• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

The problem with Atmospheres

Right now I've got a standard atmosphere UWP (going from 0 to H) to put in the 7-digit UWP code. For the most part that's the same as the old version, though some digits mean different things now (E-H is new).

I've also got Pressure and Composition digits that are separate from the UWP (like the PBG digits) to nail things down further. So now you could have a Thin, Low atmosphere that had an exotic composition. That would be an atmosphere UWP of E, a pressure digit of 3, and a composition digit of A. I've got different composition codes for habitable atmospheres too, from D-H (G is "Garden" - untainted - and the rest are taints).
 
I agree with Clairs 2nd method. Work out the planetary details with a more detailed system, i use GT:First In, and then work backwards to a UWP. That way a UWP could actually be simplified in many ways.
 
I like Malenfant's solution, keep the UPP as is, and add the extra data by expanding the PGB info.

What I want is a nice quick system for UPP generation, but with the extra detail if necessary.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
That's kinda what I'm doing. I've split things up into Inner, Habitable, Middle, and Outer Zones, with different tables for each. I could have just looked at Habitable zone only, but I figured it'd be less hassle in the long run to make a generation system that can handle all cases rather than design one to handle a specific case. (plus, worlds orbiting an M V star aren't ever in a habitable zone because it's within orbit 0).
Sounds like the orbital sizes/numbers need to be changed, too.
 
Straybow,

The format of orbital information may need changing, but that information isn't stored in the standard or extended UWP, so altering its format isn't as significant.

Malenfant's technique is the minimally disruptive one that gets the job done, and correctly normalizes the atmospheric data Attributes. Anything that takes a step toward normalization is to be sought out and embraced.
 
The orbit numbers don't really matter at this stage... though now I'm figuring out hydrographics I'm wondering if it might be worth figuring out the temperature too - which means defining where the planet is, what the luminosity of the star is, etc. Ack.
 
Sorry to dredge up such an old thread, but I came across this last night and thought I'd share how I handled non-earthlike atmospheres IMTU.
Originally posted by far-trader:
The original UWP was only ever meant to describe the mainworld of a system. That mainworld was always in the habitable zone of the system's (most) stable sun....

So in the case of atmosphere, for example, perhaps a simple notation of the effect on the basic atmosphere for each UWP type for the temperature zone (inner, outer if that's enough) would suffice.
far-trader made the same observation that I did - that UWPs are designed to describe conditions in habitable zones around stars, not the more exotic conditions likely to be found elsewhere in stellar systems generated using LBB 6 and the like.

As far-trader suggests and Aramis describes, I came up with a series of alternate atmosphere codes that I use for the planets in the inner and outer zones of my star systems:
M...very thin, corrosive
N...very thin, exotic
P...thin, corrosive
Q...thin, exotic
R...standard, exotic
S...standard, corrosive
T...dense, exotic
U...dense, corrosive
V...very dense, exotic
W...very dense, corrosive
I generate atmospheres for planets normally - if the planet is in the inner or outer zone of the system, then I simply translate the UWP atmos number to this table (2 is M, 3 is N, and so on). I also use this for mainworlds without a biosphere that produces oxygen.

I didn't provide codes for insidious atmospheres - instead, a roll of 1 on 1D makes a corrosive atmosphere insidious, a fact which is recorded on the star system worksheet. This isn't a big deal for me, since there is a quite a volume of information about most planets not contained in the UWP anyway, such as surface temperature and so on.

It's not a detailed system by any means, but then that's true of the whole UWP system, IMHX - my codes are meant to provide a broad-brush that I use for background, leaving the fine detail work for later as needed.

It works for me. YTUMMV, as ever.
 
IMTU I have done away with UWPs for world generation.

I generate six parameters to determine planetary environment:

Size - generated with 2d6, not 2d6-2 as per (T20) rules (size*1,500km is the approximate diameter)

Atmospheric density - generated like the atmosphere digit per (T20) rules

Hydrographics - as per (T20) rules

Temperature - 2d6-7+Atmospheric density-
Hydrographics, +3 per orbit inside (i.e. closer than) the habitable zone, -2 per per orbit outside (further away than) the habitable zone

Native Life - 2d6, modified by atmospheric pressure (0 => -4, 1-2 => -2, 11-12 => -2, 13+ => -4), hydrographics (0 => -4), temperature (-1 per 2 beyond -2 or 2)

