The Problem with the Zhodani

[mike wightman]

And they were wrong. It is evil now, and was evil then.

No, it wasn't evil then. There is no absolute good and evil, they are moral constructs. As a society evolves legal and moral systems their definition of good and evil changes. A tiger is not good or evil, the natural universe is not good or evil.

 

[mike wightman]

The Zhodani do not brainwash their citizens, they care for their mental health - cite me a canon source for this brainwashing.

 

[Condottiere]

You can play them like Star Trek Enterprise Vulcans, except that part about mind melds; those would be rather prevalent.

If you want to make it humourous, Lower Decks, specifically episode wej Duj.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The brainwashed proles never have to grow up. They are "happy". Is that the highest, noblest goal of any individual?

Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.

2 out of 3 isn't that bad ...

 

[McPerth]

Again, most of this was discussed in the thread I gave the ling before, a well in this other one, but as I understoand it takes some time to read them, I'll outline some of my arguments there:

The Zhodani nobility guarantee status for themselves regardless of ability. Any highly capable recruits are kept in a non-noble subclass, despite being more capable than the vast majority of the nobility. They also prevent any kind of ability for non-recruits to get psionic training.

As in most (if not all) societies: the powerful guarantee their status. The main difference, is that they are really trying to serve their population to their best ability, and graft and corruption is very rare (if not outright inexistent), as they are also watched by the TTavrchedl', as it is recognized their mental health may also fail

"Proles have no political rights. They cannot vote. They have no input into their governing systems.

While this is technically true, they have no political rights (again, as in many, if not most, societies for a part of their populations), they have strong input into their governing body, as the Taverchedle' informs this government bodies about the feeling of the people, and so they can try to fix the problems.

See that this input the governing body receives is far better than any poll other societies can do, as those are random scannings of peoples true thoughts and feelings...

"They have no ability to raise their class (their kid might, but not them). They are not citizens, they are subjects.

Again, as in many (if not most) societies (at least on a practical way, though in caste oriented societeies this may even be clearly stated).

"They are servants to the system, to be used and discarded as necessary.

The Zhodani don't use to discard anyone (at least without a good motive). While not citizens in the political rights ways, the proles have rights, and are cared for.

See that they use warbots because they believe robots to be expendable, while people (even proles) are not.

And while in combat, the most used (and probably suffering more casualties) units are the Consular Guards, where proles don't abound, to say the least...

"They are brainwashed and conditioned to accept the status quo. They are "happy" because they have no choice.

Proles are not rutinely brainwashed, at least not more than other societies do with propaganda, education and so.

Among other things, I don't believe they have the resources to do it ,even if they wanted to . But more important, they don't want to , as this would make a true stangnant society, and they are not.

Proles are watched, and random thelpathy scans are done (though I believe more as "polls", so to say, than to really control them). Of course, if they find out with what they see as mental illness, they offer help, but usually I don't eve nbleieve they took not e of who thinks what, just they try to keep a record of how society is feeling to detect the problems and be able to fix them.

But the Tavrchedl' also does those random scans among intendants and nobles, so the proles are not the only ones so watched.

Of course, they are more society oriented than individual oriented, be this good or bad (and this discussion would be done in the poll, if anyone intends to).

 

[Spinward Flow]

Proles are not rutinely brainwashed, at least not more than other societies do with propaganda, education and so.

Among other things, I don't believe they have the resources to do it ,even if they wanted to.

Think about it purely in terms of logistics.

Let's say, for the sake of argument and conversation, that 1 telepath is capable of brainwashing 99 other people and keeping them brainwashed. That's their JOB. That's the ONLY thing they do. Dedicated brainwashing of 99 other people ... for that telepath's entire lifetime. The 99 people that telepath is assigned to "cover" may rotate and change as there are births/deaths in the population during that telepath's lifespan, but during their lifetime, that's ALL they do ... all day, every day ... for their useful adult lifespan.

Oh and for reference, 1 Medic can be responsible for 120 Passengers (low/mid/high) on a starship, per LBB2 staffing rules ... so I'm thinking 1 telepath per 100 people (including the telepath) isn't an unreasonable assumption to begin with (and it keeps the math simple).

