The SMG has been found

[Allensh]

More playable for sure.

But you're not saying MGT went with the originals because it was more accurate and less playable are you? It's clearly not more accurate in any real way. And I don't think you mean they made a deliberate move to make it less playable.

No, certainly not. I was just speculating as to why GDW made that change. Myself, I use the values on the JG screen when I run CT, just because its easier; I don't think there's that much difference in playability myself.

Allen

 

[tbeard1999]

No, certainly not. I was just speculating as to why GDW made that change. Myself, I use the values on the JG screen when I run CT, just because its easier; I don't think there's that much difference in playability myself.

Allen

You can use the chart in Snapshot, which updates the JG chart. Or, you can use the charts I made and posted at http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=16893 (direct link http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/attachment.php?attachmentid=252&d=1220434097 )

And they're a lot easier to read than the JG charts (black on green is tough on my eyes).

I also think that the revised damages are more logical and much more playable.

 

[Jamus]

Well, we've now got shuriken catapults. Can gretchen really be that far behind?

Are gretchen somehow less plausable than Kkree or Hiver? Getting down to the brass tacks I have never been a huge fan of traveller aliens since the Aslan were given wierd hands. IMTU Aslan have human like hands with retractable claws just like the terran cats they were originally based on. why you may ask? Because this configuration seems to be the trend in the evolutionary records we have available. But thats a long time grudge I have.

However, I am skeptical that amateurish attempts to lift miscellaneous wargear from WH40K will net the MGT design team anything but well deserved ridicule. And maybe just a little pity.

shuriken catapults are accelerater rifles or gauss rifles are they not?

Ah, a new definition of the word "best"...

In any case, baldy stating something is *not* the same as making a coherent, well-supported argument.

That was a coherant well supported argument. I said MGT was the best version. it is.

Maybe so, but what's *really* delusional is comparing MGT to a 2008 Mustang... More like a 2008 Yugo (if Yugos were still being made).

Opinion but we both can agree that the mythical 2008 yugo, if they made them would still be better than your cobbled togather rusted out 1950s VW. It would be delusional to think otherwise.

I dunno...I think you're stretching here. Are you actually saying that plagiarizing WH40K is a *good* move for MGT?

As opposed to plagiarizing Robert A. Heinlien or Isaac Asomov? I think what ever moves the most units for mongoose traveller and brings the greatest number of new players into the game is a good thing.

 

[tbeard1999]

Are gretchen somehow less plausable than Kkree or Hiver?

Is this a serious question?

Is there *any* plagiarism that you would not condone in MGT?

shuriken catapults are accelerater rifles or gauss rifles are they not?

Uh, no. They are silly, absurd, implausible weapons haplessly plagiarized from a science fantasy wargame.

In any case, baldy stating something is *not* the same as making a coherent, well-supported argument.

That was a coherant well supported argument. I said MGT was the best version. it is.

<yawn>

Bald assertions are not "well supported arguments". They are, er, bald assertions.

Opinion but we both can agree that the mythical 2008 yugo, if they made them would still be better than your cobbled togather rusted out 1950s VW. It would be delusional to think otherwise.

Well, I kinda think of CT as a 1959 Corvette...which would be infinitely preferable to the mythical Yugo...

http://www.usedcorvettesforsale.com/1959.shtml

As opposed to plagiarizing Robert A. Heinlien or Isaac Asomov?

Are you actually comparing WH40K to the works of Heinlein and Asimov?

In any case, when someone buys an RPG called "Traveller," I think he's entitled to assume that he won't be getting a hodgepodge of plagiarized WH40K material.

 

[aramis]

Are gretchen somehow less plausable than Kkree or Hiver? Getting down to the brass tacks I have never been a huge fan of traveller aliens since the Aslan were given wierd hands. IMTU Aslan have human like hands with retractable claws just like the terran cats they were originally based on. why you may ask? Because this configuration seems to be the trend in the evolutionary records we have available. But thats a long time grudge I have.

The aslan hand configuration (with central thumb) mirrors certain therapod dinosaurs.

Heck, chickens feet are 3 vs 1... Ducks, too.