Atmospheric Composition - 2d6, modified by native life (0 to 4 => -4, 5 or 6 => +0, 7-8 => +2, 9+ => +4)
Result:
0 or less: corrosive (insidious if the roll was a natural 2)
1-5: toxic (corrosive if the roll was a natural 2)
6-8: marginal
9-10: sub-optimal
11+: optimal

"toxic" means exotic or unbreathable tainted atmosphere
"marginal" means either breathable tainted or untainted, barely breathable atmosphere (low oxygen, for example)
"sub-optimal" and "optimal" are normally breathable atmosphere, although those not accustomed to it will find sub-optimal atmospheres uncomfortable

A Native Life value of 12 (after modifiers), BTW, means the planet has a native sentient life-form that has achieved at least TL 0.
 
First a big hello from a long-time traveller! Excellent forum, wish we had it back in the day.

Anyway, I was thinking about tainted atmospheres and trying to limit the possibilities to those that are actually possible. Thusfar I have:
-Disease organisms
-noxious organic substances (like a toxic pollen, etc)
-volcanic degassing (SO2, H2S seem most reasonable...perhaps HCl as well?)
-O2 taint, i.e. too high or too low

I do have some suspicions...
-I wonder if enough CO could be produced (for example via volcanism) to create a taint (I hesitate to list it, as I'd imagine the amount of free oxygen allowing an atmosphere to be otherwise breathable would result in majority CO2 rather than CO production).
-I have read that HCN can be produced by volcanoes, but am skeptical that this might produce enough for a taint (http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad61.htm#4.1)
-Natural radioactive substances? How could that much radon be produced? I seriously doubt it. It seems to me an ambient radiation danger (not enough to end life, but enough to seriously endanger humans) would not be atmospheric (although dust storms would be fun) but rather an overall planetary hazard (Amber Zone perhaps...or red).
-Nuclear war would not, IMO, forever taint a planetary atmosphere. The materials would settle out and eventually decay. In the book Under the Cloud evidence indicates that the fission products of a nuclear blast actually rain out (whether by actual rain or not) rather quickly all things being considered (certainly does not require years)
-Speaking of dust storms, even worlds subjected to heavy dust storms would probably have occasional taints rather than permanent ones.
-Long ago I wanted to incorporate a realistic nitrogen taint that would cause "the bends" if travellers changed altitude frequently after inhaling the atmosphere unfiltered. Now I do not believe this to be possible under any circumstances (other than the ones we Terrans are familiar with).

[BTW other than heat and pressure, I have my doubts about "insidious" atmospheres. I imagine most if not all of the non-temp or pressure related worlds would just be exotic, irritant or corrosive.]

I know this somewhat limits the agents that can cause a more-or-less worldwide taint, but IMHO unless a world has an exotic atmosphere the list will probably be short. I wonder if there might be more (I'm no expert!). If someone has a contradiction or other thought please feel free - a corrected mistake can be as useful as verification.

Also, thanks to all the contributors here.
 
Originally posted by hydrozoa:
First a big hello from a long-time traveller! Excellent forum, wish we had it back in the day.

Anyway, I was thinking about tainted atmospheres and trying to limit the possibilities to those that are actually possible. Thusfar I have:
-Disease organisms
-noxious organic substances (like a toxic pollen, etc)
-volcanic degassing (SO2, H2S seem most reasonable...perhaps HCl as well?)
-O2 taint, i.e. too high or too low

I do have some suspicions...
-I wonder if enough CO could be produced (for example via volcanism) to create a taint (I hesitate to list it, as I'd imagine the amount of free oxygen allowing an atmosphere to be otherwise breathable would result in majority CO2 rather than CO production).

CO is stable under earth-like atmospheric conditions. It could definitively be a taint (a very insidiuos one) and may accumulate in low lying areas.


