The role of combat medics at high tech

[McPerth]

Seeing this comment in another thread:

A current Special Forces A-Team has 12 men (able to split up into 2 teams), and they are cross-trained. So I was thinking it likely that Marine commandos strike forces probably couldn't afford the luxury of designated sole task medics.

has led me to think on the role the combat medics can have in high tech battlefield (mostly once combat armor appears).

I mean, if the troops are armored in Combat Armor or Battledress, factis I cannot see many a combat medic can do on a wounded trooper without taking the armor off first, and I guess this is not done until they reach the medical station (of course not in hostile environments, but I guess neither in hospitable ones), as taking it off would need time (and probably special tools, mostly if it is damaged, as it can be expected if the wearer is wounded), and better do it at a safer place.

 

[Drakon]

So, what you are saying is that medics should have some kind of high tech can opener, if they need to open damaged battledress.

Also the medic's own battledress might have some boosts to allow him to grab a patient and hightail it to someplace safe.

 

[McPerth]

So, what you are saying is that medics should have some kind of high tech can opener, if they need to open damaged battledress.

Also the medic's own battledress might have some boosts to allow him to grab a patient and hightail it to someplace safe.

Or more probably that the combat medic as we know it does not exist anymore in this high tech battlefield, just recovery teams (be them sentient or robot) that take the damaged CA/BD (with its wearer inside) to the recovery station, where the trooper state can be evaluated, and if he needs immediate treatment, he can be taken out of the armor and treated (or "frozen" for latter treatment in better facilities, if that's the case).

 

[Diveguy]

Seeing this comment in another thread:

has led me to think on the role the combat medics can have in high tech battlefield (mostly once combat armor appears).

I mean, if the troops are armored in Combat Armor or Battledress, factis I cannot see many a combat medic can do on a wounded trooper without taking the armor off first, and I guess this is not done until they reach the medical station (of course not in hostile environments, but I guess neither in hospitable ones), as taking it off would need time (and probably special tools, mostly if it is damaged, as it can be expected if the wearer is wounded), and better do it at a safer place.

Ref the original quote - since Vietnam (at least as far as American forces are concerned, I won't speak for other nations) - Special Operations medics of every branch have taken part in offensive combat actions to one extent or another. Primarily for the reason described, in that you only have so many bodies to go around.

 

[Grav_Moped]

If the casualty is in combat armor/battledress, the best option might just be to stabilize with Fast Drug and transport for treatment.

 

[Condottiere]

For special forces, cross training is to ensure that specific skill sets aren't lost in case of casualties, you know, redundancy.

One assumes if you're armoured up in a high tech tincan, the onboard computer constantly monitors your health, and can perform emergency first aid: in The Forever War, it amputated the protagonist's leg, as I recall.

I'm assuming this is pretty much infantry based; certain rulesets mandated medics, or your unit took a morale hit.

In more fantastical variants, the chaplain was expected to fight and heal.

 

[Reban]

The JTAS article: Imperial Marine Task Force Organisation puts a medical section of 14 personnel under command of one of the 3 Task Force Headquarters in a Marine Regiment (GURPS Ground Forces adds more support at regimental level).

So from this we can say that there are no dedicated "medics" in the line company or commando company, but they can be attached as needed or act in support.

The medical section has a surgeon with three assistants in a hospital APC and three Ambulances each with two medical assistants. And there are a further two medical assistants riding on a utility sled.

The use of "medical assistant" instead of medic is interesting. Does that mean they just scoop and transport to the hospital apc?

According to the article they wear battledress and I assume they are armed.

My gut tells me that they are there to collect a casualty and use their skill and extra equipment to keep the casualty alive and transport them to the surgeon within the golden hour.

I imagine there are medical linkages in battledress that allow a medic to push fluids and drugs beyond the amounts and types carried in the battledress itself. I can't imagine every battledress has blood on board but an ambulance apc should. Current tech includes large "injectors" to introduce clotting and packing into wounds. Finally the can opener is a common thrope, but you need a safe place or atmosphere to do that in.

The idea of a hospital apc must be to have a safe place to crack battledress and intervene surgically.

Finally, medics are useful for making friends. Special forces and peacekeepers will tell you that opening a clinic and treating some toothache or common ailments is a great way to win friends and influence people. Maybe not an Imperial Marine role but you never know.

 

[Condottiere]

The more highly trained the combatant, the more incentive there would be to ensure that asset remains alive, or can be returned to the frontline after injury.

Ironically, with special forces, they may be far away from a viable pick up.

With less resilient cannon fodder, every morale boost counts.

