The Problem with the Zhodani

[daryen]

Instead of thread-jacking a different thread to talk about the Zhodani, I am making a whole new thread. Below recaptures what was said in the prior thread.

In this post Nathan Brazil said:

Then he went on to explain just how inimically evil the Consulate is to Imperial citizen's privacy, initiative, etc. Probably why wrote the Zhodani as particularly evil schemers in the one chapter of Agent of the Imperium.

To this I responded:

The Zhodani nobility guarantee status for themselves regardless of ability. Any highly capable recruits are kept in a non-noble subclass, despite being more capable than the vast majority of the nobility. They also prevent any kind of ability for non-recruits to get psionic training.

Proles have no political rights. They cannot vote. They have no input into their governing systems. They have no ability to raise their class (their kid might, but not them). They are not citizens, they are subjects. They are servants to the system, to be used and discarded as necessary. They are brainwashed and conditioned to accept the status quo. They are "happy" because they have no choice.

The Zhodani love to crow about how the "sanctity of the mind" as practiced by the Imperium is so evil. How their system removes that nonsense and allows the citizens to be happy. What they don't tell you is that every single noble practices "sanctity of the mind". Only the Proles have to submit. Zhodani nobles are every bit as private and subject to every single vice that afflicts the Imperium.

While they do an excellent job of hiding it, the Consulate is a corrupt society that disenfranchises the vast majority of its population and brainwashes them into accepting it. Zhodani nobles are the ultimate hypocrites that force their subject to live by one standard, while they live to a completely different standard. The Zhodani are, quite simply, intellectually dishonest. The truly sad part is they probably believe their own lies.

In response to that, Mike Wightman responded:

You and I disagree about the Zhodani. It is a much more benevolent society than the Imperium.

What political rights do citizens of the Imperium have for example? Last time I looked it was an authoritarian absolute monarchy with corruption, graft, greed etc running rampant.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The way I see it, the big "problem" with Zhodani society (writ large) is what happens when unequal power(s) are used to impose "order" without the (free willed) consent of the governed. However, that's only a "problem" when looked at from the point of view of an individual (pick one, any one) within the society looking "out" from that individual. When looked at from the whole of society end of things, it is perhaps a better collective society strategy than it is a meritocracy of the individual society.

For example, ant colonies on Terra are (recently, real world) starting to be recognized as "super organisms" because of how the colony of ants distributes functions among its individuals, such that you can't just study the ants individually in isolation and learn everything you need to know about the collective of the entire colony. Part of this has to do with a kind of "shared stomach" that ants have, which allows them to altruistically feed and share their immune systems. Best explanation for this phenomenon can be found here:

Along the same lines, the Zhodani "collective consciousness" ideal (the reality is different, I'm talking about the ideal here) is potentially an evolutionary advantage ... although it comes with the downsides associated with Groupthink which discourages innovation (and therefore, disruption of existing paradigms), which in turn impedes advancement. Not that it stops advancement, just merely impedes it ... until there is a collective investment into exploring a particular innovation (and its ramifications).

Since psionic power is not explicitly hereditary, I would not necessarily expect the Zhodani to be prone to what amounts to "dynasty founding" in which heredity (blood, family, etc.) is all that matters within the society. Instead, there would be a lot of "churn" in the hierarchy simply because the children of a powerful psionic might have little to no psionic potential themselves, meaning that a consolidation of wealth and power along lines of oligarchy become more difficult (not impossible, just not quite as straightforward).

So in some respects, the Zhodani Consulate is more of a meritocracy that the Imperium is ... in terms of individual merit trumping family history. However, at the same time, the weighting of the merits to be considered are heavily skewed towards psionic potential, perhaps too much so for the long term health and advancement of the society.

If the Zhodani Consulate shifted into a slightly more meritocracy based system where psionic potential is merely ONE of a collection of factors for social promotion and advancement, the society would be more likely to flourish due to being better able to make use of ALL of the skills of its people ... rather than merely the skills (and opinions) of the chosen few.