-I have read that HCN can be produced by volcanoes, but am skeptical that this might produce enough for a taint (http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad61.htm#4.1)

Oh yeah. Also HCN is believed by some to be a part of earth's early atmosphere. On the chemistry of HCN in an earth-like atmosphere, this could be very interesting as teh boiling point is 26.6° celcius. Room temperature is considered 25°C. Liquid HCN is very dangerous stuff, it can explosively polymerize especially n the presence of water. The fire realeasing cynaide gas.
toast.gif
The winter on such tainted worlds could be nasty. I believe HCN has some reactivity with O2, but I'm not sure it is high enough that if volcanoes were outgassing HCN that there couldn't be a fair taint in the atmosphere. Depending on the mechanism or production, HCN reacted with O2 in the presence of a silver catalyst produces cyanogen (CN)2 a lovely, stable, yet deadly substance that can burn with an increadibly hot flame (~4750°C) in O2 releasing of course cyanide in the process. Worlds with HCN taint are probably red-zone. ;)



-Natural radioactive substances? How could that much radon be produced? I seriously doubt it. It seems to me an ambient radiation danger (not enough to end life, but enough to seriously endanger humans) would not be atmospheric (although dust storms would be fun) but rather an overall planetary hazard (Amber Zone perhaps...or red).


The half life of the most stable isotope of radon is less than 4 days and radon is heavier than air. So if the taint exists I would imagineit to be local, e.g., in valleys, where it is produced by radioactive decay. Of course, its abundant presence would indicate readily accesible radioactive isotopes.


-Nuclear war would not, IMO, forever taint a planetary atmosphere. The materials would settle out and eventually decay. In the book Under the Cloud evidence indicates that the fission products of a nuclear blast actually rain out (whether by actual rain or not) rather quickly all things being considered (certainly does not require years)


It all depends how high up in the atmosphere things are sent. If sent into the stratosphere (and I'm not speaking metaphorically) which is very likely for a big 1 MTon bomb the cycle time of material from the stratosphere to troposphere is on the order of 100 years. Stuff will be coming out of the statosphere for quite some time. The danger after the first couple of years isn't so much from the stuff floating around but the radioactive isotopes (some with half lives reaching into the 1000's of years) in the water, soil, animals. Some isotopes, such as isotopes of Cobalt and Iodine, will get incoproated into the body where there radioactive decay can cause serious damage.


-Speaking of dust storms, even worlds subjected to heavy dust storms would probably have occasional taints rather than permanent ones.

It depends on the type of sand/dust. Even if you can't see it, the increased concetration may still be enough to damage your lungs. Ask the people near the evaporating Aral Sea.


-Long ago I wanted to incorporate a realistic nitrogen taint that would cause "the bends" if travellers changed altitude frequently after inhaling the atmosphere unfiltered. Now I do not believe this to be possible under any circumstances (other than the ones we Terrans are familiar with).

I think your right about this one. I think "the bends" comes from the rapid dissolution of gases from the blood. Bascially, going from a high pressure to low pressure environment. I guess if a Traveller stepped out of a ship with an atmospheric pressure of 100m deep into 1 atm he would get the bends.


[BTW other than heat and pressure, I have my doubts about "insidious" atmospheres. I imagine most if not all of the non-temp or pressure related worlds would just be exotic, irritant or corrosive.]

Would CO be insidiuos? It's a poison that can cause long term brain damage if subjected to constant low dose exposure. It's odorless and colorless as well.


I know this somewhat limits the agents that can cause a more-or-less worldwide taint, but IMHO unless a world has an exotic atmosphere the list will probably be short. I wonder if there might be more (I'm no expert!). If someone has a contradiction or other thought please feel free - a corrected mistake can be as useful as verification.
Nitric oxides make a lovely family of dangeruos taint compounds. They can arise from volcanic activity, industrial activity etc. These are not to be confused with nitrous oxide (N2O), which will also kill you by "suffocation" if you get to much but it will be far more pleasant.

I've always liked N2O as a taint. Basically (pun intended) reduction of nitrates by some microrganism produces N2O and this could be the source.

The SO2 taint you mention will give acid rain, i.e. rain drops with an acidic pH due to formation of H2SO4. I wouldn't call low O2 a taint, but high O2 can cause oxygen narcosis as well as making fires a big danger. H2S is deadly, deadlier than cyanide.

Just a brain dump and a quick reference to Cotton & Wilkison Advanced Inorganic Chemistry 4th ed. Used to work with Cyanogen, lovely stuff, its actually the impurities and that make it very dangerous. Never knew if you might lose an arm when you cracked the tank open. ;)

Welcome to CotI hydrozoa!
 
Thanks for the welcome and the excellent analysis Ptah! Both are greatly appreciated. I'm glad my little message stimulated some thought. This is a magnificent place!

