a remnant fleet, like Solee (Its a Hi pop world),, no major pop loss.

Its integral strenght is not her warships but her cultural heritage in this stronghjold of the race. Once contact is made/ renewed,the culture renews. And as Vilani live to 150+ or so, many will be alive by 1200 who saw the Fall.
Even if reduced from TL-15 to TL-12 (the minimum TNE-collapse of 3die 6 for such a planet, her size and atmosphere prevent a die off and loss of all knowledge. The Bilandin Repository of Knowledge resides here.

And as many stuffy old fogey way of doin stuff jokes as we like, the Vilani have natural advantages vs Virus. They conquered the stars with less than TL-15. They could do it again. They have patience, and resiliency.
The Vilani Impersonal Bureacratic government might not be quick enought to respond as say, a govt by a dictator, or a democracy, but they make decisons that last and last, and that the people can trust were not "hasty" (I see a lot of ST-Vulcanisms in Vilani thought processes.-another heresy?!).
And getting whole worlds on the same sheet of music is the name of the game if it cmes down to will we let this Sylean Virus stop us? NO! We are Vilani, we can beat it!
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Steve perlot: Good thoughts!
Sharushid! darn..brain cells at work place not as good as those at the house!

And thoughts of who to blame fer the 1st Imperium's fall to Sol, are not part of this effort, GAB. We're looking to see how the NZS becomes the NZSjr as you put it!
But part of the discussion does include the Vilani resentment of the Sololmani influence on Capital and the 3rd Imperium. I'm pointing out the root cause of the resentment and which part of the empire is to blame.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Even if reduced from TL-15 to TL-12 (the minimum TNE-collapse of 3die 6 for such a planet, her size and atmosphere prevent a die off and loss of all knowledge. The Bilandin Repository of Knowledge resides here.

And as many stuffy old fogey way of doin stuff jokes as we like, the Vilani have natural advantages vs Virus. They conquered the stars with less than TL-15. They could do it again. They have patience, and resiliency.
Thoughts of long gone glory will certainly ignite strong vilani nationalism.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
And getting whole worlds on the same sheet of music is the name of the game if it cmes down to will we let this Sylean Virus stop us? NO! We are Vilani, we can beat it!
Considering the area had a very strong Vilani it shouldn't be hard. The only holdouts would be leaders and world that rightly argue that the NZS could do nothing about the Collapse and Virus, or the lack of individual leadership initiative only help worsen the damage.
 
Your first point, noted in the pursuit of knowledge. But the Vilani will not resort to blame game-retaking the stars AGAIN, will be the order of the day.

Your second point: Harnessed properly, you're dead on it GAB! Retake the lost glory, retake the stars...I can see it.

Your third point: Those that oppose the will of the NZSjr, will also be aware of how relcaitrants were dealt with by the 1st one. Therefore-limits on ships, shipbuilding, etc will be the limits of their advances, against the inexorable Vampire threat...But...

If VLAND discovers alternate computer structures in the older versions so lovingly preserved, they stand a chance to prevent infection reoccurring. Attrition is a two way street. eventually local vampire fleets will wane, and the Vilani gain the upper hand. Not many A-class ports in Virus hands
last time I checked (the Black Imperium/ curtain, another story)-still, the puppeteers don't launch till 1160's, and primarily rimwards towards the heretical cymbelline AI's.. past the RC into the Rim sector.

Contain the infection/ beat the vampires at the seizure rate to ship's built/ manned, and VLAND wins.
 
This is really getting interesting. In the traditional (DN/GDW) view, the devastation of the Collapse causes a lot of soul searching among the survivors and a determination to find "new" ways of living to avoid the pitfalls and failures of the past. But given the pragmatism, conservatism, and longevity (assuming V&V) of the Vilani, this sort of reaction from them seems highly unlikely. For the RC and Regency (and all of the other "official" PEs), Virus was traumatic enough to bring about fundamental changes in the shape of society, but for the Vilani NOTHING (save foreign occupation) is that traumatic -- they'll ALWAYS fall back on the same tried-and-true methods that have kept them among the stars for 10,000+ years. To the Vilani, Virus isn't a paradigm-smashing cataclysm, but just another (somewhat bigger than normal ;) ) obstacle, to be bypassed or overcome like any other. And, as has been pointed out, the Vilani who are reemerging in the 1200s won't be a new generation bred on hope and superstition and stories told around the campfire by their grandfathers of how things used to be, but will rather by-and-large be the SAME PEOPLE who fought the Rebellion and weathered the Collapse -- effectively an entire Cultural Region of Remnants! :eek:

