The real ACR

[mshensley]

Man, I want one of these-
http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm

 

[WendellM]

As I clicked on the link and it loaded, I was thinking, "what's the big deal, it's just gonna be another rifle like..all...the..... oh, wow, is that a cool looking weapon!"

I don't care what reason they give for it not going into production - it's clear that the real reason is that it's just too cool for today's pre-TL10 battlefield.

Thanks for the heads-up, mshensley - I don't follow real-world small arms, so seeing something straight out of Traveller (and the movies Aliens and Starship Troopers) actually taking shape from the late 70's through the early 90's made my day.

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Wendell (IMTU tc++ tm !tn !t4 !tg ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt- au ls+ he)

[This message has been edited by WendellM (edited 23 March 2002).]

 

[mshensley]

Make sure that you don't miss the video of the G11 in action. Also, they were planning to do an LMG version-

http://www.hkpro.com/g11lmg.htm

and a pistol version-

http://www.hkpro.com/g11pdw.htm

Although those apparently never got past the design stage.

Also, be sure to check out the CAWS (Close Assault Weapon System) made famous in Fallout 2. This is a full auto assault shotgun, really handy for boarding spaceships-

http://www.hkpro.com/CAWS.htm

[This message has been edited by mshensley (edited 23 March 2002).]

[This message has been edited by mshensley (edited 23 March 2002).]

 

[Uncle Bob]

Here is another real ACR (it was in competition with the G11 for the US Army's Advanced Combat Rifle program. It even fired sort-of an APDS roundhttp://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/acr/acr.htm

here are some other toys, first the FN2000 from FN of Belgium http://world.guns.ru/assault/as41-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as30-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as26-e.htm

And here is a toy that Traveller never imagined, the Objective Infantry Combat Weapon
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm

my own page is a bit dated, http://pages.sbcglobal.net/blyle/small.htm

[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 24 March 2002).]

 

[mshensley]

Hmmm... 20mm exploding bullets? Get rid of the 5.56mm part and you have the space marine bolter from warhammer 40k.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Unfortunately, that 20mm works against level II armor, but not level III. This means it is pretty near useless against CE suits.
More details: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/strobush.pdf
And non-lethal ammo: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/sanchez.pdf

And lots of fun, The Objective Force Warrior http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/shisler.pdf

 

[Fulacin Highport]

I always had a soft spot for this little bangstick:

Data: http://www.att-tactical.com/Pancor.html

Gaming use: http://www.nma-fallout.com/tactics/items/Pancor_Jackhammer.shtml

Adapted for RCES use: http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/vera/vera7103.html

Do take note that the Pancor would have a higher R-O-F due to the interchangable drum magazines.... full-auto combat shotguns, after some rapid-fire usage, *can* melt the plastic-shelled rounds that are being chambered.... not a problem with the drum-feed design.

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Joe Brown

 

[mshensley]

Wow, I didn't know that the Pancor Jackhammer was a real gun! That was another cool gun in Fallout 2.

Hmmm, someone should do a Fallout D20 game. That would be awesome!

[This message has been edited by mshensley (edited 26 March 2002).]

 

[Uncle Bob]

Remember the Atchisson machine shotgun from The Morrow Project? Daewoo bought it. http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh16-e.htm

For shotguns I like the Neostadt. Its a pump action that feeds from two tubular magazines (ea 6 rd), so you can change ammo types by flicking a switch. And it bottom-ejects, so it is an ambidetrous design. http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh08-e.htm

BTW, if my posting these pictures is csausing a problem for anyone's browser, let me know.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 26 March 2002).]

 

[Murph]

Well, they are ACRs. But I see things going more the way that Jerry Pournelle described, a larger, more powerful round (6-7mm) to defeat personal armor. Perhaps a 30mm grenade or 40mm HEDP would work as well. 20mm is just too small.

