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The real ACR

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Yeah, but you can't fire it from the left shoulder without dissasembling it. No problem in the field, not so good in the city if you want to shoot around the left side of a building.
No one's yet mentioned the FN F2000, the first bullpup rifle I know of designed to solve that problem without switching over to caseLESS [edited] ammo. The cases are dumped forward at low velocity through a port near the muzzle. (And it takes four or five shots before the cases start coming out of the tube, which will make it a lot easier to police your brass on the range.)

It also has a very nice range of option add-ons (grenades, non-lethal pellets, laser, etc.) all nicely integrated into the structure.
F2000 Rifle
F2000 Modules
 
The FN2000 looks sexy (see page 1 this thread for a picture). I just imagine those brownish cylinders pushing out the hole and am glad I'd be at the other end...
file_22.gif


More seriously I worry about the ejection tube getting dinged.

But it wasn't quite the first try. The HK G11 and the FN P90 used bottom ejection, but to do that the magazine has feed from the top. To clear the shooters sight the mag has to be parallel to the barrel and the cartridges have to rotate through 90o. Both use short cartridges, and while the G11 only has to eject misfires I hear the P90 has had jams in the magazine.
 
I had not heard that th P90 had a big jamming problem.

I think it might be the Sexiest of all the new weapons coming out though. Although I had hopes for the HK G11.

Capt. Blacklight
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
The FN2000 looks sexy (see page 1 this thread for a picture). I just imagine those brownish cylinders pushing out the hole and am glad I'd be at the other end...
file_22.gif


More seriously I worry about the ejection tube getting dinged.

But it wasn't quite the first try. The HK G11 and the FN P90 used bottom ejection, but to do that the magazine has feed from the top. To clear the shooters sight the mag has to be parallel to the barrel and the cartridges have to rotate through 90o. Both use short cartridges, and while the G11 only has to eject misfires I hear the P90 has had jams in the magazine.
(There was an F2000 picture in this thread? Can't find it)

I meant to write "without switching over to caseLESS ammo" (not cased), which leaves out the G-11. And the P90 isn't a rifle; FN markets it now as a submachinegun.

The shell tube in the F2000 apparently isn't a tight fit, so there's some leeway for trouble. But I agree that there is some potential for getting it blocked in some way or other. Given how tough FN built the housing on the F2000, I'd bet debris is a more likely candidate than a dent, but it is an issue.

I'm not entirely surprised at reports of P90 magazine jams. Turning the rounds through 90 degrees seems an inherently tricky operation. But I've talked to floks who've had no trouble with it at all. Given that the Secret Service has bought soeveral hundred recently, I assuem it's been resolved. Might be a difference between early and late magazine designs.

I confess that I love the look and feel of the P90. I had chance to handle one a couple of weeks ago (no live fire, though) and it goes to the shoulder totally naturally. That thumbhole stock looks odd, but it works instinctively when you pick the gun up. Good gun for close quarters work. MTU needs a gauss PDW along the same lines.
 
4th post, by me, including this picture.
f2000_3.jpg


That grip looks a lot like a P90. I was suspiscious, but I am pleased to hear it works well.

I envy you, sir. And I agree the P90 is only a SMG (I think that is how FN markets it now). The 5.7x28 is a hell of a pistol round, but it ain't in a class with even the 5.45x39 or 5.56x45.

A Five-Nine isn't much different from an auto pistol, but it does suggest where pistols and SMGs will go at TL 9-10.
 
Re Firing the Styer left handed -

We put a latch on the ejection port - normally it didn;t affect anything - but you could click it up and it redirected the spent round upwards (so you didn;t cut your cheek open)

It worked - but the extra sidways kick made range shooting tricky. It was loud and the ejected round went close to straight up which made you easy to spot.

It's not a mod that ever went through the channels and I don't imagine it would ever be a standard change.

The main difficulty was keeping the latch on the weapon - 1,000 mile an hour tape was what we used, but it had the habit of coming off after you had been firing it for a while.

Since most of the firing we were doing in built up areas used blanks I'm not sure how badly accuracy would have been affected.

Another problem with the left handed firing was cocking the sucker - reaching over the top of the weapon is not a clever thing to do while trying to stay prone.

But it's still a lovely bang stick -

Then the Aust Army chose the minimi as a supprot weapon. I was gobsmacked that they could have been so stoopid after making such a good call with the steyr.