 

[McPerth]

Ref the original quote - since Vietnam (at least as far as American forces are concerned, I won't speak for other nations) - Special Operations medics of every branch have taken part in offensive combat actions to one extent or another. Primarily for the reason described, in that you only have so many bodies to go around.

I guess this would be more appropiate in the original thread where I took the quote from, but thanks anyway for the info...

 

[McPerth]

One assumes if you're armoured up in a high tech tincan, the onboard computer constantly monitors your health, and can perform emergency first aid: in The Forever War, it amputated the protagonist's leg, as I recall.

Sure onboard computer monitors, but I guess the intervention capacity would be limited (aside from administring fast drug and hope for the best).

Of course, they can have some "air bladers" (akin of airbags) to pressure on any bleeding, but I guess they are quite likely to be damaged if the armor is penetrated, and probably the ones damaged are precisely the ones needed, as it's where the bleeding wound is...

OTOH, in case of massive bleeding or amputation some such "bladers" may inflate themselves up in the limb and act as turniquet...

BUu, unless the soldier has an intravenous catheter already (and that would not be good for his veins, aside from being a possible infection focus), it's difficult the armor itself can do much more.

In CT Zhodani module, the Consular Guard CA shows a self sealing section in the shoulder to administr injections, but I guess only subcutaneous or intramuscular ones can be, and while this might be good for Psi boosters (its main reason, IIRC), not so for most emergency drugs, nor for fluids, that need IV access.

I'm assuming this is pretty much infantry based; certain rulesets mandated medics, or your unit took a morale hit.

Sure, but if those are combat medics (treating troopers in combat zone) or medical sections (having advanced first aid and triage posts) is not detailed, and I guess both cases would keep the morale.

In "low" TL units (and I mean before the advent of CA) no doubt combat medics are included, but as CA (and latter BD) appear, I guess their influence is quite lowered at best, and that's the point of my OP statement.

 

[McPerth]

The JTAS article: Imperial Marine Task Force Organisation puts a medical section of 14 personnel under command of one of the 3 Task Force Headquarters in a Marine Regiment (GURPS Ground Forces adds more support at regimental level).

So from this we can say that there are no dedicated "medics" in the line company or commando company, but they can be attached as needed or act in support.

The medical section has a surgeon with three assistants in a hospital APC and three Ambulances each with two medical assistants. And there are a further two medical assistants riding on a utility sled.

The use of "medical assistant" instead of medic is interesting. Does that mean they just scoop and transport to the hospital apc?

And yet, according Mercenary (both CT and MT), the Imperial Marines have no doctors, being treated by Navy surgeons...

According to the article they wear battledress and I assume they are armed.

Battledress can be quite useful in recovering similarly armored people, if only because the strenght boost would help to carry them (aside from "grav assisted stretchers").

About being armed, I'm not so sure, as weapons in this battlefied are far from the handguns medics use to carry nowdays...

My gut tells me that they are there to collect a casualty and use their skill and extra equipment to keep the casualty alive and transport them to the surgeon within the golden hour.

Agreed, and that's consistent with my statement that they are not treated on field, but evacuated to be treated where the armor can be taken off.

And never forget fast drug can extend this "Golden hour"...

I imagine there are medical linkages in battledress that allow a medic to push fluids and drugs beyond the amounts and types carried in the battledress itself. I can't imagine every battledress has blood on board but an ambulance apc should. Current tech includes large "injectors" to introduce clotting and packing into wounds. Finally the can opener is a common thrope, but you need a safe place or atmosphere to do that in.

As I already said, I see some problems in this fluid and drugs (at least intravenous) administration by the armor itself (again, unless an permanent intravenous catheter is common among such troops), and, again, I guess the fast drug would be profusely used in those cases.

The idea of a hospital apc must be to have a safe place to crack battledress and intervene surgically.

Fully agreed. I guess those "hospital APCs" are airthight and have airlocks and atmophere inside (what would make them quite large, BTW).

Finally, medics are useful for making friends. Special forces and peacekeepers will tell you that opening a clinic and treating some toothache or common ailments is a great way to win friends and influence people. Maybe not an Imperial Marine role but you never know.

Agreed again, but I guess this would not be performed by those high tech troops (whose main role would be combat and special operations), but by some other agency (as I understand 3I, probably the contact branch of IISS, whose missión may well include PR for the Imperium, as explicited in the "tech gifts" they usually bring to "natives" seen in several places in Traveller).

 

[Reban]

And yet, according Mercenary (both CT and MT), the Imperial Marines have no doctors, being treated by Navy

The article say "a surgeon" so its possibly a Naval surgeon. The medical assistants might be more like mechanical recovery specialists.

