The New Ziru Sirkaa PE...ideas

[GBoyett]

Hey I just caught something from this topic. No I'm not talking about a social disease!

Vland system has no gas giants!?!

Where did they get the hydrogen for the first jump missions?

How did they maintain themselves as a major trade and transport center?

It doesn't make sense.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
Hey I just caught something from this topic. Vland system has no gas giants!?!

Where did they get the hydrogen for the first jump missions?
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from converting it from their oceans silly! Who do you think invented "wilderness waterworld refuelling?" C'mon, GAB! ANd Orbital stations (They had three) can be built at TL-8+...(JTAS 23)
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How did they maintain themselves as a major trade and transport center?

It doesn't make sense.

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What doesn't make sense? They had a J-1 main reaching into 7 subsectors! And at J-2 later on (TL-11) as they spread outwards from Vland.

 

[Liam Devlin]

(I seem to have crossed 1500? Oh well).
Additional collapse tweaks (from Missouri Archive site (TNE).

"If no tech loss, no starport loss"...
"If tech is TL-6 or less, no tech loss"...
"If no tech lost,(thus starport not lost) population has no die off"...

Add that in, and Sazisi (Vland/Vland/1719) should still be E-class port, TL-8 (3GG's).

The Ag trade worlds of Kusheggi (Vland/Vland/1918)pop7, and Lobode (Vland/Vland/2019)pop 5, should be both TL-4 and still have their E-class starports (I also argue that what would a Vampire want from them anyway?)

Using the worst case scenario/ law of averages
and the No GG's rule for collapse effects:
Dusu D-class port, TL-7, pop6 (1819)
Khula, C-class port, Navy base, TL-10, pop7 (1919)
Tahaver, C-class port, TL-8, Pop9 Hi Wa (2017)
and place the Watch outpost at Uri instead of Tauri.
Now w're talkin a PE in the making...

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by George Boyett:
Hey I just caught something from this topic. Vland system has no gas giants!?!

Where did they get the hydrogen for the first jump missions?
________________________________________________
from converting it from their oceans silly! Who do you think invented "wilderness waterworld refuelling?" C'mon, GAB! ANd Orbital stations (They had three) can be built at TL-8+...(JTAS 23)
_________________________________________________

How did they maintain themselves as a major trade and transport center?

It doesn't make sense.

_________________________________________________
What doesn't make sense? They had a J-1 main reaching into 7 subsectors! And at J-2 later on (TL-11) as they spread outwards from Vland.</font>[/QUOTE]I did figure they would use the oceans at first.

The problem I have is how do they supply the fuel for all the starships that visit Vland? They can't rely on the oceans because millenia of use would cause environmental damage from usage. The only other sources are asteroids, comets, and other systems.

It just seems expensive compared to Terra that has it's own gas giants, along with asteroids and comets.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Not to fear my soon-to-be TNE heretic! VLAND has two asteroid belts, one of which I'm sure has Ice despoits for exploitation,..err starship use!

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
VLAND has two asteroid belts, one of which I'm sure has Ice despoits for exploitation,..err starship use!

Can two asteroid belts really have enough hydrogen sources for millenia of starship traffic?

What about all the various fleets with 10,000+ dton warships that have been stationed thru out Vland's history.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Not to fear my soon-to-be TNE heretic!

I'll never turn from the True Path!!

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
The problem I have is how do they supply the fuel for all the starships that visit Vland? They can't rely on the oceans because millenia of use would cause environmental damage from usage. The only other sources are asteroids, comets, and other systems.

It just seems expensive compared to Terra that has it's own gas giants, along with asteroids and comets.

Hm..let's assume that Vland has total yearly trade volume of 1 billion dtons. Typical traders use about 1/3 of a dton of hydrogen per dton cargo, so in the past 3,000 years it's used a trillion tons of hydrogen (I suspect the actual figure is about 1/10 this). One cubic kilometer of water provides 100 million tons of hydrogen, so total water usage is 10,000 cubic kilometers.

The earth has 1.4 billion cubic kilometers of stored water. Vland should have a similar magnitude. They've used up less than 1/100,000 of their oceans.

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Anthony:
The earth has 1.4 billion cubic kilometers of stored water. Vland should have a similar magnitude. They've used up less than 1/100,000 of their oceans.