You're literally saying that you need 1% of the population (1 out of 100 people) dedicated exclusively to the job/task of "population pacification" via routine brainwashing of those other 99 people that each telepath is responsible for.

But wait, there's more ...

You then need a bureaucracy to govern/train/employ those telepaths who are doing all of that brainwashing so as to give them all their "marching orders" and answer the question of Who Watches The Watchers in this grand scheme of Mental Cleansing. That bureaucracy is probably going to need another 0.5% of the population, and the members of that bureaucracy are going to need to be more powerful telepaths than the "washers" they're overseeing.

To put that into perspective ... if the population of the United States in 2020 is assumed (for the sake of illustration purposes) to be 330 million people, that would mean that the number of people needed for this kind of telepaths+oversight bureaucracy system would require 1.5% of the total population be dedicated towards it ... which is 4.95 million people (call it 5 million for convenience).

So you're talking about needing 5 million telepaths and their "handler" organization.

For reference ... Walmart employs more than 2.3 million people around the world, and an estimated 1.6 million in the United States.
The United States Army, Navy, Air Force and National Guard combined have slightly under 1.5 million people on active duty.

So just to implement such a scheme in "only" the United States, with a population of 330 million people ... would require an organization 3x larger than all of the employees of Walmart in the United States ... or 3x larger than the active duty US Military.

Oh and the COST of implementing such a program won't be cheap, "free" or somehow "pay for itself" in some form or fashion. ALL of those telepaths are going to need to be PAID (somehow), not to mention the oversight organization. What kind of a budget line expenditure would be needed to sustain such an effort in perpetuity for multiple centuries?

In other words ... sustained, permanent, repeated, does not stop efforts at brainwashing an entire population is going to run out of 2 things VERY quickly.

1. Funding
2. Qualified Personnel

The sheer quantity of people needed to perform this function is simply daunting.
Some cities attempt to have 1 police officer per 1000 residents as their staffing goal.
The above is an attempt to have 1 telepath actively, repeatedly and routinely brainwashing people per 100 residents as the staffing goal.

Even in Zhodani space, there aren't going to be THAT MANY telepaths with the "goodthink" willingness to dedicate their lives to performing this one function for society to the exclusion of all else as their "calling" in life.

Additionally, those telepaths are going to need to be paid/bought off somehow so they don't turn against the state/their masters. They aren't going to keep working for Monopoly Money™ for too very long. They need to be well compensated for what they're doing ... and what they are doing isn't "directly productive" in a way that generates wealth within the world economy (which can then be skimmed for taxes to pay for their salaries and upkeep). There may be plenty of indirect vectors for what they are doing to improve economic conditions, but it's not like the "brainwashers" are producing a tangible material good/commodity which can be sold for a profit in a market somewhere.



My point being that such an effort is almost certainly doomed to failure, not for a lack of willingness to try, but simply due to the sheer logistics needed to keep such a scheme going in perpetuity being prohibitively expensive (in more way than one). The cost in people and resources needed for blanket coverage to actively brainwash EVERYONE in a population in perpetuity is simply unworkable. We're talking multiples of the national defense budget of the most powerful military nation in the world kinds of expenditures at that point. That's simply not sustainable in the long term.

Although it does bring new meaning to the term ... Social Worker ... I suppose.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Probably more of an issue of controlling the proletariat, and sniffing out the deviants, discontents and dissidents.

2. The Zhodani Dream having children that ascend to the bourgeoisie, becoming Mandarins.

3. You could invoke a birth limit on the nobility, lifetime children allowance being psionic points divided by two, three or four, which could motivate some to find the means to increase that, and open up slots for the bourgeoisie to socially climb.

 

[robject]

The Zhodani do not brainwash their citizens, they care for their mental health - cite me a canon source for this brainwashing.

This is true... their charge is to make people content, not to change them utterly.

On the other hand, it is also utilitarian, not unlike a Droyne caste system. They need public phone cleaners, and so they'll make sure you're utterly content being a telephone sanitizer.