[Edit] funny image just popped into my head of a medical assistant placing a tow hook in the belt of an injured battledressed marine

About being armed, I'm not so sure, as weapons in this battlefied are far from the handguns medics use to carry nowdays...

The article says everyone get Battledress and FGMP14, which I think is both overkill and lacking utility. I'm thinking that the medical assistant would have a point defence laser on the shoulder giving them some protection as they go about their work.

And never forget fast drug can extend this "Golden hour"...

As quick as possible with as few complication as possible. Can you imagine a doctor trying to assess a patient on Fast? I think they'll carry it but avoid using it unless they really have to.

As I already said, I see some problems in this fluid and drugs (at least intravenous) administration by the armor itself (again, unless an permanent intravenous catheter is common among such troops), and, again, I guess the fast drug would be profusely used in those cases.

I'm envisioning the "medical port or ports" as being an access point that gives a medic access to veins or skin. "Hyposprays" a la Star Trek exist for drug administration via the skin. Ports could also give access to the Battledress's own plumbing so it can inject or draw blood, or just top up it's own reservoirs.

Fully agreed. I guess those "hospital APCs" are airthight and have airlocks and atmophere inside (what would make them quite large, BTW).

You also see real world special forces medics using pop up two man tents to treat and perform surgeries. Strap a pop up vacuum sealed tent to the hip of your medic. This is even useful for boarding actions where ships might be in vacuum or risk depressurisation. Like a two man rescue bubble for when the boarding party takes casualties.

Agreed again, but I guess this would not be performed by those high tech troops (whose main role would be combat and special operations), but by some other agency (as I understand 3I, probably the contact branch of IISS, whose missión may well include PR for the Imperium, as explicited in the "tech gifts" they usually bring to "natives" seen in several places in Traveller).

I'm thinking the marines should never be planetside long enough to get involved in that kind of civil affairs, but I do see disaster relief as part of the Naval mission. I'm not sure if its canon but I recall a branch of the Scouts that were Medical Scouts part CDC, part flying doctors.

 

[McPerth]

The article say "a surgeon" so its possibly a Naval surgeon. The medical assistants might be more like mechanical recovery specialists.

[Edit] funny image just popped into my head of a medical assistant placing a tow hook in the belt of an injured battledressed marine .

Maybe, of course...

The article says everyone get Battledress and FGMP14, which I think is both overkill and lacking utility. I'm thinking that the medical assistant would have a point defence laser on the shoulder giving them some protection as they go about their work.

I guess when it says everybody in BD it means combat forces. I cannot imagine the maintenance trying to fix anything while in BD, as I guess its gloves are not thought for manual dexterity...

Same would happen with anyone trying to asist a wounded person, though I can for those trying to evacuate him

As quick as possible with as few complication as possible. Can you imagine a doctor trying to assess a patient on Fast? I think they'll carry it but avoid using it unless they really have to.

As you say, trying to assess a patient on Fast would be challenging to say the best, but I keep believing this is done after evacuatin, even if beacause (s)he has to be taken off from the CA/BD, and then antidotes can be administred.

My take is that in most cases heavily wounded CA/BD tropos are put on Fast before evacuatin to the first aid station, where they would be taken off the armor and treated.

I'm envisioning the "medical port or ports" as being an access point that gives a medic access to veins or skin. "Hyposprays" a la Star Trek exist for drug administration via the skin. Ports could also give access to the Battledress's own plumbing so it can inject or draw blood, or just top up it's own reservoirs.

That would be dangerous and uncomfortable. At best it could be akin a port a cath (link to wiki) and they have their own problems...

I'm thinking the marines should never be planetside long enough to get involved in that kind of civil affairs, but I do see disaster relief as part of the Naval mission. I'm not sure if its canon but I recall a branch of the Scouts that were Medical Scouts part CDC, part flying doctors.

I don't think this is canon, though maybe you talk about this comment of mine in another (over two ywers ago) thread, but remember I said this is IMOTU, so to say...:

Health:

I’ve never read about an Imperial Health Ministry. So I assume there is none (the health needs are quite varied along the Imperium), leaving mostly to local authorities. Nonetheless, some coordination is needed, and the IISS, due to their knowledge about planetary hazards (including illnesses) and xenology, has assumed this role. In this sense, they keep a large registry of known and newly appearing diseases, and help to develop cures when possible (akin of CDC). In this sense they have the power to establish quarantines if needed.

They also become a kind of emergency response service, having emergency supplies in most their bases and way stations (quite numerous along the Imperium) ready to respond on any such situations, and use to be the first ones to respond.

Another service they offer in this sense (and one less told about, though by no means secret) is to keep sperm banks and to help in fostering children from other worlds to infertile couples. This is mostly done from HiPop planets to LowPop ones, and has the double goal to help those couples and to increase the gene pool, and so avoiding endogamy, of those LowPop planets without involving large migrations that could affect their cultures.