 

[daryen]

Mike Wightman complained my characterization of the Zhodani as evil is wrong because the Imperium is evil.

The evilness (for the lack of a better word) of the Zhodani has nothing to do with the Imperium. The Imperium could be jack-booted space totalitarians, they could be overflowing with space terrorists, or they could be a utopian nirvana. It doesn't matter, because the evil of the Zhodani has nothing to do with the Imperium. The Zhodani are evil because of lies they tell and what they do within their own borders.

A major problem with the Zhodani is that they are intellectually dishonest. They are hypocrites of the highest order. But even that stain is not why they are evil. The reason they are evil is because they enslave and dehumanize the vast majority of their own population. That's the problem in a nutshell.

They ritually, persistently, and comprehensively brainwash the Proles. Sure, the Proles are happy. It's because they have no choice! Whether they live in the lap of luxury, whether they are the lowest manure farmer, whether they are in charge of something, or they are the bottom rung of the totem pole, they are happy because they are forced to be happy. They have no agency, they are never allowed to gain agency, and then they are forced to not just wear a happy face and pretend to be happy, but they have to actually be happy. They literally do not have the agency, permission, or even the ability to be unhappy. You can even explain to a Prole what their situation really is, and they will not only not be upset and they might even agree with the assessment, but they will still be happy about the situation.

And, to further this stain on the collective Zhodani soul, the nobles blatantly demonstrate that what they do to the proles is wrong and horrible because they ensure it can't be done to them. For all of the complaints about non-Zhodani society, it needs to be pointed out that Zhodani nobles live exactly like every single non-Zhodani they complain about! They are free to be unhappy. They are free to have their own thoughts. They are free to plot, conspire, and keep secrets. They fully and gleefully practice the "sanctity of the mind" that they so vocally rail against. Zhodani nobles are extreme hypocrites who refuse to live by their own credo. Fundamentally, they are bald-faced liars about the society they run.

The very fiber of Zhodani society is corrupt to the extreme, and that is why the Zhodani are evil.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The Imperium could be jack-booted space totalitarians

Um, that's the Solomani ...?

The Zhodani are evil because of lies they tell

Everyone tells lies.
That's not a uniquely defining trait exclusive to the Zhodani Confederation.

The reason they are evil is because they enslave and dehumanize the vast majority of their own population.

Bear in mind that it wasn't that long ago in (real world) Terran history that enslavement and dehumanizing of populations was seen as a moral good and that it was righteous to pursue such policies.

What's disturbing in the number (and virulence) of people who want to GO BACK to those Good ol' Days in which slavery was both legal and unquestioned. After all, why pay people for their labors if you can simply OWN THEM as chattel property instead?

And, to further this stain on the collective Zhodani soul, the nobles blatantly demonstrate that what they do to the proles is wrong and horrible because they ensure it can't be done to them.

To be fair ... rules for them are not the same as rules for us ... tends to be a common refrain in almost ANY governing system, it just depends on where the line gets drawn.

Rules that apply to common people, but not to members of the ruling party, is a recurring theme throughout (real world) human history.
Why would you expect the Zhodani Consulate to be exempt from such a "natural consequence" of Whoever Has The Power Makes The Rules?

If wealth makes individuals powerful, then the wealthy live by different rules (and some would even go so far as to say, in different worlds) than the rest of us.
If psionic potential makes individuals powerful, then the psionically gifted are going to live by different rules than the rest of the population.
If hereditary lines make individuals powerful, then the noble families are going to live by different rules than the rest of the population.
There's nothing new about that factor with respect to human history.

Simplest example of this in our own human history on Terra was the time for centuries when it was the highest crime imaginable to actually kill a monarch (regicide) ... while killing "common folk" was so common that sometimes it wouldn't be remarked upon (or was even taken for granted in the "they had it coming" sense). Different "rules" for different classes of people, rather than having the same rules for everyone (murder is murder, whether it be a commoner or a king, in the eyes of the law).

They are free to be unhappy.