I love the idea of a CO taint; IIRC it was the reason for the taint on one of the Sword Worlds (Gram?) and the reason was volcanism. Based upon my volcanological knowledge (passable but not IMO extensive) CO is a notable, but not a huge outgassing product (in fact, in every case of CO production, CO2 was present in higher concentrations). But your knowledge and points about its stability indicate that it could easily be an especially dangerous taint. I also especially like the H2S taint; not only is it a deadly gas (as you pointed out, deadlier than HCN!) but smells horrible and would make a seemingly garden world a miserable, and potentially deadly place (hold on to that filter mask a little tighter...)

CO presents a big problem in that (at least at the time of my experience) almost no masks will filter it out (I remember any time we dealt with carbon monoxide, SCBA was necessary). I could be wrong on that. ANyway, I myself would rule that any higher tech masks will filter CO (unless someone knows as fact that it cannot be filtered). I wonder about insidious atmospheres because in the far future (TL10+ ?) I imagine heat and pressure (and some very exceptional other causes, e.g. extremely high radiation) will be the most likely causes for failure of protective equipment. I do not include H2, though, as I believe that it would escape from a world rather than form a thick exotic atmosphere (perhaps a trace would exist, but that doesn't seem to me enough for an "insidious" atmosphere). The idea of a CO leak even in a merely tainted atmosphere is a terrifying thought however; no odor, quick incapacitation and death.

Cyanogen... I once read that this is one of the many components of a comet's "tail". Based upon my experience with hazardous chemicals, I'm sure it was real fun to play with that! ;) -and I know Cyanogen Chloride was a war gas. Very good point about the explosivity/flammability of many of these substances (their toxicity is well known, it seems their other dangers are not as readily discussed). As for HCN I'd imagine if there is just enough to be dangerous (but not so much that it's San Quentin) the world might not be a red zone, but would be pretty damn nasty nonetheless (A stern TAS alert about that little stop on the Spinward Main!). I have read (and heard) that HCN exposure will destroy most mask filters. I imagine in the far future that will not be the case, but for lower tech worlds is a consideration (does H2S do this as well???)

I like your point about low O2 not being a taint. THat would probably best be considered a type of exotic atmosphere that just had enough life to create some O2. The danger of fire on a high-O2 world could be a very interesting concern for travellers on an otherwise pleasant (all things considered) planet.

Nitrogen compounds...oops forgot to list those :rolleyes: Very glad you reminded me. You did teach me the fascinating bit about the microorganism-generated nitrous oxide (I love volcanism but it does get tiring if the ONLY causes are volcanism and infectious agents). It's nice when many plausible options exist.

Great point about the Aral Sea. After taking your direction and examining the (terrible) problem, I'm now convinced, and shall add suspended dust/particles to the list.

The danger after the first couple of years isn't so much from the stuff floating around but the radioactive isotopes (some with half lives reaching into the 1000's of years) in the water, soil, animals. Some isotopes, such as isotopes of Cobalt and Iodine, will get incoproated into the body where there radioactive decay can cause serious damage.
I still would call the fallout/residual radiation problem (isotopes) more an overall danger rather than an atmospheric taint. I can easily see a world with an atmosphere of standard non-tainted (code 6 in most traveller systems) with high levels of dangerous isotopes in the environment (plants, animal flesh and bone, soil, etc). For a few years after a war, the atmosphere (as you pointed out) would probably be coded "tainted" but gradually would return to non-tainted (just don't eat the plants!).

So I've got: infectious or otherwise dangerous microorganisms, toxic biological products (such as pollen, spores, etc), volcanic gasses (one, two or most likely a mix of SO2, nitrogen compounds, H2S, HCN, HCl, CO, CO2, ...), biologically-produced poisons or asphyxiant gasses (N2S, ...), suspended particulate matter (salts, ash, dust, ...) recent nuclear war products, high O2 levels, ...

The Twelve Days of Christmas, Traveller style!
 
All the info I've found about CO indicates that it wouldn't remain as CO in oxygen atmospheres for very long - it reacts with hydroxyl to form methane and ozone, and eventually oxidises to form CO2. It wouldn't exist naturally in large enough quantities to be a serious threat, at least not outside localised concentrations.

Personally, I treat 'low O2' as a taint. It's a deviation off the normal thin/standard/dense atmospheres that makes them unbreathable without assistance. Then again, the CT definition of atmospheres is somewhat murky at best - it seems to be based on the oxygen pressure (how breathable the air is) and not on the actual pressure of the atmosphere itself, which would be a lot more meaningful.
 