 

[Condottiere]

No wonder the Empress Wave becomes so existential; they'll discard a third of their population and get hit by a Virus that wipes them out.

I recently heard one opinion that caste makes economies efficient (and (en)rich(ed)).

 

[Fovean]

I always thought Zhodani mental “adjustments” were only for those suffering sociopathic or psychotic tendencies; the proles were basically free to be themselves but if dangerous behavior was detected it was stamped out immediately.

More of a deterrent than anything. Thus the Nobles and intendants and T’varchedl or what have you have an unsavory and unhappy responsibility to society at large. A sort of “crying killer” situation where they must be regretfully cruel for the greater good.

 

[daryen]

No, it wasn't evil then. There is no absolute good and evil, they are moral constructs. As a society evolves legal and moral systems their definition of good and evil changes. A tiger is not good or evil, the natural universe is not good or evil.

There is a difference between a person enslaving another person and denying their basic humanity and a tiger hunting, killing, and eating prey. If there isn't a difference, then obviously there is literally no common ground on which to try and discuss this.

And if someone believes that enslaving people and denying their basic humanity is defensible, then they can knock themselves out. Again, at that point the lack of any kind of common frame of reference makes discussing that idea extremely difficult if not impossible.

This is true... their charge is to make people content, not to change them utterly.

You don't have to change them utterly to remove their agency. If you make someone happy to be a toilet cleaner, maybe they would have been anyway. But, by making them happy to be a toilet cleaner, you have removed the chance for them to be happy doing something else. They didn't choose that; it was chosen for them. And that is completely removing their agency.

Besides, when I say they are brainwashed, I am not saying their entire being has been changed. (Unless it becomes absolutely necessary.) They simply remove the pieces of the person they don't like and force them to be happy with their role, irrespective of what it is. That is a loss of agency, even if they are fundamentally almost the same person they would have otherwise been.

But the Taverchedle' also does those random scans among intendants and nobles, so the proles are not the only ones so watched.

No, they don't do random scans among intendants and nobles. Because they can't do random scans as every single Zhodani psion has a telepathic shield. Now, you can still do forced scans, sure. But random scanning just isn't going to accomplish anything with a Zhodani psion. (This is, ironically, especially true for intendants, as they must have a very high psionic rating to even be an intendant.)

Think about it purely in terms of logistics.

The logistics are irrelevant.

The main way they take care of things is to use the social engineering everyone else in this discussion is talking about. It is highly effective, and the Zhodani are going to be ridiculously good at it. That will cover the vast majority of their population and they only need to get truly "hands on" with the exceptions. The brainwashing isn't just psionic, as it doesn't need to be. The psionics just makes sure that whatever methods they use are highly effective, and they always have the slam-hammer of direct psionics when needed.

But, ignoring all of my other complaints, even if you put the best light on things possible, it is still the case that the Zhodani nobles treat proles like marginally competent children who can never truly grow up and will never truly be trusted. And the proles still don't really have any agency.

Finally, I want to point out that my complaints about Zhodani society are to say they are better or worse than any other human society. Every human society has humans with power who try increase their power at the expense of everyone else and, when successful, make life for most people suck. But, for example, just because Imperial society sucks doesn't mean anything about Zhodani society. Zhodani society needs to be evaluated on its own. And the fact that Zhodani nobles still do everything that they complain about Imperials doing kinda helps make the point.

 

[McPerth]

About the Tavrchedl', I guess we have two problems to understand them: our own vision on the Police and Orwell's 1984 idea about what thought police is there.

IMHO, one of the ways to try to understand Traveller careers (and so their meaning) is to look at the skills they may receive while on them. If you look at the MOS table for the Thought Police in CT:AM4, you'll find no combat skills, all of them being interpersonal ones (telepathy included in this definition). so I deduce from it that they don't use force, as our vision of police do.

About the proles, again looking at CharGen, the may enter all the careers (except Guards in basic Chargen, but they can in Mercenary system), and have not limited their advancement in rank except in the government career.

That means a prole may well become an Admiral or General in he Consulate. IMHO again this is quite opposite to being considered just subjects without rights (when not outright slaves) or just menial laborers, as some seem to believe......

