The Times, They Are A-Changin'

[Colin]

Here's the deal. A PM is, well, Private. It only goes to the person it is sent to. It can, at that point, be reported, and then goes to all the Mods, but there is a simpler way.

The Warning is the simpler way. Note that each Warning is lovingly hand-crafted by the originating Mod. We Don't have nay canned warnings, aside from the category. That is in the Warning/Infraction system, and those categories are a one-size-fits-most sort of deal. In any case, a Wanring is copied to all Mods via our private board.

"Friendly", secret PMs do not work. They more often than not simply become a running argument between the mod and the member as to the nature of the infraction.

If you think that you received a Warning (or Infraction, or Ban), Report it. It goes to all of the Mods, including our Lord High Executioner, Andrew, and we take a look. If we think it has merit, it gets changed, It we don't, it doesn't. We will generally explain our reasoning as well. You may not like it, but there it is.

Keep in mind that we do this not for any power trip (oohhh, I get to bully people I've never met online. Now I'm Somebody...) but to help out and support a community of gamers for whom we feel some affinity. This is all volunteer, and in some cases it may take us longer than you would like to get back to you.

 

[Colin]

A third Message type, like a caution, isn't a bad idea. The board isn't currently set up that way, and we have to use the tools at our disposal. Warning/Infraction is the tool. If a change were made, I would like use it, in some cases at least.

Otherwise, though, give me a break. No one else used a line like "I've missed the Pit a couple of times...until I realized all I wanted to do was point at something and show those "idiots" who voted for Obama how wrong they were." Could you not see how that breaks the board rules? That's what you got the Warning for.

In fact, here is the complete text of my Warning, since you are so inclined to keep flagellating the expired equine:

Post: The Times, They Are A-Changin'
User: Supplement Four
Infraction: Politics/Religion outside the Political Pulpit
Points: 0

Administrative Note:
Quote:
No Politics Outside of the Pit!

Message to User:
Quote:
No, really, I get the point of your note, which is why this is only a warning. But if that comments starts a war I'm gonna Infract the hell out of you. Please edit your post in accordance with the rules of the board.

 

[Blix]

Colin, I have to ask: why are you still a moderator here? I ask because I have noticed this at the top of the Website Issues board saying that you'd resigned as such:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=21755

For the record, I tried to resign. However, the only person who can change my Mod status is Hunter, and he isn't around much. At the same time, I like reading this board, and the action of some, especially towards newcomers, really annoy me. Since I have the capability to do something about it, I do. If I didn't, I would simply report it and go about my merry business.

The only place in my life where people have ever questioned my honesty, honour, or integrity is here on this board, in the course of my "duty" as a moderator. In five years as a Mod, I've only ever perma-banned two real people. A bunch of spammers too, but they don't count. I've tried to be fair, even-handed, and approachable. This hasn't worked.

Once upon a time ago, Hunter asked me to help out. I agreed, and it sort of made sense given my capacity as the writer of 2320AD.

Now, though? I haven't heard from Hunter in nearly three years, despite repeated attempts to contact him, to try and work out something to get 2320AD really published. I've seen him renege on the contract, and yet here I am, still taking abuse to help him with his message board.

No more. I'm done. While I may be listed as a Mod, please do not contact me in that role. I'm done, quit, resigned.

That was posted in February of this year. If that's the case, then why are you still here dishing out warnings? Given your experience here (particularly as someone who was badly let down by the previous owner), why are you even still on this board at all? If anything I would have thought that you'd have left long ago. I would have thought that you could actually get your wish now, since there is an active admin who can remove your moderator status.

I don't mean any disrespect by asking, but I am curious as to why you apparently choose to remain part of the system here given that you clearly don't want to be.

 

[aramis]

If that's the case, then why not just use a friendly PM first instead of that parking ticket-ish Warning that comes across so confrontational, especially when the mod is vague about what the Warning is for.

