mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
As an aside, were letter codes ever given for rosettes, ringworlds and sphereworlds?
M
Malenfant
Guest
I'd like that too (though Ellipsoids would need to be replaced), but it doesn't look possible.
Well, actually... it could be possible, but then you'd run into all the ambiguities I mentioned in my first post again. I don't think that'd be particularly useful.
Er, you realise you just described an Atmosphere 4 world, right?
. I'd worry about that if the main driving force was 100% compatibility, but it isn't. I want to make a working, realistic system here - if that has to be a bit different from the current system, then so be it.
I never really found it to be ambiguous, but then, I never felt like I needed to know the atmospheric pressure, composition and corrosiveness beyond what it could do to the characters. Sure, it's fun to have that lying around if you need it, but I have WBH (and even GS/GC) to cover those parameters.
But I can understand that what works for me won't always work for others.
Sorry about the typo... Atm 4, not 5. You're right.
I guess I'll have to wait and see what you come up with before I make an actual decision on whether or not I'd use it, because it sounds like it's going to involve some sort of change. As to how radical it is, we'll have to wait and see.
More later,
Flynn
But I can understand that what works for me won't always work for others.
Sorry about the typo... Atm 4, not 5. You're right.
I guess I'll have to wait and see what you come up with before I make an actual decision on whether or not I'd use it, because it sounds like it's going to involve some sort of change. As to how radical it is, we'll have to wait and see.
More later,
Flynn
M
Malenfant
Guest
The main problem I have with the character-centric definitions is that they're so vague that a given world with the same UWP might be rather different between two different TUs.
IIRC (I don't have the book next to me right now, a Thin (5) atmosphere for example only requires that people need to wear respirators. But is that because the atmosphere is itself thin but has enough oxygen in it to be just about breathable? Or because it's actually thick, but has little oxygen in it? Because the air pressure makes a fairly big difference when it comes to other things (like air-powered engines, and aircraft). Different people may do different things for their games.
And type A atmospheres simply don't have oxygen, but don't require protective suits - but that assumes that they're in the habitable zone. What about the case of Titan, which has an exotic atmosphere but has a surface temperature of 90K? You wouldn't be able to walk around there with just an air mask
M
Malenfant
Guest
Now you see the problem
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hmm...
A thought, only half born this minute but perhaps worth following.
The original UWP was only ever meant to describe the mainworld of a system. That mainworld was always in the habitable zone of the system's (most) stable sun.
It could be that part of the reason for the sparse nature of the original stellar distribution was it was meant to be only earth type stars, but that point is moot given later stellar work, so we'll ignore it.
The main point is perhaps the way to approach the problems of the UWP is to stick to the original plan. That is the UWP describes the mainworld of the habitable zone, the one the system is named for. Any other worlds should be described by an entirely seperate profile.
So in the case of atmosphere, for example, perhaps a simple notation of the effect on the basic atmosphere for each UWP type for the temperature zone (inner, outer if that's enough) would suffice.
Just looking for some simplicity.
As to one question above, I've always taken the mainworld atmosphere to mean the relative pressure and mix to a standard breathable atmosphere, as measured at the starport (rather than sea-level), except for the obvious Exotic, Corrosive and Insidious of course.
Same as I take the size to be of standard density and hence the gravity calculations (i.e. no cannonballs or puffballs for the mainworld).
That said I'd like a guideline on what results are improbable and what are impossible. Like size relates to atmo, etc., so we can each correct as needed any mainworlds randomly generated that make no sense, like that atmo 8 size 1.
Just a thought.
A thought, only half born this minute but perhaps worth following.
The original UWP was only ever meant to describe the mainworld of a system. That mainworld was always in the habitable zone of the system's (most) stable sun.
It could be that part of the reason for the sparse nature of the original stellar distribution was it was meant to be only earth type stars, but that point is moot given later stellar work, so we'll ignore it.
The main point is perhaps the way to approach the problems of the UWP is to stick to the original plan. That is the UWP describes the mainworld of the habitable zone, the one the system is named for. Any other worlds should be described by an entirely seperate profile.
So in the case of atmosphere, for example, perhaps a simple notation of the effect on the basic atmosphere for each UWP type for the temperature zone (inner, outer if that's enough) would suffice.
Just looking for some simplicity.
As to one question above, I've always taken the mainworld atmosphere to mean the relative pressure and mix to a standard breathable atmosphere, as measured at the starport (rather than sea-level), except for the obvious Exotic, Corrosive and Insidious of course.
Same as I take the size to be of standard density and hence the gravity calculations (i.e. no cannonballs or puffballs for the mainworld).
That said I'd like a guideline on what results are improbable and what are impossible. Like size relates to atmo, etc., so we can each correct as needed any mainworlds randomly generated that make no sense, like that atmo 8 size 1.
Just a thought.
M
Malenfant
Guest
That's kinda what I'm doing. I've split things up into Inner, Habitable, Middle, and Outer Zones, with different tables for each. I could have just looked at Habitable zone only, but I figured it'd be less hassle in the long run to make a generation system that can handle all cases rather than design one to handle a specific case. (plus, worlds orbiting an M V star aren't ever in a habitable zone because it's within orbit 0).