Yeah, their exposed geography means the Vilani will have taken a significant walloping, and a drop back to TL10 or 11 (NB: the TL of the original ZS) seems likely, but when the smoke begins to clear c. the 1180s-90s and Vland reaches back out towards her neighbors she will find not the howling wilderness of TEDs, pre-industrials, and cemetary worlds that the RC found but, rather, the same folks they left behind 50 years ago, still carrying out the company's business*, ready to fall back into line and continue their work. By the 1200s-10s the Vilani could easily have unified the original Vilani Cultural Region into a sizeable PE which, while technologically lagging, would have a significant organizational advantage over their rivals -- quite possibly enough to allow them to defeat some overextended and overconfident adventurers from the Regency, thus boosting their confidence and cultural pride, igniting visions of a "true" restored Ziru Sirka (encompassing more than just Vland sector), and inspiring a thoroughly ill-advised expedition to Capital...
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Just because none of us had thought of it before doesn't make it "wrong" -- and I applaud Martin for "thinking outside the box" and capitalizing on something all of us, with our RC- and/or Regency-centric views, had managed to overlook.

*the Vilani are used to carrying on for years at a time without direct supervision. It's a centrally defining characteristic of their precedent-and-tradition-based approach, and the primary way they were able to successfully manage an empire of 15,000 worlds with only J-1 and J-2.
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Your first point, noted in the pursuit of knowledge. But the Vilani will not resort to blame game-retaking the stars AGAIN, will be the order of the day.
Yes, but I can see someone using it against them. Pointing out the Sharurshid did not work for best interest of the whole (The Ziru Sirka)

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Your third point: Those that oopose the will of the NZSjr, will also be aware of how relcaitrants were dealt with by the 1st one. Therefore-limits on ships, shipbuilding, etc will be the limits of their advances, against the inexorable Vampire threat...But...
I don't think the NSZjr will go full speed with the old tactics. They can reason that the situation is different and require some moderation when dealing with certain systems. A "progressive" Vilani leader (The ultimate triple oxymoron) or contact committee could settle with client state status, knowing that time and red tape will adventually bring CSs into the fold. This was a common tactic during the early expansion of the 3rd Imperium and, IIRC, the 1st Imperium.

To use RL concept: "Campaign from the center. Legislate from your side."

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
If VLAND discovers alternate computer structures in the older versions so lovingly preserved, they stand a chance to prevent infection occurring. Attrition is a two way street. eventually local vampire fleets will wane, and the Vilani gain the upper hand. Not many A-class ports in Virus hands
last time I checked (the Black Imperium/ curtain, another story)-still, the puppeteers don't launch till 1160's, and primarily rimwards towards the heretical cymbelline AI's.. past the RC into the Rim sector.
So they revert to using Apple IIs and 8088PCs for ship computer. Would that mean personal computers would be T/S 1000s with the thermal paper printer? ;)
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This monopoly can really establish the IT caste as the prominate group in the NSZjr.

I wonder if joining the 4I will require them in accepting SOTA hardware? Otherwise it can hamper communication and defense advances.
 
Mr T. Foster you are all over that like white on Rice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is precisely MJD's thinking of the vilani (age wise, as in V& V)-or so he intimated on the tne-list recently to the naysayers there. Outstanding!(stands up, heretic cheers, applause card goes up, waves to audience..)

The Vilani recontacted will more than likely have been (maybe dull,plodding etc) carrying on the same way as before. Virus is an obstacle, not the cataclysm. A PE of imperial Vilani remnants...YUS!
Excellent!
 
Hey Liam noticed I didn't comment on this bit:

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Dusting off our thinking caps, lets review shall we what we believe to be true of the previous NZS, the one that decided not to pay its megacorp royalties to Lucan after a certain heretical IRIS agency disavowed Lucan's Imperium/ his claim to the throne in 1122.
To quote:
The truth points to itself
Kosh
B5:In the Beginning

Why elaborate?
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:D ;)
 
Another great treatise! The key point is the footnote:

Originally posted by T. Foster:
*the Vilani are used to carrying on for years at a time without direct supervision. It's a centrally defining characteristic of their precedent-and-tradition-based approach, and the primary way they were able to successfully manage an empire of 15,000 worlds with only J-1 and J-2.
I can see the same managers and younger VPs being the part of the local delegation when the NZSjr makes contact.

Though it could be hard doing business as usual when all your Imperial standard equipment suddenly stops or start killing the employees. Any surviving exec would be involved with the clean up and stablizing an infrastructure, but still be community leaders.