Not to mention that Vland is size 9 and thus has appreciably more water than earth (size 8, both hydro 7). Combined with iceteroid/comet mining, I'd say Vland's in no danger of running out of water anytime soon...

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
VLAND has two asteroid belts, one of which I'm sure has Ice despoits for exploitation,..err starship use!

Can two asteroid belts really have enough hydrogen sources for millenia of starship traffic?

What about all the various fleets with 10,000+ dton warships that have been stationed thru out Vland's history.
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Sigh. See the above two posts (My Great and heartfelt thanks to the learned Anthony & T. Foster for clearing my befuddled colleague's fog.)
GAB (look up/|\ )!
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Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Not to fear my soon-to-be TNE heretic!

I'll never turn from the True Path!!

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]_________________________________________________
Yield to the dark side GAB! Search your reasoning...NZSjr lives!!!!!!!!! VLAND shall rise AGAIN! (voice over...evil laughter)

 

[kafka47]

Perhaps, the like of a gas giant was the impetus to go forth into the universe. Once they started discovering Gas Giants along the Main they started a long distance trade in Hydrogen...

Given a fairly strong Preservationist movement at home and the first attempts at First Contact, yield the fact that the Vilani were the new Masters of the Universe. The merchant princes quickly became the process of reorganizing the bureaus into a more solid zaibatsu. For while I do believe in the static state of Vilani society, it still possessed enough dynamism, in the form of dissenters and subcultures that would propel it forward. Keeping the Rebels in line was the task of the police to keep on exiling rebels further rimward, a policy without much flaws until they met the first interfertile human species.

It was at that point that consolidation wars took place. The resulting empire would be a steady state empire. Following Viland's initial expansion, colonies only setting up offshoots when the resources of their worlds seemed threatened.

I think some our problems with the whole ZS thing is that we are viewing the progress of Vland, as a pseudo-West...

Perhaps, we ought to look it through the lenses of another civilization - my suggestion would be that of the Indian subcontinent. This would involve looking at history in a cyclar pattern - each cycle governed by the dominance of one class before expanding outward into the next pattern. Where I would draw my inspiration for fleshing this model would be the old book: The Great Depression of 1990 (Ravi Batra).

Each of the cycles rather than class could be represented by the rise of a particular bureaux into the position of Emperor.

The new ZS could find that this model of steady state growth, not dynamic enough to sustain the expansion needed and begin to introduce modifications. Now because the majority of worlds in the Vlani sphere are quasi-self sufficient, when the crisis of 1116 occurs, they revert back to the old ZS methods that proved tried and true.

This model would create a dynamic for the centralization of power in Vland and explain the outward urge by some the frontier worlds of ZS during the Rebellion and post-Rebellion events.

One should also never underestimate also the power of the AAB to also diseminate information. While the Vilani were cautious about giving technology to "aliens" they had no problem hoarding it themselves. In the racial purificaiton campaigns that started in the Hard Times and continued into TNE, there is no reason believe that the Vilani did not fall prey to the Solomani disease of racial superiority...

 

[Elliot]

In fact Kafka is right = the whole major/minor race distinction is an artefact of the First Imperium. The AAB even tried in their yellow propaganda organ Imperialines to suggest that the Terrans were lifted up by Vilani visitations.

However, unlike the Solomani, Vilani racism was not that of the fascists, rather that of the Roman Empire that classified people according to their distance away from Rome. That is why it seemed that when the technologically (read Meson weapons and viral agents) and strategically superior (read nastier) Terran attacked, the barbarians were truly at the gates.

 

[kafka47]

Eliott,

But, I take it that you don't subscribe to my view that the Vilani Imperium, is the reincarnation of India in the Stars...

When I think about it further, it would only be logical that pre-Raj and pre-Mogul India would form a dynamic yet static enough society that could serve as a template for the Vilani. Both have castes, very rigid technological transfer laws, emperors that were a council. The only problem is cuisine...India does have it share of processed veggies with spices to offset taste. The Vilani cuisine is more akin to the bland side and I don't think they would have anything compared to the Solomani, but, hey maybe in 100yrs we will be all eating exotic fauxflesh...