Perhaps I should add "low atmospheric pressure" as a taint rather than "low O2" then. But would this qualify as a "very thin" atmosphere in that case rather than a taint? Interesting thought TempMal, thanks for bringing that up!

So my initial suspicion about CO may be correct (I say that with an "oh darn" look; CO makes a great game taint, but if not possible in a world-wide or almost world-wide sence, it will have to go). I needed to clarify one thing - the self rescuer kits will temporarily filter certain concentrations of CO, in an extreme emergency circumstance (mine fire or explosion); there may be standard gas mask filters for CO but I personally cannot remember encountering any. Carbon monoxide Would definately be a localized or accidental danger for travellers in any case!

I'm currently wondering about ammonia. My inclination is no (as a taint in an otherwise inhabitable world). I'm pretty sure that it is produced by organic decomposition but if you have that much organic decomposition, I'd imagine you'd have organisms that utilize ammonia and it would not be found in large concentrations. I could be wrong on that, but it seems you'd have to change the rules of nature (what we know of them, of course, from our one planet...) to fit NH3 as a taint.

I noticed carbonyl sulfide as a minor constituent of the Earth's atmosphere (minor, but what struck me was that SO2 is listed at 0.2ppb by volume and COS at 0.5ppbv, actually a little more than SO2). Perhaps this could be another volcanic gas on the taint list...although I know only very basic information about COS.
 
On CO...some info that might address the amount and "how do you filter it problem"

Certainly CO eventually reacts with hydroxyl and removes itself from the atmosphere, but it is a slow process. A one-time emission of CO into the atmosphere won't give you a taint, but a semi-steady source can.

Here's a site that mentions it, as well as providing a nice list of taints. ;)
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/doetqp/courses/env440/env440_2/lectures/lec36/lec36.htm

The same reactions that remove CO from the atmosphere can be used to filter it. I imagine a filter would include an energy source to drive the reaction (earth uses the sun's photons) and a catalyst so the energy can be lowered.

If you search the internet for reactions make sure they are for the troposphere. The higher level of UV radiation in the stratosphere makes things a diffferent story. If you come across reations for CO, also look at the energy required. They are often endothermic and room temperature (less than 1 kcal/mole) is not enough to drive them.


Photons are the source of the energy of CO reactions. In the CO hydroxl reaction the UV phton creates the hydroxyl radical which is very reactive. Here's some rough guidelines:
Energy per one mole of photons at: 100nm = 290 kcal/mole. 400nm = 72 kcal/mole; 680nm = 42 kcal/mole. The 100 nm you'll find alot of in the strtaosphere (hard UV), what "UV" we get on the ground is more in the 400nm range, and 680 nm is a nice red. Not doing an extensive search

Just a neat and easy site:
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/Atmosphere/chemistry_troposphere.html
 
This is exactly the information that greatly enriches what already is IMO the greatest game of all time. Excellent links Ptah, thank you for those - I copied that first one for my Trav files
.

When I was considering CO as a possibility for the list, I imagined it would require a somewhat continual source and would vary widely in its hazard. Some years perhaps the taint is almost non-existant, while some years (heavy volcanic activity?) the world would be a deadly hellhole. No doubt a TL15-16 society could live there, but TL6? And after Virus came, and allowed CO to silently enter thousands of inhabitations (at night no doubt), you have some very bitter survivors indeed...all fifty of them.
 
hydrozoa,
Got pulled away on the last post, that real life thing. ;)

Wanted to say TempMal's point on hydroxyl is a good one to keep in mind. Hydroxyl is very reactive, so for a water containing atmosphere it is good source of reactions with whatever constiuents you may have.

A book I would highly recommend is Physics and Chemistry of the Solar System by John S. Lewis, Academic Press, 1995. It has a lot of detail, equations and references, but is still fairly readable by non-planetary scientists I believe.
 
Darn real life keeps interrupting Traveller fun, doesn't it?


Thanks for the book info - I recently came into a (very) little unexpected money and I'd like to grab a few books (including some chemistry and even astronomy books) - I'll look into that one.

And again, appreciate both of you (Ptah and TempMal) picking this up when I tossed this little part out there. To be honest, until I found this place I thought I was one of the last Travellers out there (we were once inseparable, now one of us is in the Solomani Rim, one was last seen on Ot Zell, another booked a High Passage to Vincennes, and I took off for Nulinad).
 
Back
Top