Not disagreeing. I am putting Survival Margin changes into context with Vilani businesses.
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Mr T. Foster you are all over that like white on Rice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is precisely MJD's thinking of the vilani (age wise, as in V& V)-or so he intimated on the tne-list recently to the naysayers there. Outstanding!(stands up, heretic cheers, applause card goes up, waves to audience..)

The Vilani recontacted will more than likely have been (maybe dull,plodding etc) carrying on the same way as before. Virus is an obstacle, not the cataclysm. A PE of imperial Vilani remnants...YUS!
Excellent!
Yeah, I've been closely following developments over on TNE-RCES (but not actually participating so far -- there's too much to keep up with and I've been busier-than-usual at work) so I can't claim to have "independently invented the wheel" here -- I'm just echoing Martin's hints, filtered through my own vaguely-defined view/understanding of the situation. Thanks for the vote of confidence, though! :D
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
My reply to that:
B-5
Kosh-"It is too late for the pebbles to vote, the avalanche has already begun."
That brings to mind possible opening credits for MJD's TNE:

Kosh: And so it begins...

Then start something similar to the opening for B5 5th season with quotes and images from the previous seasons. For Traveller the quote and images can begin from 1100 CT and touch all major events up to 1200+.
 
Originally posted by George Boyett:
That brings to mind possible opening credits for MJD's TNE:

Kosh: And so it begins...

Then start something similar to the opening for B5 5th season with quotes and images from the previous seasons. For Traveller the quote and images can begin from 1100 CT and touch all major events up to 1200+.
-------------------------------------------------
GMTA, GAB. GMTA! I like it...question is, will MJD?
 
Originally posted by T. Foster:
Yeah, I've been closely following developments over on TNE-RCES (but not actually participating so far -- there's too much to keep up with and I've been busier-than-usual at work) so I can't claim to have "independently invented the wheel" here -- I'm just echoing Martin's hints, filtered through my own vaguely-defined view/understanding of the situation. Thanks for the vote of confidence, though! :D
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I do not follow it at work...I leave my tne-list sub at the house. But you have, in distancing yerself from the flare up, hit upon some of the cornerstones that emphasize why it is NOT implausible for a NZSjr to exist at all. And these are reasons I have not heard on tne-list as regency canonistas dicker it out. bravo, for taking the time from your heavy schedule sir.(more applause!)

heretically yours,
 
Please also consider a factor that will work in Vland's favor when it comes to recovering more rapidly from the effects of Virus.

Vland, like Terra, has a lineage of stored data that pre-dates electronic storage methods (worlds established in later periods will have relied almost exclusively on electronic storage methods, the 3I being a true paperless society, and thus may not have sufficient surviving knowledge dbases available to begin their reconstruction). Whereas Vland will have books and other historical documents, museum examples, etc. Books about how it was done in the good old days, likely with illustration and schematics available. The younger worlds will have to do these things based on survivor's recollections, educated guesses and trial and error, and thanks to the redundancy of their (Vland's) bureaucracy, it's all likely stored in quadruplicate, and well distributed.

For all intents and purposes, the Vilani could scrap every computer core it had on Vland, and rebuild the whole of their data network from scratch in any of a myriad of older, less (or even in-) vulnerable configurations with regards to Virus. Vland could recover quickly, with some luck.

YMMV
Larry
 
Okay...there are several good things in here thus far...
By the way, for those wanting to look at VLAND sector in TNE, here's a site with the sector collapsed that I use, site run by DED (we collaborate) up in VT,USA.

http://www.panpub.com/traveller/sectors/vland/
All this data was done by Chris Griffen/Starpilot on these CoTI pages here.

Where I have my disagreement with his UPP fer VLAND itself: (B-96799A-A S,N Hi Cp 820 F8 V)
is that without gas giants, like the VLAND system has, Vamps have a heckuva time refuelling. Also, In the Missouri Archive, under collapsing tables Errata/ fixes..is the suggested (and I concur/ adopted)rule to lower by 1 die modifier the collapse tables for worlds that have no GGs.

Chris' version of VLAND has fallen five levels on three d6. To make Quick repairs, Going behind these I simply divided the difference.(by 3 in this case)=1.6/ or 2.
So IMTU, VLAND has A-96799A-C B(both S & N), Hi Cp 820 F8 V. shortly after wards.

Applying this to the region around Vland, there are a swarm of worlds along the main in breaks with no GG's. Namely Kusheggi, Dusu, TAHAVER, Lobode, Inkha and Uri.

CG's write up "This subsector is the location of the Vilani homeworld, Vland (1717). The Vilani were the first major human race to achieve interstellar and later jump flight. In the New Era, Vland is the capital of one of the sector's pocket empires.

