The SMG has been found

[Allensh]

Over on the Mongoose board, in a thread I started, MongooseBry has stated that he felt that the SMG fit better under auto-carbine. I have actually heard them called that elsewhere which is why I felt that this might have been the case.

Therefore, we now know what happened to the SMG.

Allen

 

[Andrew Boulton]

No, carbines are light, shorter-bbl rifles, firing rifle ammo.

SMGs are smaller, usually full-auto, and fire pistol ammo.

There is an overlap, but they aren't the same.

 

[Allensh]

Agreed. From a game perspective one wonders if there would have been much difference in the stats though. The thread over there does include some stats for a TL6 SMG.

Allen

 

[far-trader]

From a game perspective one wonders if there would have been much difference in the stats though...

Allen

But that way lies the madness of "GUN: Roll 1D damage." to cover all types of projectile weapons from a holdout derringer to a 50 caliber rifle in combat including fully automatic fire and shotguns

 

[Klaus]

In some forces SMGs are being replaced by PDWs or half-size assault rifles.

Eg: P90, L22A2 carbine.

You could argue that the term SMG might be deprecated by TL10, which is at the lower end of the ambient tech of a spacefaring game at least.

The role of the SMG is now being taken up by weapons that do not carry that term, so auto-carbine seems a good catch-all, else we'll have several different weapons with identical stats.

ie: damage and range between pistol and assault rifle (3d6-3 and 3d6; pistol or assault). 3d6-2 and Shotgun seems appropriate enough. At least IMO.

In my games, to further differentiate by tech level, I'm house ruling it: TL5-6, 3d6-2/pistol (at that TL the auto-pistol is not Auto); TL7-9, 3d6-2/shotgun; TL10-12, 3d6-2/assault, where assault rifle becomes obsolete as the ACR arrives. At higher TLs the gauss carbine takes over.

 

[far-trader]

In some forces SMGs are being replaced by PDWs or half-size assault rifles.

Thanks to the development of the bullpup configuration of the weapon, allowing one to essentially design a rifle with the length of a carbine or shorter.

Arguing that the SMG is deprecated by TL ignores the issue that the game (MGT at least in this case) is supposed to be providing a background for any sci-fi game. So if they include early TLs as possible they have to address that. "Losing" the SMG is a mistake and they and the frothing fans should just admit it and move on. Not keep creating new ways to defend the mistake.

Or should we be asking why they have TL5 handguns when obviously these would be deprecated by the TL10 gauss pistol?

Yes, the role of the SMG is being filled by bullpup assault rifles. Because you get a better weapon in the same relative form factor. Once the bullpup config is "invented" but not before.

Auto-carbine is a poor catch all imo. Carbine simply means short rifle. An auto-carbine is a very different thing from an SMG.

An SMG should have the same damage as a pistol. A little better range. And full auto fire benefits.

An auto-carbine should have the same damage as a rifle. A little worse range. And full auto fire benefits.

See how they are not the same, even though the very different weapons are used in the same role?

 

[Klaus]

Yes, the role of the SMG is being filled by bullpup assault rifles. Because you get a better weapon in the same relative form factor. Once the bullpup config is "invented" but not before.

Bullpup's been around since 1901. The inspiration for the ACR (at least regarding the artwork), the EM2, was around in the early 50's. Many of the 'short' assault rifles are not bullpup, also.

Auto-carbine is a poor catch all imo. Carbine simply means short rifle. An auto-carbine is a very different thing from an SMG.

An SMG should have the same damage as a pistol. A little better range. And full auto fire benefits.

An auto-carbine should have the same damage as a rifle. A little worse range. And full auto fire benefits.

See how they are not the same, even though the very different weapons are used in the same role?

I know they are not the same. The Walther PPK has got very different performance to the .45 ACP. A Bergman MP-18 is very different to a P90. RPGs do not model this well, Traveller included. It's only ever a very rough approximation. [edit] Semi-auto SMGs are called carbines, btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine#Other_carbines

And I don't think it's 'frothing fans' - it's more some people pointing out that the SMG class has been covered in the rules, when some folk thought it hadn't. Personally, I'd have included the SMG as a low tech auto-carbine, just to keep the peace, if anything. But the weapon effectively exists now within the rules. The exact terminology is, of course, up to the ref.

 

[Border Reiver]

PDW's and Assault Carbines

PDW's are SMGs. FULL STOP. They use pistol ammunition and to be used properly you should fire them from the shoulder. Fancy ergonomics and marketing might make you think you are getting a revolutionary firearm but it is not. The MP-7 and P-90 were revolutionary because of their ammunition (which are also used in pistols), higher muzzle velocity and greater penetration (from what I remember from my contact the P-90 is a bit of a marketing con, after the initial sales and trials they redesigned the 5.7mm round with a lower anti-armour capability and refitted the p-90 for the new bullet, a factor which may have influenced the MOD ditching it for the MP-7). There are other weapons out there that call themselves PDWs but they are just SMGs using conventional pistol ammo and with conventional layouts.