 

[McPerth]

No, they don't do random scans among intendants and nobles. Because they can't do random scans as every single Zhodani psion has a telepathic shield. Now, you can still do forced scans, sure. But random scanning just isn't going to accomplish anything with a Zhodani psion. (This is, ironically, especially true for intendants, as they must have a very high psionic rating to even be an intendant.)

Can you please quote me your sources for this statement?

Mine are CT:AM4 page 14:

Thought Police monitors all of Zhodani society

No reference to only proles, as you can see...

You're right anyone with psi shielding would be more difficult (at least) to scan, but only if their shields are "up". I know the definition says it's always in force and does not require psi points to be so, and that it's used to "keep out distracting influences when engaged in prionic activity", but my guess (not supported by written material AFAIK, it's true, just how I interpret their psychology, YMMV) is that when not needed, they usually "down" it as proof they have nothing to hide.

Zhodani nobles treat proles like marginally competent children who can never truly grow up and will never truly be trusted.

I was writing my one post when you wrote this, but the fact a prole may reach Staff rank in its military seems not to support your statement here...

And the proles still don't really have any agency.

Again, can you tell me your sources?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I always thought Zhodani mental “adjustments” were only for those suffering sociopathic or psychotic tendencies; the proles were basically free to be themselves but if dangerous behavior was detected it was stamped out immediately.

That is an "optimistic interpretation" compared to my perception. Let's look at the text from the original GDW Alien Module:

The end result is that occasionally a Prole will sit awake late at night, depressed and angry. Some aspect of society has affected him adversely, and he has been unable to cope with it. Perhaps he lost his old job and is unhappy with his new one; perhaps he is jealous of a neighbor who is more successful than he is. The thought patterns spell deviance, and roving Thought Police patrols pick them up. Late at night, there is a knock at the door. The Prole knows the Thought Police have arrived; he invites them in. They enter, talk quietly or loudly depending on what their quick diagnosis indicates. After a few minutes, the Prole leaves with the Thought Police. A note is left behind telling where they have gone. Already, the Prole feels slightly better knowing that someone cares.
A few days or weeks later, the Prole returns home, much happier. His new job is exactly what he needs and wants; a perfect outlet for his ambitions. His successful neighbor, he now knows, leads a shallow life without the enjoyment and fulfillment that it should have. The world itself seems brighter and clearer. - pg. 14 Zhodani Traveller Alien Module Four

To those in other countries (I'm American), apologies. YMMV depending on how your society treats mental health and the balance of rights and obligations the individual and society have to each other. My time spent in a ward inform my opinion. OTOH, what do I know? Even with meds, some people still say I'm crazy

Not just the psychotic, or sociopathic. Unable to cope? Unhappy with a job? Jealousy? For most of us this is called real life. The intervention by the Tavrchedl' monitoring mental health down to this level of granularity. Note the drill down to what level of "deviance" requires intervention. The Prole is not given the freedom to find their own path. More importantly, the second solution. How does he KNOW his neighbor lives a shallow, unfulfilling, joyless life? If this is true, have the Thought Police failed in their mission with the neighbor, or they just have not gotten to him yet?

In our time, intervention comes when your thoughts turn themselves into actions of harm to others or self-harm. Otherwise you are free to do as you wish as best you can. In my life experiences with my mental health, I have been taught that blaming others for my disquiet is not the solution in itself. We cannot force changes on others, we can only change ourselves, whether by mentally accepting the situation or making an societally acceptable change in one's own circumstances. Sometimes medicine helps get you to a place where you can start learning.

 

[whartung]

His new job is exactly what he needs and wants; a perfect outlet for his ambitions. His successful neighbor, he now knows, leads a shallow life without the enjoyment and fulfillment that it should have.

I'm sorry, but there's a couple of things at play here.

There's nothing to say that his "new" job isn't identical to his "old" job. All it says is that his new job is, essentially, exactly what he wants and desires. There's nothing to suggest that he wasn't treated in a way to like the new job. While one can read that during his time away, the Thought Police police did intensive work to find out what he "really" wanted and found him the right job. But it seems unrealistic. In theory, given their powers (and I don't know, just s'posin') it's easier to groom them for a job they have available than to find a job that suits him to a tee.