I'm sure not everybody, but I think most people, will respond better to a polite PM rather than an in-your-face-me-police-you-not-ticket-looking Warning.

I know I respond a lot better to polite reason than I do someone who is spitting in my face and expecting me to smile at them.

Because the warning/infraction system
1) tracks the behavior permanently (even when reversed); the mods can go back and check the original warning or infraction citations as far back as the start of the infraction system.
2) notifies all the moderators "immediately"* unlike a normal PM
3) copies the full text of the warning or infraction into a thread into the moderator section; this means no warning or infraction is without review already. Make a bad call, and other mods WILL discuss it, and reverse it.**
4) protects the moderators from false claims of harassment . Since every warning or infraction is automatically reviewed by other mods, if one of us were acting in a bad pattern, it would be rather apparent.


* We get emailed, and we get it in the moderator section of the board.
** There have been few reversals, tho' some individual cases do generate a lot of discussion over just how close to the line they were. You just never see it. And about 99% of the time, that discussion leads to a more consensus based view of the exact point of the line.

 

[dean]

As for Warnings, I don't think that boards should be run by mindless robots blindly enforcing rules and handing out "parking tickets" to people. And I don't see what is so bad or time-consuming about initially sending a PM to someone saying "hey, can you please change your post, it's over the line for (whatever reasons)". It's certainly less threatening than slapping a ticket on their head and branding them with a Warning.

Mods are NOT always sitting at the computer waiting for infractions to happen.
If they did send a PM out, and you don't log back into the board for a few days, with the offensive material/comment/link sitting there causing more people to complain/flame/press the report button, then it's a useless gesture.

A mod has a control panel set of options. He sees a post (by perusing or through the report feature), chooses the appropriate response, and sends the message. If it warrants it, he will edit or delete the post as he sees fit.

Since you (note this is NOT intended to be the personal "you", it's more the "generic" you) signed up for the board, and agreed to the terms thereby, you have said that this method of moderation is OK by you. If it is not, the you are free to browse and find that which suits you.

I see NO reason whatsoever that a VOLUNTEER, unpaid moderator should have to waste more of his time than absolutely necessary to get the job done. If you disagree that much, and want to send a civil PM and discuss the case, I am sure you will get a civil response. Otherwise, you just to have to not take it as a personal affront (unless, of course it really IS, then PM Andrew, I suppose).

I've gotten a couple warnings myself, and if I wanna be here, then I gotta follow their rules.

I don't have a problem with that.

YMMV.

.02 CrImp

 

[Spinward Scout]

Given your experience here (particularly as someone who was badly let down by the previous owner)

It's interesting how you know this about Colin since you weren't even on the board at the time. The Search-Fu must be strong in you (unless you were banned and came back on a different screen name).

Hey, can somebody pass the popcorn? I know this is a rerun, but it's getting to the good part.

o:

 

[Blix]

It's interesting how you know this about Colin since you weren't even on the board at the time.

He says as much in the post I quoted, which is also right at the top of the Website Issues board, so no searching is required. No prior knowledge is required either, though I am familiar with some of the 2320AD story from what others have said about it elsewhere.

And as I said previously, I was reading the publicly accessible parts of this board for a while before I actually registered here as a user.

 

[Supplement Four]

I guess it was too much to hope that there'd be a willingness to turn over a new leaf here.

I'm starting to feel ya. I really am.

Hey, I tried. They really don't want to listen or change anything in this "new era", but I gave it a shot.

A third Message type, like a caution, isn't a bad idea. The board isn't currently set up that way, and we have to use the tools at our disposal. Warning/Infraction is the tool. If a change were made, I would like use it, in some cases at least.

Are you saying a third message is impossible to add to the system?

Otherwise, though, give me a break. No one else used a line like "I've missed the Pit a couple of times...until I realized all I wanted to do was point at something and show those "idiots" who voted for Obama how wrong they were." Could you not see how that breaks the board rules?

