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The Pinnace Wing Problem

far-trader

SOC-14 10K
Rather than post in the art gallery (just a personal choice) for what is an exercise in mechanics I figured a thread here would be better.

First off my quick doodles in SketchUp (simplified and reduced):

PinnaceWingProblem.png


From the left:

First is the approximate book design. Wings extended on top and retracted on the bottom. Note that to have a swing point it has to be inside the drives area. And if on the hull centerline that means cutting the area in half for most of the length. Not a real problem though. The real problem is approximating a wing shape means the root area (the delta wing) has to be thicker to accomodate the extending wing. It's doable so there's really no reason to change it. The original design and artwork will work with the noted drives area intrusion. However...

Next is the first fix of the issue of how they fit together. By making the delta wing only when retracted you can get rid of a lot of the extra thick root (delta wing). But that creates it's own problem, that pointy bit and skinny attachment for the wobbly outboard triangle is bad (in a lot of ways) and gets in the way when folding the wing back. So...

The last is the fix for the second version problem. Just cut the bad triangle off. You retain the general idea of a delta wing for high speed with the wing folded and the ability to flare the wing out for slow speed lift. As a bonus the remaining root at the back now looks more like (and might function better as) horizontal stabilizers with the wings flared.

That's my quick take, I'm going to go play in the snow now :) My truck has been camouflaged as a snow bank long enough, it's finally warm enough that I can't use extreme frostbite risk as an excuse to avoid digging it out :)

Discuss (the wing problem, not me playing in the snow, unless you want to).
 
I tracked down one of the real world delta swing wing designs I recalled from my youth. More the way it should maybe look on the Pinnace :)

Pretty close to my take on it, but then it was one of my inspirations years ago so no surprise. The Boeing 2707:


DeltaSwingWing2707concept.png


DeltaSwingWing2707model.png
 
Crapskis!

Actually I too posted under the illo and then found this, but the point is the same as f-t's but I used the F-111 Aardvark, mmmm, love the 'Vark, that and the XB-70 Valkyrie (now there was a sh!t hot bird!).

Oh and Good Knight, have fun paying...ummm, playing in the snow. Ah, how I hate winter...
 
On the Rhino I had them fold forward - they deploy outside of atmosphere so they don't get ripped off in the process.



Crow
 
Are the tail fins necessary at all?
I solved a similar problem with a wedge shape craft (Trek shuttle) by having a false bottom, so the wings effectively stowed under the craft yet were protected on landing. It was inspired by Chitty Chitty Bang Bang if you must know. I had a pair of fins on the roof that folded flat and erected to a V form.
 
Are the tail fins necessary at all?
I solved a similar problem with a wedge shape craft (Trek shuttle) by having a false bottom, so the wings effectively stowed under the craft yet were protected on landing. It was inspired by Chitty Chitty Bang Bang if you must know. I had a pair of fins on the roof that folded flat and erected to a V form.
 
...maybe we need in a picture of both types of Pinnances in future supplements.

Agreed. I wondered where you were going with that pic ;)

For what it's worth towards the discussion (and I hope within fair use guidelines therefore) I've long been enamored of W.H.Keith's depictions of the Traveller universe. Specifically to this discussion his drawings of the Pinnace and Slow Pinnace which I first found in "The Traveller Book":

WHKeithPinnaceandSlowPinnace.png


(note the wings extended pinnace in the top of the first frame and the yucky triangle floppy bit... )

I do like the aerodynamic one but docking and craft space become a bit of an issue. The non aerodynamic would still have some issues but not as much for docking space.

I agree with the issue (external carry is the answer to a lot of issues), and as you can see the W.H.Keith Slow Pinnace would be just about as problematic to park in a bay with those big vertical stabilizer fins, even landing it would be a problem. Unless they somehow fold away.

I think that a Starship that is not worried so much about very maneuverable small craft would just use the standard Pinnance (with out wings) since it would be able to fit into docking slots for the Launch and the Ships boat.

Depends on your take of the docking slots I guess. I don't see them fitting though. The "standard" launch and boat are 4.5m diameter while the pinnaces seem to be 4.5m wide and 3m high at the front and flaring out halfway back. Hunh, I'd forgotten about the canards! And now they're ringing a bell that I'd been playing with them in SketchUp a while back and forgotten about it. Probably having problems making things work :) Wonder where I saved it to...


If would look at the 2 drawings, you will see that the interior layout (not counting the wings or the extra 10 tons) is the only difference between the inside dimensions of the Ships Boat and the Pinnance.

I see what you mean but don't quite see it that way. However...

Which in turn leads me to believe that they (Imperium designers) could have just strapped some engines on the Ships Boat and made it more powerful and give it more internal cargo room (because between the 2 drawings you only have 18 squares extra on the Pinnance which comes out to 9 ton and there is only Official 10 ton difference between them.

...BINGO! That's the way I've long felt about it. Sort of anyway :) It should be the way you are looking at imo. The Boats are the basic streamlined form (3.5m diameter), the Pinnaces are the full airframe form (3.5m diameter but bigger by the outboard nacelles and wings adding 10tons). Yep, both Pinnaces should (and do imtu) look the same externally. Just like both Boats look the same externally. And all four are built on the same basic hull.
 
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