Assault Carbines are exactly as they say on the tin. A cut down assault rifle that cuts down on its accurate range but is still good out to a couple of hundred meters. It has all the recoil of the full size version in a compact package, positives and negatives. Many see them as replacements for SMG's but they are less easily handled despite their size and the ammo is much heavier.

 

[Border Reiver]

Oh and I'm quite happy with the current definitions of auto carbine and auto pistol though it could have been done better. Golan's definition for example.

 

[Klaus]

Oh and I'm quite happy with the current definitions of auto carbine and auto pistol though it could have been done better. Golan's definition for example.

I'll agree with that.

Weapon terminology isn't clear cut, as you say. One man's SMG is another man's PDW (SMG is easier off the tongue and sounds nastier, thought ).

Carbine as a term has been often very loosely applied, too. In fact a full size assault rifle could be (and has, I believe) called to a carbine when compared with a battle rifle or bolt action. Different armies and different nations also have somewhat different terminologies, and various legalities can affect the terms too.

 

[Trent]

But that way lies the madness of "GUN: Roll 1D damage." to cover all types of projectile weapons from a holdout derringer to a 50 caliber rifle in combat including fully automatic fire and shotguns

AAAAIIIIIIIEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I may not need systems where there are separate stats stats for a .48 and a .50 calibur pistol, but going too far the other way sucks too.

 

[Border Reiver]

Yup, long have the discussions of carbine on this board been.:rofl:

I'll bide my time for the Mongoose gear book but in the meantime watch this space for some fun with Magrail Guns

 

[Klaus]

I put all the weapons into one list, plus some of my own. I have adjusted some of the stats to suit my taste, but it is a word doc so it's adjustable.

www.crookedlimb.net/nisseau/MGT_Wpn2.doc

I'd be interested to hear your, is it, redefinition of the magrail?

Been doing a bit of reading on the difference between the coil (gauss) gun and the rail gun. I could see the magrail being a reliable and easy to use kind of rail gun, able to chuck rough lumps of ferrous metal out at high speed, and do it in a less fiendishly complex way than arranging a series of coils to attract then repulse in a tight sequence. The magrail has less parts to go wrong, and fires crudely worked ammo, but gauss weapons are still considered a more elegant weapon (at TL14-15).

 

[MikeNGina]

I think far-trader is correct here...

The problem isn't really solved, because a SMG and a carbine produce a different effect when entering the human body, IE damage. They also fire at different velocities which effect cutting through armor or being repelled by armor. I believe these things matter a great deal, even in a RPG. Granted, if you have to substitute one for the other until the correct rules come out, I can see that. I surely shouldn't let the game designer feel that the substitution is ok and say that the SMG has been found, because it hasn't. They need to do their job and produce those stats, not say just use the carbine. Especially in a game like Traveller. IMHO.
Mike

 

[tbeard1999]

Thanks to the development of the bullpup configuration of the weapon, allowing one to essentially design a rifle with the length of a carbine or shorter.

Arguing that the SMG is deprecated by TL ignores the issue that the game (MGT at least in this case) is supposed to be providing a background for any sci-fi game. So if they include early TLs as possible they have to address that. "Losing" the SMG is a mistake and they and the frothing fans should just admit it and move on. Not keep creating new ways to defend the mistake.

Yeah, lotsa luck on that.

IMHO, the failure to include one of the most ubiquitous weapon systems of TL5-8+, and of most versions of Traveller, is another strike against MGT, though a modest one. Especially when one considers the other legitimate criticisms that are available.

 

[tbeard1999]

Bullpup's been around since 1901. The inspiration for the ACR (at least regarding the artwork), the EM2, was around in the early 50's. Many of the 'short' assault rifles are not bullpup, also.



I know they are not the same. The Walther PPK has got very different performance to the .45 ACP. A Bergman MP-18 is very different to a P90. RPGs do not model this well, Traveller included. It's only ever a very rough approximation. [edit] Semi-auto SMGs are called carbines, btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine#Other_carbines

And I don't think it's 'frothing fans' - it's more some people pointing out that the SMG class has been covered in the rules, when some folk thought it hadn't. Personally, I'd have included the SMG as a low tech auto-carbine, just to keep the peace, if anything. But the weapon effectively exists now within the rules. The exact terminology is, of course, up to the ref.

Sorry, but I don't think that the evidence supports this assertion.

Carbines--whether auto or semiauto--have historically been considered a different class of weapon than SMGs (anonymously sourced Wikipedia articles notwithstanding).

In general, carbines fall between rifles and SMGs in muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and (particularly) barrel length. Consider some TL5 representative samples:

Rifle: M1 Garand, firing the .30-06 (7.62x63mm) round, 3894J muzzle energy, 24" barrel

Carbine: M1/M2 Carbine, firing the .30 Carbine (7.62x33mm) round, 1190J muzzle energy, 18" barrel

SMG: M3 "Grease Gun", firing the .45 ACP pistol round, 706J muzzle energy, 8" barrel; Thompson SMG, firing the .45ACP round, 10.5" barrel (some unsuccessful variants had longer barrels and different ammo).

Pistol: Colt M1911, firing the .45 ACP pistol round, 386-600J? muzzle energy, 3.5-5" barrel.