Some birds have 2 vs 2.

All provide oppositional use.

 

[far-trader]

And to beat on a particularly abused cat, Aslan are not evolved from Terran Feline stock. Or any Terran stock for that matter.

 

[aramis]

And to beat on a particularly abused cat, Aslan are not evolved from Terran Feline stock. Or any Terran stock for that matter.

Unlike the Vargr, Dolphins, Chimps*, Orangs*, and Ursa.

All the other races in Traveller are non-Terran stock.

*referenced but no CGen in Solomani & Aslan.

 

[Jamus]

The aslan hand configuration (with central thumb) mirrors certain therapod dinosaurs.

Heck, chickens feet are 3 vs 1... Ducks, too.

Some birds have 2 vs 2.

All provide oppositional use.

And none of these creatures climb about in jungle canopy or use tools. None of the hand configurations mentioned would have the strength and stability required to drive a nail with a hammer. The current Aslan hand is simply not plausable or believable.

A second point is that if a creature is evolved to fill a niche chances are it will be very similar to any other creature that fills the same environmental niche. Can any one of you explain why a warm blooded feline looking pouncer evolved on a african savanna environment would evolve hands like a chicken regardless of the sun the world is spinning around. Difference for the sake of difference is less believable than the human in a monster suit option.

 

[Jamus]

Is this a serious question?

All my questions are serious. maybe.

Is there *any* plagiarism that you would not condone in MGT?

No. There is no original sci-fi. All sci-fi takes from all other sci-fi

Uh, no. They are silly, absurd, implausible weapons haplessly plagiarized from a science fantasy wargame.

So are you saying that WH40K created the concept of the accelerator rifle or gauss rifle? that is what a shuriken catapult is regardless of the shape of the projectile.

<yawn>

You're telling me. I work full time, go to fire academy full time and try to make time to play traveller and debate you on all of your misconceptions. Get some sleep.

Bald assertions are not "well supported arguments". They are, er, bald assertions.

My bald assertions are well supported arguments.

Well, I kinda think of CT as a 1959 Corvette...which would be infinitely preferable to the mythical Yugo...

http://www.usedcorvettesforsale.com/1959.shtml

Agree

Are you actually comparing WH40K to the works of Heinlein and Asimov?

Yes in that WH40K was inspired to one degree or another by concepts found in asimov or heinlein works.

In any case, when someone buys an RPG called "Traveller," I think he's entitled to assume that he won't be getting a hodgepodge of plagiarized WH40K material.

when you assume you make an ass of U and me.

Also since you want to debate the point a bit more please explain why the Gretchen is some how less believable than the KKree. Bear in mind that the gretchen and the ork of 40K are created species designed by the now lost brain boys as a slave/warrior servant race. The creators died out or devolved into snotlings while the creations went on to run amok in the galaxy. to me that is far more believable than intelligent militant herbivores. Meat is the reason we evolved intellect, why would you assume it would be different elsewhere?

 

[Allensh]

"plagiarism" is a really strong word, basically an accusation.

So while we're at it, let's talk about things that Traveller has "borrowed" from other sources, very likely without gaining permission at the time...like oh say the names and concept for the Sword Worlds, which come from a book called "Space Viking" by H. Beam Piper. A book I am currently rereading, as it happens.

I don't think you can copyright the concept of a gun firing magnetically propelled discs, as I'm pretty sure it had probably been done before 40K. So, using it again in another context is not neccesarily "plagiarism".

Allen

 

[atpollard]

In any case, baldy stating something is *not* the same as making a coherent, well-supported argument.

That was a coherant well supported argument. I said MGT was the best version. it is.

Bald assertions are not "well supported arguments". They are, er, bald assertions.

My bald assertions are well supported arguments.

While I have no opinion on Warhammer, Yugo or Asimov, I can offer an opinion here:

Jamus argument is coherent and may even be true, but it is not "well supported". At this point it is an opinion, and 'best' makes it a highly subjective opinion at that.

Classic Traveller is 'longer lived' than MGT (so that COULD make CT the 'best').