Mainly because they HAVE TO BE.

If Zhodani nobles were perpetually complacent, regardless of the circumstances, their society would collapse after the first disaster to befall them ... because the leadership was too complacent to respond effectively.

They are free to have their own thoughts.

Because they have to.
However, while they are free to have their own thoughts, they are also "responsible" for the thoughts of others in a way that binds them rather inexorably to a sense of duty and obligation (see: noblesse oblige).

Don't get me wrong, there are undoubtedly "parasites" within the Zhodani system that pervert the levers of powers to enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else ... but such efforts run into the "generational churn" problem in that particular families of an individual bloodline can't pull off such parasitic efforts indefinitely. The "can't pass it on directly" factor for eligibility to the noble class means that although such parasitic noble thinking may persist for a time, it won't last forever. That means that "selfish think" CAN BE overthrown in the Zhodani system by the next generation (although it won't always be). However, the odds of "selfish think" being able to entrench itself for multiple centuries as a persistent strain of thoughts and attitudes as the dominant mode is unlikely to be successful in the evolutionary long run ... for the same reason that over multiple generations, as an evolutionary selective trait, altruism tends to be more successful than being selfish at the expense of others.

Selfish think CAN WORK in the short term (until it fails) ... but altruistic think is more likely to be successful in the long term.

 

[Condottiere]

If you think about it, it's Huxley's Brave New World.

Less sex, though.

 

[Grav_Moped]

You can get to that same place by control of social- and mass-media. Not necessarily making everyone happy, but directing their unhappiness toward targets that don't threaten elite control. One can argue that the Third Imperium does this for itself (that is, in service of perpatuating the Imperial structure) with some degree of success.

(Pick your own examples. I'm not going to because that gets into politics.)

 

[Spinward Flow]

You can get to that same place by control of social- and mass-media.

Bingo!

 

[Grav_Moped]

Bingo!

Which is to say, the issue isn't psionic mind-control, it's oligarchy.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Which is to say, the issue isn't psionic mind-control, it's oligarchy.

Good thing there aren't any of THOSE anywhere in the Imperium!

Oh ... wait ... um ...

 

[mike wightman]

The Zhodani nobles care for the mental health of their citizens

The Imperium couldn't give a f£$k

The Zhodani raise the education of the intendent class to a minimum that makes them aware of what's going on

The Imperium couldn't give a f£$k

The Imperium imprison people without trial, the Imperium kidnap and experiment on sophonts, the Imperium imprison political prisoners and then manipulate the media.

 

[robject]

The reason they are evil is because they enslave and dehumanize the vast majority of their own population. That's the problem in a nutshell.

...They have no agency
...the nobles blatantly demonstrate that what they do to the proles is wrong and horrible because they ensure it can't be done to them.

I have to say, this is an eloquent and well-stated argument.
It's more than enslavement. It's a bondage of the will. The effect is scary bad.

The Zhodani nobles care for the mental health of their citizens

The Imperium couldn't give a f£$k

The Zhodani raise the education of the intendent class to a minimum that makes them aware of what's going on

The Imperium couldn't give a f£$k

The Imperium imprison people without trial, the Imperium kidnap and experiment on sophonts, the Imperium imprison political prisoners and then manipulate the media.

And this, a different kind of eloquence, but it's a good argument.

I'd go further and assume that there is brainwiping going on in the Third Imperium.


These positions need to be in canon somewhere.

 

[McPerth]

The Zhodani are evil because of lies they tell and what they do within their own borders.

A major problem with the Zhodani is that they are intellectually dishonest.

I fully disagree with you here. Lies mean intentional falsehoods, and the Zhodani, right or wrong, really believe what they say.

Fact is we can hardly understand their mentality, and their idea of good and evil is quite different from ours (more closer to Imperial views).

This was, among other things about the Zhodani, discussed in this old thread

 

[daryen]

Bear in mind that it wasn't that long ago in (real world) Terran history that enslavement and dehumanizing of populations was seen as a moral good and that it was righteous to pursue such policies.