No, I don't. Or, I wouldn't have written it in the first place. As I told Far Trader in PM, it was a humorous way of stating why I was against the Pit returning. Did you not see the smileys?

It was akin to the line in movie Patton when a reporter asked him, "Sir, you read the Bible every morning?" And Patton replied, "I do, ever g*ddamed day!"

Or if you asked a Foreign Office politician what he thought of the US Marine Corps, and he'd say, "Those boys are great! They land on foreign soil, beat the hell out of the natives, and restore peace and good will."

My comment was just like that. I didn't want the Pit to return because I was liable to point at something and tell those "idoits" who voted for Obama how wrong they were.

With the smileys, I even put quotation marks around the word "idiots".

In fact, here is the complete text of my Warning, since you are so inclined to keep flagellating the expired equine:

See...here's that double standard again. You keep proving my point.

If I had just written that to you, out here, one of you would slap me with a Warning at a minimum.

But because YOU wrote it, nothing happens.

But if that comments starts a war I'm gonna Infract the hell out of you.

And, if you think I'm going to tolerate that kind of talk from you or anyone else, you are saddly mistaken.

Again, had I put this out in the open, I would have been given some Warning or Infraction that the mods cooked up for "arguing with a mod in public" or some such crap.

Double standard. Nothing happens to you.

Is this type of thing going to continue in this new era of the board, Andrew?

 

[dean]

It's interesting how you know this about Colin since you weren't even on the board at the time. The Search-Fu must be strong in you (unless you were banned and came back on a different screen name).

Hey, can somebody pass the popcorn? I know this is a rerun, but it's getting to the good part.

o:

I've been here a while, profited from the posts of others, been in a couple flame wars in the Pit (RIP), and just try to be civil and have a thick skin as needed. I intend to be here for a while more. i enjoy the grognardy banter, the insights into the process of the game and it's mechanics, and the plain camaraderie that results in having a common interest.

I appreciate that Hunter invested a lot here, but has moved on both physically and temporally. Thank you sir, and good luck with your future endeavors (where the heck is the new GRiP? )

I am glad MWM has taken on the CotI, and I think it will evolve into a better place with the new management. That said, I certainly don't expect things to happen overnight. Hopefully the process will be done with more thought to unintended consequences than speed.

I think the mods do indeed have a thankless and (often) frustrating job, and I don't envy any of it from them. Thanks to each of you. Yes, even you. You know who I mean. =]

That said, I can understand S4's position; he appears to me to be grinding his hatchet (a small axe) a little (sorry S4, love your stuff, really), but at the same time I think he really does have the best interests of the community in mind, at the heart of it (although I don't necessarily agree with his p.o.v. on this topic).

The other fellow, on the other hand, really has no history here and seems to have made the welfare of this forum his own personal Holy Grail, with little or no investment having been made to the content or character of the board now. I don't think that stirring up the pot just of the heck of it is productive, and if it's clear that things are not to one's liking, one should move on (as that poster has indicated he will, more than once). Accept what is, or move on. Life's too short to waste it on all this non-positive effort.

 

[Spinward Scout]

The other fellow, on the other hand, really has no history here and seems to have made the welfare of this forum his own personal Holy Grail, with little or no investment having been made to the content or character of the board now. I don't think that stirring up the pot just of the heck of it is productive, and if it's clear that things are not to one's liking, one should move on (as that poster has indicated he will, more than once). Accept what is, or move on. Life's too short to waste it on all this non-positive effort.

Dean,

Someday, I will buy you a cigar. In the real world.

Seriously

 

[Blix]

The other fellow, on the other hand, really has no history here and seems to have made the welfare of this forum his own personal Holy Grail, with little or no investment having been made to the content or character of the board now. I don't think that stirring up the pot just of the heck of it is productive, and if it's clear that things are not to one's liking, one should move on (as that poster has indicated he will, more than once). Accept what is, or move on. Life's too short to waste it on all this non-positive effort.