 

[atpollard]

In civilian circles, an Ambulance can arrive at a restaurant where a patron has suffered a heart attack, the cook has severed four fingers and an technician working on the stage lights has suffered electrocution. They have terrific equipment and skill both on their person and in the ambulance to deal with the medical emergency.

However, when an elevated highway collapses and multiple cars are overturned and partially crushed and buried in rubble, the ambulance does not have the equipment to extract survivors from the wreckage to effectively treat them and transport them to a hospital. This is where a different group of experts with a different set of tools come into play. Medics with hydraulic jacks and pneumatic hammers and "jaws of life" to tear open cars and move debrit so that they can extract and treat their patients.

A BATTLEDRESS battlefield will have life threatening situations that go beyond just treating the wound. The wounded Battledress may be burred beneath an entire building as a result of an Ortillery attack. Even the mighty Main Battle Tank has a vehicular "medic" designed to rescue the stranded tank and crew. Why should a Battledress that costs as much as a tank not be worth specialized craft and crew to rescue them?

"No man left behind" has been a point of Honor, Pride and Morale for the Marines for over 200 years ... should it be any less true in the Far Future?

**********

PS: As an aside, a "Medic" that could perform a battlefield repair to restore lost functionality to a suit of armor might be a TL 15 "holistic" Battlefield Medic and be equipped with a suit of Battledress that provides support functions (like recharging suit medkit supplies or repairing "critical systems" to avoid a lucky "mission kill" shot).

 

[Timerover51]

I look at if from the standpoint of a tank being penetrated. If the suit is hit with something hard enough to injure the occupant, the occupant is not wounded, but dead. You are recovering the suit for repair if possible. How tough do you think the armor of Barrle Dress is anyway? On par with an M1 Abrams?

 

[Condottiere]

Tanks are expensive, so you recover a penetrated vehicle and sanitize it of human remains if you can repair it.

Or cannibalize it for parts.

 

[whartung]

I can readily see BD having a built in tourniquet system for the extremities. We're having much more success with tourniquets today.

For the trunk it's obviously not quite as straightforward. But I can see a medic, or even a trooper, having a packing kit that can be inserted in to the armor opening and activated. Some high volume medical foaming compound to penetrate and fill the wound cavity.

There are several devices available today to try to solve that problem. From off the shelf tampons, to expansive pellets that are shoved in to the wound to fill it out.

And, then, of course, there's the hand wavium magic of nano-tech.

 

[jec10]

The "medical sections" in the CT JTAS Imperial Marines and Zhodani articles are a result of the CT/Striker rules regarding medics in Book 2 Advanced Rules and I'd suggest no more thought went into them than meeting the requirements of Striker.

 

[atpollard]

I look at if from the standpoint of a tank being penetrated. If the suit is hit with something hard enough to injure the occupant, the occupant is not wounded, but dead. You are recovering the suit for repair if possible. How tough do you think the armor of Barrle Dress is anyway? On par with an M1 Abrams?

Agreed that a Fusion Gun that blasts a hole through the torso of a Battledress Marine on an airless rockball calls for a Clergy more than a Medic ...

... but Tanks can also throw a thread or get stuck in soft mud, where sanitizing the crew may be a bit extreme. In the same way battledress increases strength by some multiple (probably rule version specific) but could still be trapped by an object too heavy to lift or entangled in debris that needs to be cut away to rescue the occupant.

Then there is a suit of battledress that is completely undamaged except for the unconscious occupant suffering a concussion and ruptured ear drums from the blast that threw him like a rag doll. He needs a medic because if the suit walks him back unaided, then the OCCUPANT is superfluous and warfare becomes Drones vs Drones (realistic but not really a RPG).

 

[CaptRet]

We are assuming that the Combat Armor or Battle Dress equipped soldier gets hit by a PGMP or FGMP and his/her suit is penetrated, but that isn't the only possible scenario. It very well may be that only the support weapons member of the squad is so equipped, with the majority having Gauss Rifles. On that battlefield, a wound inflicted by a Gauss Rifle or VRF gun (essentially a machine gun version), might make a very small (but no less dangerous for that) hole in the suit and the flesh cradled within. In such case, the suit might be equipped for emergency first aid (sufficient, perhaps, to extend the "Golden Hour") until a medic can strip the armor and work on the casualty. The effects of some other types of weapons strikes on the armor also could, perhaps, cause spalling on the interior of the suit (similar to a tank being struck by a kinetic round) and thereby inflict a wound to the occupant even without penetration.