TNE was far more detailed than MGT (so that COULD make TNE the 'best').

I don't know which version has sold the most copies, but given its recent arrival, it is probably not MGT.

That MGT is the newest is self-evident.
That MGT is popular is also self-evident.
But the burden of proof clearly rests with Jamus to support the claim that MGT is 'the best'.

Have Fun.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Not a chance with Traveller, not with Foundation on the shelf, or Dune, or tons of other works. In the early supplements there's even contests of Sci fi Characters converted to Traveller stats. Many authors write articles, citing influences. Plagarism is way too strong. Even with Frag Cannons or whatever.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Topic "The SMG has been found"

Calling all cars. We have a topic being brutally butchered and a possible riot on our hands. Please send rescue. All available peace officers should lend assistance.

 

[Gallowglacht]

I don't think you can copyright the concept of a gun firing magnetically propelled discs, as I'm pretty sure it had probably been done before 40K.

Actualy, shuriken catapults fire discs gravitically, not magnetically.
An anal, minute difference that ultimately means very little and adds little to the discussion.
Which is why it is right at home in this thread.

 

[Jame]

So ... the SMG in the main book is merely a machine-pistol?

 

[Jamus]

But the burden of proof clearly rests with Jamus to support the claim that MGT is 'the best'.

Have Fun.

I say it is the best as as this is my reality and you all merely figments I have created to entertain myself I think it is fair to say I am right.

 

[Allensh]

Actualy, shuriken catapults fire discs gravitically, not magnetically.
An anal, minute difference that ultimately means very little and adds little to the discussion.
Which is why it is right at home in this thread.

You are correct...on both counts.

Allen

 

[tbeard1999]

"plagiarism" is a really strong word, basically an accusation.

So while we're at it, let's talk about things that Traveller has "borrowed" from other sources, very likely without gaining permission at the time...like oh say the names and concept for the Sword Worlds, which come from a book called "Space Viking" by H. Beam Piper. A book I am currently rereading, as it happens.

I don't think you can copyright the concept of a gun firing magnetically propelled discs, as I'm pretty sure it had probably been done before 40K. So, using it again in another context is not neccesarily "plagiarism".

I don't necessarily object to plagiarism, but I do object to such lame and cut-rate plagiarism. I think it speaks volumes about the cluelessness (and aimlessness) of MGT when its military supplement contains crap like shuriken catapults...

And the sad fact is that there's no reason to play MGT if you want a WH40K style game. You could simply play Dark Heresy...

 

[aramis]

And none of these creatures climb about in jungle canopy or use tools. None of the hand configurations mentioned would have the strength and stability required to drive a nail with a hammer. The current Aslan hand is simply not plausable or believable.

A second point is that if a creature is evolved to fill a niche chances are it will be very similar to any other creature that fills the same environmental niche. Can any one of you explain why a warm blooded feline looking pouncer evolved on a african savanna environment would evolve hands like a chicken regardless of the sun the world is spinning around. Difference for the sake of difference is less believable than the human in a monster suit option.

Parrots don't climb about the jungle canopy? Have you, sir, ever actually worked with a parrot? I have; an african gray. Their feet are quite capable of tool use. It also is quite capable of carrying considerable weight in that "useless" set of talons, and while it can't swing a hammer, that's more to do with positioning in relation to the body than configuration of the end of limb digits.

Aslan, BTW, are defined as descending from pouncers. A birdlike set of talons can evolve to digitigrade stance (Ostritches) for running, and the opposed central digit is common enough in birds of prey. The Birds of prey use 3 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 for snatching prey on the go.

The primate hand, while very useful, is not the "only" useful configuration.

 

[atpollard]

Aslan, BTW, are defined as descending from pouncers. A birdlike set of talons can evolve to digitigrade stance (Ostritches) for running, and the opposed central digit is common enough in birds of prey. The Birds of prey use 3 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 for snatching prey on the go.

The primate hand, while very useful, is not the "only" useful configuration.

So an Aslan could use a SMG if MGT had included one!
...and might just snatch yours out of your 'primate' hands.
Is that what you are saying?