And if the latter is the case, that's another black mark against the Prole's agency.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

 

[McPerth]

Not just the psychotic, or sociopathic. Unable to cope? Unhappy with a job? Jealousy? For most of us this is called real life.

True (unfortunately), and some `people endures it without problem, while others break down and commit suicide. with most people in between... Many people are taking antidepresive meds for such situations....

His new job is exactly what he needs and wants; a perfect outlet for his ambitions. His successful neighbor, he now knows, leads a shallow life without the enjoyment and fulfillment that it should have.

See that this can mean that he's convinced (conditioned) to like the available job, or that once his true wishes and ambitions are known, they find for him the optimal job for him.

In our societies, there are jobs considered more prestigious, and people is encouraged to look for them, many times disregarding what they wouild really like, and so we have people with good profesional success in prestigious jobs they don't really like. Sure the Zhodani avoid it.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The Zhodani don't use to discard anyone (at least without a good motive). While not citizens in the political rights ways, the proles have rights, and are cared for.

See that they use warbots because they believe robots to be expendable, whiel people (even proles) are not.

Zhodani really know what death is like. Through telepathy, they can experience it almost first-hand -- and either as part of end-of-life rituals, or inadvertently during supervision of combat operations, this happens more often than one might like.

It's no wonder they use robots in combat.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall Nineteen Eighty Four, the guys on top can temporarily switch off monitoring devices.

In terms of actual policing, probably only have to keep an active eye on the middle management bourgeoisie.

For the proletariat, more of a question of herding and culling.

 

[aramis]

Mike and Michael's points are echoed in our literature. Brave New World. 1984. Logan's Run (had to put that in here).

The brainwashed proles never have to grow up. They are "happy". Is that the highest, noblest goal of any individual?

Similar to mind-wiped Imperial dissidents. They're now "well adjusted". Is that the point of civilization?

Is this really different in kind from Niven's droud?

Droud

A small device that plugs into the skull of a current addict. Its purpose: to give pleasure by delivering a precisely metered current flow to the pleasure center of the users brain.[1]

larryniven.fandom.com

A good bit.
Most of the Taverchedl's patients are voluntary.
They know that they will be made no longer mentally ill. They will have the needed retraining to be productive; if need be, they'll be found a different line and place of work. Most of the time, it's not psychic surgery. Sometimes it's just telepathy aided psychotherapy. Sometimes, it's just making the needed reassignments. And sometimes, it's just a case of "It's ok to feel sad right now, Things will get better. If they don't, we can explore the options."

Note also, AM Zhodani is clear that even the nobles are subject to the Taverchedl. As are the Taverchedl.

They see mental illness as comparable to cancer. Their threshold is far lower than the 3I...

 

[mike wightman]

There is a difference between a person enslaving another person and denying their basic humanity and a tiger hunting, killing, and eating prey. If there isn't a difference, then obviously there is literally no common ground on which to try and discuss this.

And if someone believes that enslaving people and denying their basic humanity is defensible, then they can knock themselves out. Again, at that point the lack of any kind of common frame of reference makes discussing that idea extremely difficult if not impossible.

We are products of a western liberal democracy and have personal indoctrination shining through our personal beliefs. Slavery has been an accepted, even encouraged, practice for the whole of human history. Did the Romans consider slavery evil? No.
Did the warlords and kings of Africa consider slavery evil? No.
Did the European feudal system consider keeping people as slaves/serfs as evil? No.

Check the bible, the old testament tells us how to treat our slaves and in the new testament even Jesus recognises that slavery exists and doesn't condemn it as evil.

Considering slavery to be evil is something that the moral revolution in Great Britain started, we abolished it, and then, due to massive military superiority at the time, stamped it out across our empire and then 'encouraged' others to do the same. The slavers of Africa, the plantations of America and the Caribbean etc did not consider themselves as evil. We look back and consider it evil because our western liberal democracy moral code has changed over time.

I have to be very careful to keep this historical, I would just suggest you go and do some research on modern slavery.