(another down point of the steyr - the sniper version that we used had a demountable sight - notorious because you had to re-sight the weapon whenever you changed sights. I suppose the theory was that you wouldn't be swapping sights - but we had a nightsight and a day sight seperate - should have had two seperate weapons - but that gets clumsy)
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
4th post, by me, including this picture.
f2000_3.jpg


Ah. That shows up as a dead link on both computers I use.


A Five-Nine isn't much different from an auto pistol, but it does suggest where pistols and SMGs will go at TL 9-10.
Perhaps, though there is a lot of resistance to the very small bore idea. Ergonomically, the F2000 and P90 are on to something, but I don't think it's a given that they will all migrate to anything as small as 5.7mm for pistols and SMGs.
 
Originally posted by The Mink:
[QB]Then the Aust Army chose the minimi as a supprot weapon. I was gobsmacked that they could have been so stoopid after making such a good call with the steyr.
[QB]
So what's wrong with the Minimi? Asuming you don't believe the propaganda about using rifle magazines, it seems like a pretty solid belt-fed squad automatic weapon. The British Army seems to be on the verge of adopting it to replace the unfortunate LSW.
 
It's been 6 years (ish) since I used it but - from memory - We used to have problems where loose link would jam the thing so tightly that you couldn;t clear it by hand. We had to wrap the sling arround the cocking handle, place your foot in the sling and "kick" it clear.

Needless to say that once you had done this a couple of times it would jam much more often (the result of precussve maintainance)

It was also way to accurate and had a high rate of fire - so it wouldn't "beat" an area like our trusty pig, instead it would kill the same tree a couple of times. (Yes I called an M60 trusty - ours were 20 years old, were swimming in so much oil that dirt would travel interstate just to be near it and worn down to threadbare -> But they were more reliable than the minimi !)

Of course the accuracy was a plus against very long range targets if you didn't want to put alot of rounds down range - In theory it was more accurate than our steyrs but I never used it enough to confirm that.

Our establishment called for 2 minimi per section which forced us into a "two foot" fire and movement - whereas the beaten zone of the M60 gave it much more of a support role.

Upside Minimi- fired the same round as the rifles - good for resupply if you where happy moving rounds between link and mags

Having whinged about it, we generally used 4-5 man teams and generally just took steyrs (plus the odd GL). If we were moving into an ambush position, 5 men was either 2 Karl Gustav's or 2 det racks depending on the likely target.

I loved being armoured corp - 11 ton Echy bags - carry more gear than a ships locker and it can follow you arround a field. We had M113's with 30/50 Turrets - it meant our MG's tended to be discounted.
 
A neat trick with the ejector. I have a friend over on Tanknet who has proposed setting a bullpup to eject straight up with a dust cover/deflector that can be opened right or left as needed.

Curiouser and curiouser. I have heard of no jamming problems with the M249 (US Minimi), but I have heard some muffled whines about excesive dispersion. Sounds like manufacturing diferences between Australia and the USA.

On the other hand, there was a collective sigh of relief when we swapped the M60s for M240s (MAGs). I have talked to an infantry officer from the early 1960s who liked them, but they were proanely condemned by every American who served with them in the 1970s and 1980s for feed problems, misfires and the heavy quickchange barrel.
 
And for general use and abuse weapons, nothing beats the AK family. The AK-100 series looks to be a good addon to Kalashnikov's venerable assault rilfe.
 
Reverend sir, we are discussing the RW equivalent of Traveller TL 6-8 equipment. I fail to see where "Random Static" is more appropriate than "Ships Locker".

Were there a "Combat", "Striker", or "Mercenary" forum this thread would be better moved there, but there ain't, so it can't.
 
Re-lefties and brass ejection, dosen't the FA-MAS have a reversible cheek plate and an ejector port on both sides of the action? Whichever side the plate is on it blocks the port on that side and deflects the brass through the other port and away from the firer?
 
Originally posted by GJD:
Re-lefties and brass ejection, dosen't the FA-MAS have a reversible cheek plate and an ejector port on both sides of the action? Whichever side the plate is on it blocks the port on that side and deflects the brass through the other port and away from the firer?
Yup, but it takes partial disassembly of the weapon. Good enough to accomodate lefties in general, but no good if you are switching from right-to-left and back again to take advantage of cover. The only bullpups that will do that are the G11 and the FN2000.
 
I would like to weigh in on this for some education. First I love the M4 ( my weapon currently issued). First question is what does the forum think is a good caliber for the ACR? Second, is it the electronic enhancement(ie the (sighting/visual enhancement) does that makes it truly the ACR? Last the 20mm addition to the weapon system is it really going to be that functional?