One could assume that atms 2-9 describes pressure rather than composition, so a type 3/5/6/8 atmosphere in the outer zone just means it has a given pressure range but is exotic in nature, and 2/4/7/9 are corrosive in nature (like WBH's "non-irritant" and "irritant" worlds). That makes sense to me. But then where does that leave A and B worlds? Are they just higher pressure (2.5 to 100 atms) versions of the above? And A and B would presumably be the only possible way you can have an non-N2/O2 atmosphere in the habitable zone?
I'd like to do that if I can... but I might have to rejiggle my system to do that. I may have backed myself into a corner here.
One could assume that atms 2-9 describes pressure rather than composition, so a type 3/5/6/8 atmosphere in the outer zone just means it has a given pressure range but is exotic in nature, and 2/4/7/9 are corrosive in nature (like WBH's "non-irritant" and "irritant" worlds). That makes sense to me. But then where does that leave A and B worlds? Are they just higher pressure (2.5 to 100 atms) versions of the above? And A and B would presumably be the only possible way you can have an non-N2/O2 atmosphere in the habitable zone?
I'd like to do that if I can... but I might have to rejiggle my system to do that. I may have backed myself into a corner here.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Sounds good to me. I'd been thinking maybe another region too. Inner, Habitable, Outer and Distant. But maybe Middle works better. Or both, not sure.
Anyway, yeah, I'd like to see an explanation for exotics and such in the habitable zone. Extreme pressure could do it I think but what about just a different mix?
I recall reading a long time ago that a couple or few percent more O2 in Earth's atmo and it'd spontaneously combust while the same percent less and we'd asphyxiate (though that is more tied to evolution than mix). The point being I'm not sure we'd find any world beyond our own with the right balance. Barring serious terraforming, er that sounds odd
Correct as I understand it (making like earth/terra) but odd. Is there such a term as something like atmophorming
What fun And once you* get yourself out of this hole there's hydro, and pop, and gov, and law, and
*we if you find any of our help helpful I'm not saying it's all your's or on you but you are the lead and most expert for this stuff I think.
Anyway, yeah, I'd like to see an explanation for exotics and such in the habitable zone. Extreme pressure could do it I think but what about just a different mix?
I recall reading a long time ago that a couple or few percent more O2 in Earth's atmo and it'd spontaneously combust while the same percent less and we'd asphyxiate (though that is more tied to evolution than mix). The point being I'm not sure we'd find any world beyond our own with the right balance. Barring serious terraforming, er that sounds odd
What fun
And once you* get yourself out of this hole there's hydro, and pop, and gov, and law, and
*we if you find any of our help helpful
I'm not saying it's all your's or on you but you are the lead and most expert for this stuff I think.
M
Malenfant
Guest
I think Middle's a bit more useful (for stuff between the habitable zone and the snow line). Worlds in orbit 0 around the most massive M V stars will be in the Middle zone.
Those are High/Low O2 taints. And yes, I'm going more with the WBH definitions of taint, not the Book 3 ones. It fits in more with using pressure to define the atmosphere.
I am thinking of making tainted breathable atmospheres more likely than untainted ones to reflect this. The latter won't be too unlikely, though.
Lets see, redefine the problem:
Pressure is key one: 7 steps (none, Trace, VTh, Th, Std, Den, VDen)
Breathability is the other key: Inert, Breathable, Filterable, Toxic, Reactive.
35 entries. So, if we simply shift the scale based upon breathability, with the 7 bases (actually 6, as None is None).
Here's an Idea:
0 - None
1 - Trace
2 - VTh -B
3 - Th-B
4 - St-B
5 - D-B
6 - VD-B
7 - Tr-T
8 - VTh-T
9 - Th-T
A - St-T
B - D-T
C - VD-T
D - Tr-I
E - VTh-I
F - Th-I
G - St-I
H - De-I
J - VD-I
K - Tr-R
L - VT-R
M - Th-R
N - St-R
P - De-R
Q - VD-R
Different ordering would probably be better, but the basic idea is 0 is nothing. 1-6 is Breathable, 7-C is Tainted, D-J is Inert*, and K-Q is Reactive; we could add R-W could be Destructive (Pressure, reactivity, and/or temperature), thus, ironically, venus would be W, mars would be E, Titan is .... hmm...
A revised system should account for atmosphereic mix/Temp and separately for pressure.
Pressure is key one: 7 steps (none, Trace, VTh, Th, Std, Den, VDen)
Breathability is the other key: Inert, Breathable, Filterable, Toxic, Reactive.
35 entries. So, if we simply shift the scale based upon breathability, with the 7 bases (actually 6, as None is None).
Here's an Idea:
0 - None
1 - Trace
2 - VTh -B
3 - Th-B
4 - St-B
5 - D-B
6 - VD-B
7 - Tr-T
8 - VTh-T
9 - Th-T
A - St-T
B - D-T
C - VD-T
D - Tr-I
E - VTh-I
F - Th-I
G - St-I
H - De-I
J - VD-I
K - Tr-R
L - VT-R
M - Th-R
N - St-R
P - De-R
Q - VD-R
Different ordering would probably be better, but the basic idea is 0 is nothing. 1-6 is Breathable, 7-C is Tainted, D-J is Inert*, and K-Q is Reactive; we could add R-W could be Destructive (Pressure, reactivity, and/or temperature), thus, ironically, venus would be W, mars would be E, Titan is .... hmm...