 

[Uncle Bob]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Murph:
Well, they are ACRs. But I see things going more the way that Jerry Pournelle described, a larger, more powerful round (6-7mm) to defeat personal armor. Perhaps a 30mm grenade or 40mm HEDP would work as well. 20mm is just too small.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, Pounelle's 7mm was deliberately "retro". A full bore round of 7-8mm can't penetrate armor much better than a 5.56mm with similar bullet construction and they kick a lot more. The guys over on Tanknet who say it can are talking about 7mm magnum APs at 1100 m/s and the improvment over 5.56mm SS109 is really rather modest for a big, heavy weapon that kicks like a mule.

Once significant body armor is in the equation you're looking at APDS/APFDS or HEAP, probably from a 7-9mmn barrel. That sounds familiar...

The 20mm barrel airbust HE is good for irregulars without body armor or for dispersing (non-lethal?) chemical agents. I have even seen "sting-ball" projectiles discussed, and the bore is big enough to accomodate one of the adaptive homing projectils the Air Force is developing.

If you like a bigger grenade, there is the 5.56/35mm PAPOP. Never thought you'd go frog on me, Murph.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 29 March 2002).]

 

[WendellM]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uncle Bob:

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, why is that soldier holding a briefcase in the firing position?

The smooth, enclosed casings used by the other "ACR"s is cool and all, but this is a bit overboard, don't you think... (oh, and thanks for all the cool pics, Uncle Bob).



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Wendell (IMTU tc++ tm !tn !t4 !tg ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt- au ls+ he)

 

[tanstaafl2300]

Ref: the Objective Infantry Combat Weapon, 20mm HE

The weapon has the ability to set the range for detonation also. Use the laser to designate the wall the target is behind, adjust for an extra 2-3 feet and raise the aim to just over the hieght of the wall, and bam the round explodes over the obsticle and right over the unprotected head of the target. Works great in urban enviroments, setting them to enter a doorway or window and then explode just inside so as to clear the entranceway. Or if your really good you could do the same with fireing slots in bunkers or just barely open armor hatches. God I love being in the Army.

 

[tanstaafl2300]

Also the .223 rifle and the 20mm are able to seperate and operate as indipendent weapons. The .223 needs a stock, and the 20mm a trigger group but they can easily be carried in a ruck for use in emergencies. The whole thing is just a bit big though. With the addition of the heads up display on the helmet you can shoot around corners or over protective cover as well as sending a image of what you see to the commander or anyone watching so that Private schmedlap can give an acurate SALUTE report.

 

[Uncle Bob]

The frags from the 20mm is supposed to penetrate PASGT armor, which is generally acepted as equivalent to NIJ level II. It may not defeat IIIA and won't defeat level III or IV armor like the hard inserts in interceptor armor. Today IIIA is common in drug gangs as far away as Thailand. Peripheral wounds may still be disabling, but it ain't a silver bullet.

I do like the OICW. I do not like the M4 except for special ops, but a M16A3 (flat-top receiver without the three shot ratchet and with a 50cm barrel) with TI and helmet sight wouldn't be bad.

 

[Prometheus]

Uncle bob sounds like a old M16A1 kinda guy rock and roll on full auto....just joking.. honestly the three shot burst selector on the A2 is a bad joke.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I prefer the sights and 1 in 7 twist on the M16A2. I wouldn't mind the three shot burst if the ratchet didn't change the trigger pull for every shot. *grumble*

And a "shorty" like the M4 or G36 isn't much good beyond 100m. *grumble*

Time for my medicine.

 

[justacaveman]

Military weapons are all designed around the "average" soldier. From a military point of view 3 rd burst ammo conservation is a higher priority than full-auto capability for assault rifles. I know that the U.S. Army spent a lot of time trying to teach ammo conservation, just to have troops blow most of a magazine at the first thing that popped up.

 

[themink]

We use the AusSteyr. It's absolutely beautiful - Everyone has seen the picture of the normal styer - The AusSteyr is a lovely green color (Why make weapons that aren't already cam?) is light, accurate, short, easy to use and clean, reliable and fun.

All in a pretty package.

The Carbine has a tighter twist than the full length variant and is more accurate upto 300m!

All this and it comes with a free set of steak knives.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Yeah, but you can't fire it from the left shoulder without dissasembling it. No problem in the field, not so good in the city if you want to shoot around the left side of a building.

Besides, IIRC, didn't it have a series of problems a few years back...I hear they fixed that though.