People who have been in a place for a long time are rarely the ones who see any reason to change it, even though it's falling apart around their ears. I'm just trying to point out some flaws in how the place is being run.

I attempted to contribute to the "character" of the board and ended up having to defend science from anti-science conspiracy theorists and being lectured by sociopathic mongoose-haters for my trouble, and I got a rude and very vaguely-phrased Warning from a moderator to add insult to injury. So I don't see much reason to contribute any further in that sense.

What gets me is that some people here have openly asked "where is everybody" while lamenting the decline of CotI, but when outsiders like me point out some of the possible reasons that people may avoid this board we get stonewalled, threatened with legal action, or generally shrieked at by paranoid nuts. Some people here clearly terrified of change, and you've already demonstrated a willingness to punish people for merely mentioning other boards in the past too. I get that the regulars like the status quo, but it's clearly not working when it comes to attracting and keeping new people. You've got a real opportunity to put that past behind you, start afresh and turn things around here, but it seems that nobody really wants to make any attempt to change anything at all beyond sticking up a new banner. So it seems to me that you don't really have the right to complain about losing people when you don't want to make any effort to keep them.

But you're right, I have wasted enough time here. There are other boards out there that I can contribute to without having to fight against this sort of thing.

 

[Icosahedron]

I don't really want to get dragged into this, but...

It strikes me that the Warning is the official PM mechanism that advises a poster that they may have overstepped the mark (intentionally or not) and asks them to modify their post, so another initial PM should not be necessary.

If the Warning is a 'friendly' warning and is worded as a request rather than a threat, I don't see a problem, but if a Warning contains abusive or inflamatory wording, then I think it should be reported and deserves a warning itself.

If Warnings have no official format, perhaps this is an area for consideration.

If a standard, friendly, positively worded Warning can be issued, with room for a personal comment, then the Warning itself shouldn't be viewed as a threat, and if the personal comment from the moderator is abusive, that can be tackled as a separate issue.

I have to admit that I would feel happier complying with the first of S4's examples rather than the second, though I think the format does need to be a little less 'chatty'. These are perhaps extremes.

Both sides of this discussion seem to want the same thing:
an official but friendly, initial private message - a friendly Warning - to say that a moderator considers a post to have crossed the line - and for that message to result in an apologetic retraction of the potentially offensive material rather than chagrin and further fanning of flames.

Surely something can be worded to achieve this goal?

 

[saundby]

Thanks, Hunter, MWM & Andrew!

I'd like to add thanks for Hunter. This board was here for me when I went looking for a place to discuss CT, and it gave me a place to do so. I brought with me an interest in other editions of Traveller that this board has also catered to. By making this place a "common ground" for Traveller players of all stripes, Hunter went above & beyond for someone who had a specific line of products to sell. It may have been in his commercial interest, but plenty of businessmen don't see things that way and act as if their current line is the only thing of the sort that exists. Here all editions were (are) welcome, and the opportunities for cross comparison and cross germination are rampant. Thanks Hunter!

I'd like to thank MWM for taking on the place. And Andrew for being insufficiently relunctant when an admin was sought.

Changes? I'd like to see a general commercial announcements area. A place where brief announcements with links can be posted about new products, sales, etc. of interest to Traveller players. The posts could include posting by the principals, or by other members (e.g. notes about a great deal someone found that they want to pass along.)

I like the version-specific product announcements, such as those in the MGT area. I'd like to have an area dedicated to things of a more general nature (minis, play aids, etc.)

Other than that, color me happy.

The MGT turmoil got pretty thick for my taste for a while, but that's pretty well in the past IMO, things seem a lot more civil now, at least in the forums I read.

I'm also happier since the Pit was shut off. If you want to give me trouble over politics, PM me and I'll let you know where to meet me. We'll take it outside COTI.

I'll only timidly suggest that some of the vitriol in some of the Trav discussions was a carry-over of passion from Pit discussions. I have no idea whether its the case or not. But, I'm happier without it.