A revised system should account for atmosphereic mix/Temp and separately for pressure.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
That's much tougher to remember than the first scale.
It also doesn't get by the basic no-no of collapsing multiple attributes into a single attribute.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I can only think of one objection to altering the UWP.
Existing software will not support the changes.
Mal can generate whatever UWP he wants, we can acknowledge that it is right, true, and brave (because it probably will be), but that won't help me load it into Galactic, or Heaven & Earth, or whatever.
Existing software will not support the changes.
Mal can generate whatever UWP he wants, we can acknowledge that it is right, true, and brave (because it probably will be), but that won't help me load it into Galactic, or Heaven & Earth, or whatever.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Don't panic, I think I cracked it - I figured it out on the ferry to Vancouver yesterday.
I think I've found a way to get a standard UWP digit for atmosphere out of Pressure and Composition. You figure out the latter two first, then distill the atmosphere code out of that and put THAT in the UWP as normal (Pressure and Composition would be extra bits at the end). I can generate any of the standard UWP codes using this method.
So you'll get a standard atmosphere UWP digit (with some digits being redefined/clarified and G and H being added), but it'll be realistic this time. Huzzah!
I think I've found a way to get a standard UWP digit for atmosphere out of Pressure and Composition. You figure out the latter two first, then distill the atmosphere code out of that and put THAT in the UWP as normal (Pressure and Composition would be extra bits at the end). I can generate any of the standard UWP codes using this method.
So you'll get a standard atmosphere UWP digit (with some digits being redefined/clarified and G and H being added), but it'll be realistic this time. Huzzah!
M
Malenfant
Guest
Two other weird things I noticed - if you have a size A world, it can be impossible to have a tainted Thin atmosphere in the current generation system - but you can have an untainted Thin atmosphere. It's somewhat unrealistic to say that a size 9 world can have one, but a size A can't?
Also, while 0-C are compositional definitions, D-F aren't - they're physical definitions. D is an N2/O2 mix whose pressure is too high at the surface to be habitable. E is an unrealistically shaped planet, and F is simply a Thin atmosphere on a massive world with big trenches.
Also, while 0-C are compositional definitions, D-F aren't - they're physical definitions. D is an N2/O2 mix whose pressure is too high at the surface to be habitable. E is an unrealistically shaped planet, and F is simply a Thin atmosphere on a massive world with big trenches.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Actually, the problem has now moved on to figuring out what UWP codes I use for all the other pressure/composition combinations that are generated that don't fit in the default system...
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well, the rest of it can get done now...
It shouldn't be too hard to get the rest of the UWP done. Though the government digit is probably going to get tweaked somewhat (for one thing, I'm dropping the reliance on the population digit. That should mix things up a bit)
clair_rand
SOC-9
the way i see it theres two ways round this... the way i use now and one i used to use.. the old one first.
think binary, you have give or take 24 letters and 10 digets.. drop the last two letters and this gives you 32.. now 32 can be represented as a five bit number, thus you can have five 'flags', say:
1 + 2 provide pressure (4 levels)
3,4 & 5 provide for 8 compositions
thus you have..
00 none
01 thin
10 normal
11 dense
and
000 none
001 O2 + N2 mix breathable
010 inert
011 reducing (methane etc)
100 corrosive
101 'other'
110 'other'
111 'other'
these can be combined thus
10 001 provides normal pressure, breathable, with a UWP or 17, or 'H'
it lacks the instand readability or the current system and isn't that detailed but its not that hard to use. I did something similar with most of the other UWP digets too.
the second method, that i now use.. is to just use GURPS space to generate the worlds, work back from there to a UWP as a 'quick ref' with the full doc to back it up as needed. thus you can see from the UWP you can't breath the atmosphere and if you actually *care* why not, you can find out.
I'll dig the rest of the UWP coding i did up if anyones interested.
think binary, you have give or take 24 letters and 10 digets.. drop the last two letters and this gives you 32.. now 32 can be represented as a five bit number, thus you can have five 'flags', say:
1 + 2 provide pressure (4 levels)
3,4 & 5 provide for 8 compositions
thus you have..
00 none
01 thin
10 normal
11 dense
and
000 none
001 O2 + N2 mix breathable
010 inert
011 reducing (methane etc)
100 corrosive
101 'other'
110 'other'
111 'other'
these can be combined thus
10 001 provides normal pressure, breathable, with a UWP or 17, or 'H'
it lacks the instand readability or the current system and isn't that detailed but its not that hard to use. I did something similar with most of the other UWP digets too.
the second method, that i now use.. is to just use GURPS space to generate the worlds, work back from there to a UWP as a 'quick ref' with the full doc to back it up as needed. thus you can see from the UWP you can't breath the atmosphere and if you actually *care* why not, you can find out.
I'll dig the rest of the UWP coding i did up if anyones interested.