Many carbines fire pistol rounds, instead of special carbine rounds. Even though the ammunition is the same, such carbines generate significantly more muzzle energy than pistols or SMGs because of their significanly longer barrels. A TL5 example is the Marlin Model 1894 lever action carbine, which is chambered for .357 magnum, .44 magnum or .38 special pistol rounds. The Hi-Point 995 carbine (9x19mm), with 16.5" or 17.5" barrel (which even uses the same magazines as the Hi-Point 9mm pistol) is a TL7 example. The Berretta Cx4 Storm, with a 16.6" barrel is another example, using 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP ammo and Baretta pistol magazines.

The development of assault rifles has caused some overlap with carbines. Assault rifles typically have 20" barrels, which makes them longer than carbines, but shorter than rifles. However, many assault rifles have 16" variants, which are also called "carbines". For instance, the M4 carbine, which is an M-16 with a 16.5" barrel.

However, assault rifles and their short barreled variants have significantly higher muzzle energy than other carbines -- ~1900J compared with ~1200J or less.

Modern submachineguns have *significantly* shorter barrels than carbines and usually fire pistol ammo (the 9x19mm round is popular). Representative weapons are the UZI (10.2" barrel) and the HK MP5 (5.5-8.9" barrel). Some new SMGs fire proprietary ammo, but the performance of the ammo is comparable to pistol ammo. Example--the FN P90, which fires a new 5.7x28mm bullet and has a 10.1" barrel (393-538J muzzle energy). Compare this to the M4 carbine, which fires a 5.56x45mm cartridge (with ~1900J muzzle energy) and has a 16" barrel.

Bottom line -- there are at least two characteristics that distinguish carbines from rifles and SMGs--barrel length and muzzle energy. Barrel length is the most obvious:

Rifles: 24"+
Assault Rifles: 20"
Carbines: ~14-18"
SMGs: 5"-10.5"
Pistols: 2-5.5"

Extrapolating from these characteristics and representative weapons, a carbine will have significantly greater effective range (~200m vs. ~50m for the SMG) than a SMG and significanrly higher stopping power. It will be heavier and less handy and will have slightly more recoil, unless firing pistol class ammo.

So I'm sorry, a "carbine" is not the same as a "submachinegun" and is not roughly comparable in capability. Yet another example of a purported game designer not bothering to educate himself on the subject, IMHO. MGT fans would do well to stop defending such oversights and simply ask that the designer do his job.

 

[mike wightman]

My definintions:

submachine gun - a fully automatic shoulder fired weapon using pistol calibre ammunition

carbine/assault rifle - a short barreled rifle firing ammo of larger calibre and energy than pistol ammo, but smaller than (or cut down) battlerifle ammo - may be semi or full auto

rifle/battlerifle - long barrelled weapon firing large ammo.

 

[tbeard1999]

Yup, long have the discussions of carbine on this board been.:rofl:

I'll bide my time for the Mongoose gear book but in the meantime watch this space for some fun with Magrail Guns

Yeah, I was just saying that Traveller really needs shuriken catapults. Not to mention Psykers, Avatars, Warp Spiders, vortex grenades, lightsabers, personal deflector shields, teleportation belts, dustbuster phasers, black hole guns and atomic napalm neutralizers. And boy, Eldar, Orks and Squats would be great additions to Traveller canon as well.

 

[tbeard1999]

My definintions:

submachine gun - a fully automatic shoulder fired weapon using pistol calibre ammunition

carbine/assault rifle - a short barreled rifle firing ammo of larger calibre and energy than pistol ammo, but smaller than (or cut down) battlerifle ammo - may be semi or full auto

rifle/battlerifle - long barrelled weapon firing large ammo.

I'd include barrel length as a significant characteristic. SMGs would be 5.5-10.5"; Carbines would be 13-18"; assault rifles would be 19-22"; and rifles would be 24"+.

And even though some fire pistol ammo, the performance would be significantly enhanced due to the much longer barrel length.

 

[Vanyon]

Yeah, I was just saying that Traveller really needs shuriken catapults. Not to mention Psykers, Avatars, Warp Spiders, vortex grenades, lightsabers, personal deflector shields, teleportation belts, dustbuster phasers, black hole guns and atomic napalm neutralizers. And boy, Eldar, Orks and Squats would be great additions to Traveller canon as well.

SQUATS!

Come on now, every game needs Squats! LOL..

Ok so maybe not... please no. Although Shuricats are cool in their own way. Although one Idea that would be neat would be a man portable jump generator to jump small distances on a battlefield.

<Goes off to play his 40k army>

On topic though, Although I have enjoyed what MGT has put out, I must admit that none of their products has stood by itself. Had I not had CT to use to fall back on, I would say that a lot of the new players are really not getting as decent a product as they deserve.

Is it a good game? Yes.

However it is not as good as it could be if they had just gone the (very) little extra distance to produce something that was not just 'good' but 'excellent'. This issue with the SMG and Shuricat, sorry Mag Rail Gun, are just parts of it.

Note: Yes I do understand that certain of the books are meant to be more for any sci-fi game instead of just the 3I. It still does not mean they could not have added the extra 50-100 words they needed to make the difference.