I'll finish by saying thanks again, I like what we've got, and am looking forward to being pleasantly surprised when cool stuff I hadn't even thought of makes COTI even better.

 

[spinwardpirate]

That's probably true now, but there was a time when lots of venting took place.

Possibly. To me the mods over on SJGames' forum seem to be doing a really good job. One thing I really like about their forum, they have a strictly enforced "no flaming other systems" policy. And the mods pay attention to that. Which brings me to my point, I believe the key to any good forum is having exceptional moderators. Mods who don't fall into that category will abuse their powers.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

o:

Do you honestly think that it's "detrimental to the community" here to post a link to another discussion forum that people might be interested in?

No, and that isn't what happened.

But that was then, this is now. Unless you're spamming or being deliberately disruptive you'll be fine.

 

[Spinward Scout]

One thing I really like about their forum, they have a strictly enforced "no flaming other systems" policy.

I'm glad you brought this up.

One man's discussion is another man's flaming. And that's the problem I'm seeing here on the board. Some people try to have a discussion about Mongoose and other people see it as 'flaming' and get petulant or retaliate. Some people think that you're flaming Mongoose if anything you say about Mongoose isn't 110% positive about that version - I've watched it happen just in the last month. The thing is, the same standard isn't held to TNE, T4, MT, or other versions of the game that some people didn't like or think needs to be 'fixed'. In fact, I've seen some great discussions about fixing MT's rules. Nobody gets all indignant and tries to say you're 'flaming' MegaTraveller if you help 'fix' it or say that it needs fixing. And how many people think T4's rules are broken? You can't say the same about the Mongoose rules that you have a problem with because any time someone does, it turns into a 'defend Mongoose Traveller' fest and you get singled out as a 'Mongoose hater'.

It's seriously gone overboard.

:nonono:

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I don't think CotI is really so bad either, so long as one stays away from the Mongoose board

There should be no reason to do that. Please report any offensive posts.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

And I don't see what is so bad or time-consuming about initially sending a PM to someone saying "hey, can you please change your post, it's over the line for (whatever reasons)". It's certainly less threatening than slapping a ticket on their head and branding them with a Warning.

Note that when Warnings or Infractions are given all Mods get to see them. That doesn't happen with PMs.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

As the Mod who gave S4 the most recent Warning that he is complaining about here, let me explain. The rules of the board are very clear in terms of politics outside of the Pit: NO POLITICS OUTSIDE OF THE PIT. Not even as a joke.

Consider this an official policy change:

Jokes are allowed.

Trying to sneak politics in disguised as jokes, or responding with a political comment, is still banned.

 

[Ishmael]

I think the warning system could be improved a bit with a simple change.
Based on the example of a warning given by Colin;

In fact, here is the complete text of my Warning, since you are so inclined to keep flagellating the expired equine:

Post: The Times, They Are A-Changin'
User: Supplement Four
Infraction: Politics/Religion outside the Political Pulpit
Points: 0

Administrative Note:
Quote:
No Politics Outside of the Pit!

Message to User:
Quote:
No, really, I get the point of your note, which is why this is only a warning. But if that comments starts a war I'm gonna Infract the hell out of you. Please edit your post in accordance with the rules of the board.

The offending post is not shown or directly referenced even though the thread is mentioned. I think it would waste the meager time that admins may have to be forced to read through 9 or more pages to find the parts that led to a warning. This could make it difficult for the matter to be discussed or considered by other mods.
How about if there were a link in the warning to the exact post that the mod gave the warning for?
Perhaps it could be generated automatically by an added button on posts that only shows up in moderator accounts to provide a link to that post.
Sent to the offending party, it would show without doubt exactly which post brought about the warning, so that it should prevent ambiguities on that side as well.
__________________

Other than that, many of the problems seem to stem from sophomoric pissing contests which color the perception of this board regardless if they are the norm or not.
Unfortunately, that can't be moderated as its a function of individual personalities and not rules.