The Vland 13th Fleet, stationed insystem during the Collapse, while considerable by Wilds standards, is but a shadow its former self. Reinforced by ships from the 71st Fleet, which came to Vland from Kagamira Subsector during the Collapse, the fleet is comprised of three carriers, eight destroyers and several squadrons of frigates and escorts.

Vland is staunchly defended from attack on all sides. The ships of the 13th Fleet, now called simply "The Vland Fleet," are constantly and vigilantly deployed to protect Mother Vland. After Vland's three orbital starport facilities were infected by Virus and came crashing through the atmosphere in 1132, killing billions, the Vilani quickly and efficiently evaluated their situation. It was determined that all non-military ships in the system bore the risk of infection. All surviving crew of those ships were immediately evacuated and their ships destroyed. Mothballed couriers were quickly refitted and sent to Luukad (the system's outermost world) where they intercepted the Vilani 71st Fleet, brought in from Centra/Kagamira to provide support against Lucan's forces to rimward. The 71st Fleet was briefed, protected against Virus and united with the remainder of the 13th Fleet to fight an all-out battle against the Vampire ships in the system. The ships of the fleet are maintained as best they can be using cannibalized and salvaged parts from destroyed higher tech starships and TL-10 equipment manufactured on Vland. Vilani scientists are on the verge of redeveloping jump-drive manufacturing capabilities.

Though the Ziru Sirkaa, or "Restored Vilani Empire," is not the star-spanning empire it once was, the central government has been maintained and is executing a program of conservative exploration and resettling of the surrounding wilds. Outposts have been set up at Enaa (1716), Kirma (1718), Shinla (1816) and Tauri (1817), providing Vland with an advanced warning courier system in the event that a Vampire Fleet invasion should occur. The goal of the Ziru Sirkaa is to "restore the old Arshukaa Sagalaa," or "Vilani Main."


This is pretty decent write up, without taking the "no GG factor" into consideration. I reference that, because on the GG worlds on that map site, his ZS has Op positions around Vland on the worlds that have GG's!

ANy ideas how big it could be? Certainly with the die mods lessened fer lack of GG's for re-occurence of infection, the tech decline out there isnae near as bad...
 
Originally posted by DaddyDragon:
Please also consider a factor that will work in Vland's favor when it comes to recovering more rapidly from the effects of Virus.

Vland, like Terra, has a lineage of stored data that pre-dates electronic storage methods (worlds established in later periods will have relied almost exclusively on electronic storage methods, the 3I being a true paperless society, and thus may not have sufficient surviving knowledge dbases available to begin their reconstruction). Whereas Vland will have books and other historical documents, museum examples, etc. Books about how it was done in the good old days, likely with illustration and schematics available. The younger worlds will have to do these things based on survivor's recollections, educated guesses and trial and error, and thanks to the redundancy of their (Vland's) bureaucracy, it's all likely stored in quadruplicate, and well distributed.

For all intents and purposes, the Vilani could scrap every computer core it had on Vland, and rebuild the whole of their data network from scratch in any of a myriad of older, less (or even in-) vulnerable configurations with regards to Virus. Vland could recover quickly, with some luck.YMMV, Larry
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Yes, I do concur Larry. And their Library is Older, more extensive than terra's on Space travel (having been at it longer). See my above post fer ideas on how astrographically Vamps may have been hindered. (lack of GG's).
Great responses folks!
 
Originally posted by DaddyDragon:
Please also consider a factor that will work in Vland's favor when it comes to recovering more rapidly from the effects of Virus.

Vland, like Terra, has a lineage of stored data that pre-dates electronic storage methods (worlds established in later periods will have relied almost exclusively on electronic storage methods, the 3I being a true paperless society, and thus may not have sufficient surviving knowledge dbases available to begin their reconstruction). Whereas Vland will have books and other historical documents, museum examples, etc. Books about how it was done in the good old days, likely with illustration and schematics available. The younger worlds will have to do these things based on survivor's recollections, educated guesses and trial and error, and thanks to the redundancy of their (Vland's) bureaucracy, it's all likely stored in quadruplicate, and well distributed.

For all intents and purposes, the Vilani could scrap every computer core it had on Vland, and rebuild the whole of their data network from scratch in any of a myriad of older, less (or even in-) vulnerable configurations with regards to Virus. Vland could recover quickly, with some luck.

YMMV
Larry
Great Analysis DD! :cool:

Besides the museums and archives, I won't be surprise that a small part of the population are paid to know and teach the old ways, something similar to the living national treasures craftsmen of Japan. This will be for the preservation of culture and traditions.

Again good insight.
 
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