And they were wrong. It is evil now, and was evil then.

 

[daryen]

I fully disagree with you here. Lies mean intentional falsehoods, and the Zhodani, right or wrong, really believe what they say.

They are intentional falsehoods. That they now believe their own lies doesn't change that.

The Zhodani nobles care for the mental health of their citizens

The Zhodani raise the education of the intendent class to a minimum that makes them aware of what's going on

The Imperium imprison people without trial, the Imperium kidnap and experiment on sophonts, the Imperium imprison political prisoners and then manipulate the media.

The Zhodani brainwash their subjects to keep them in line and call it "mental health." (Do not forget that the Proles are subjects. They are not, in any way, citizens.)

The Zhodani educate their subjects to make them useful. That far and no further. They don't actually care about their subjects beyond their utility.

The Zhodani imprison their subjects within their own minds. From birth to death. There is no escape, and no one is missed. They don't need to manipulate the media because they manipulate their subjects minds directly.

Their society is the ultimate distopia, where they have convinced their subjects it is actually a utopia.

 

[coliver988]

...
Their society is the ultimate distopia, where they have convinced their subjects it is actually a utopia.

But, if you truly believe it is a utopia, from your perspective, doesn't that make it one?

And there have been a few articles I've read over the years that do portray the Zhodani a lot less extreme, in that most of the people are never "brainswashed" or subject to that sort of process. I'll have to poke around to see if I can find them. But as I mentioned in an entirely unrelated thread, everything is relative. One of the articles I do recall said that all the info you have is really Imperial propaganda, that the society is a lot different than actually portrayed. And yes, that could have been Zhodani propaganda

 

[daryen]

But, if you truly believe it is a utopia, from your perspective, doesn't that make it one?

Let me put it this way: is the Matrix any less terrible if you don't know you are in the Matrix? I imagine there are many that would argue for each side.

Besides, I am not really talking about the Proles. It's the nobles who are the evil ones who instigate and perpetuate the system. The Proles are just more innocent bystanders and victims. And the nobles do know the truth (at some level) and what they are doing to the Proles.

My guess is that Zhodani nobles don't really think of the Proles as fully "people" and consider them to simply be either clever animals or, at best, little children who aren't able to ever grow up. Proles are just a good workforce that also occasionally produce a "real person". So, there is no problem messing with and violating their minds, as they are "real people" and no real harm can be done. What they have aren't really minds, just an inferior imitation.

 

[Spinward Flow]

And they were wrong. It is evil now, and was evil then.

The Zhodani imprison their subjects within their own minds. From birth to death. There is no escape, and no one is missed. They don't need to manipulate the media because they manipulate their subjects minds directly.

My guess is that Zhodani nobles don't really think of the Proles as fully "people" and consider them to simply be either clever animals or, at best, little children who aren't able to ever grow up. Proles are just a good workforce that also occasionally produce a "real person". So, there is no problem messing with and violating their minds, as they are "real people" and no real harm can be done. What they have aren't really minds, just an inferior imitation.

And ... that makes it official.
You have pulled a Jump The Shark on this topic with respect to the Zhodani.
Your mind is (obviously) closed, therefore further discussion of this topic serves little to no purpose.

That didn't take long at all.

 

[McPerth]

Pelase, limit attacks to ideas not to posters

 

[Spinward Scout]

One thing about dealing with the Zhodani I never could stomach.

All the damn Vampires. Psions.

 

[robject]

Mike and Michael's points are echoed in our literature. Brave New World. 1984. Logan's Run (had to put that in here).

The brainwashed proles never have to grow up. They are "happy". Is that the highest, noblest goal of any individual?

Similar to mind-wiped Imperial dissidents. They're now "well adjusted". Is that the point of civilization?

Is this really different in kind from Niven's droud?

Droud

A small device that plugs into the skull of a current addict. Its purpose: to give pleasure by delivering a precisely metered current flow to the pleasure center of the users brain.[1]

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