Please, someone enlighten me as to what a truely ACR concept is?
 
well, heres two cents worth.. i just know i will get kicked in the teeth for this!

we are all being free with our notions here, so i will say I respect every one s opinion her, but I think ya'll are missin a point or two:

Uncle Bob... agreed, the M60 isnt the best, but i found that with attentive maintenace on the part of the shooter, they did ok. Heavy? yep, but the mag is no light weight either (and I agree, it is the better weapon)

shooting from the left is less an issue of making the weapon a new way as much as the soldier either shifting position or adopting better cover or adapting to his weapon... geez!

The whole M16/ assault riifle- battle rifle argument- well, i served as a sniper and have had the misfortune of humping every weapon known to man at one point- all have their pros and cons.

personally, anybody tells me a weapon is too heavy (and I have humped and prefered FN FAL, M14 and M70 in prefernce to a lighter cal. weapon), well , I am an eliteist. Obvoiusly, they need to look for work in a proffesion that doesnt require physical fitness. Otherwise, screw em... bad troops make great targets, believe me.

IMHO, the modern trend seems to be to make a gun that soldiers for the soldier, and all that high tech, gun-the-size-of-a-house , multiplex ammo and gee whiz optics doesnt compare to one Afghan that can shoot a 40 year old enfield. Ask the Russians, or the 'Nam vets... they all learned better.

These practical lessons have been forgotten in the more recent years non-wars, and the trend artists and theorists are all about the new soldier, you know the guy... he's the human that is there to reload the damn gun!

Rather a focus on marksmanship and fundementals, while niether trendy nor glamorous, will be the answer to all these ills, coupled with a weapons system that eshews the niceties for good accuracy and excellent reliability- my prefernce for an assault rifle is hands down the AK, for this very reason. Barring that, there are several battle rifles up to the task... G3 and FN FAL being only two, but these I personally like.

To my thinking the weapon of the future will likely be more compact than large, perhaps have a smaller grenade launcher ( Aliens was a good example, Starship Troopers much less so) and tend to be very rugged. Materials technology will make them cheaper, and they will focus on one of two functions: volume of fire ( personally i think its sloppy work, but that is where the current wisdom is headed) or larger caliber long range pentrators, to defeat the commitant increase in armor on the soldier.

Granted I am voicing hard opinions, and I stand by them. I make these opininons based on handling the weapons in question in the ONLY venue that counts- combat, with enemy working REAL damn hard at offing me in the process.

Africa, Middle East, Central America, and all the attendent climates... its all about the soldier, and how he handles the weapon, not the weapon itself.

G11-too complex, and no logistics train... dont trust a rifle you cant fix in the field

AUG... within 300 yrds, an excellent gun, but limited by its sights

FAMAS- the french built the damn thing, nuff said

SA-80-too delicate by half, but they are getting there

M61a2- a good weapon, and it only took thirty years to get that way

FNFAL- i trust it.

the FN 2000 ( the little subgun guy) got to try one live recently- stinks for anything long range,(100-150+meter) but in urban/CQB, in the hands of an aggresive troop, its a buzzsaw! excellent design for that purpose!and yes, reliable , too.

G3- this one I trust, too

M14... a little delicate, but tricked out as a sniper my rifle of preference, as a box magazine means you can fight your way out of a bad situation. ( boltguns are more accurate, but lousy when your being chased by a squad of cuban regulars with AKs)

the new Objective Weapons.. abominations created by idiots in the lab. actually talked to a fellow who attended a test, and he maintened the test shooters only comment away from the range was that they would be a great weapon-mounted on a vehicle.

enough exposition, i leave ya'll to it
 
Thx bryan... being an ex 11b20 myself i am reluctant to voice my opinions...one becuase i am not a gun freak (no slight intended to anyone). Two someone always came up with a bunch of numbers and statistics that always sounded impresive. Looking forward to hearing more opinions about the ACR concept from others.

spiff
 
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Thx bryan... being an ex 11b20 myself i am reluctant to voice my opinions...one becuase i am not a gun freak (no slight intended to anyone). Two someone always came up with a bunch of numbers and statistics that always sounded impresive. Looking forward to hearing more opinions about the ACR concept from others.

HOOAHH!

anytime, buddy
 
you all know how i HATE to talk guns in Traveller!!!!.....BUT...WOW....I LOVE THIS "STUFF"...New Toys....Now your talkin GUNS!!!!....GIMMY MORE!!!!.... :D :D :eek: :eek:
 
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