The Times, They Are A-Changin'

[CosmicGamer]

No, really, I get the point of your note, which is why this is only a warning. But if that comments starts a war I'm gonna Infract the [?$%?] out of you. Please edit your post in accordance with the rules of the board.

Language!!! My delicate ears!! or eyes?

 

[far-trader]

I think the warning system could be improved a bit with a simple change.
Based on the example of a warning given by Colin...

The offending post is not shown or directly referenced even though the thread is mentioned.

No worry there Ishmael, it is just so. The whole post that is reported for a Warning or Infraction is quoted and linked. Colin didn't quote the whole thing for brevity, just his part in it.

I think it would waste the meager time that admins may have to be forced to read through 9 or more pages to find the parts that led to a warning.

Agreed, it would, but I (and I suspect all the mods) do end up reading (and rereading) much or all of the thread for the context. I think it's important. You won't get that from some mod-bot.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Are you saying a third message is impossible to add to the system?

I expect so. Which other boards have one?

Is this type of thing going to continue in this new era of the board, Andrew?

God, I hope not.

 

[far-trader]

...Changes? I'd like to see a general commercial announcements area. A place where brief announcements with links can be posted about new products, sales, etc. of interest to Traveller players.

Something more than the TAS News on the main page?

I'd like to have an area dedicated to things of a more general nature (minis, play aids, etc.)

So, a general "gaming" forum? Not Traveller specific? Random Static is too... general?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

The thing is, the same standard isn't held to TNE, T4, MT, or other versions of the game that some people didn't like or think needs to be 'fixed'. In fact, I've seen some great discussions about fixing MT's rules. Nobody gets all indignant and tries to say you're 'flaming' MegaTraveller if you help 'fix' it or say that it needs fixing.

The same thing did happen when MT, TNE, and T4 were released.

 

[Gray Lensman]

Imho

I have been reading this thread and decided to weigh-in myself.

BANS/WARNINGS

Doubt I will ever get any, don't care how you handle them.

PULPIT

Let them go to another board with that junk.

COMMERCIAL NEWS

TAS News seems good to me. However, perhaps a Product Review Thread would be in order.

NON TRAVELLER RELATED POSTS

Thought that was what Random Static Thread was for.


Just my nickels worth

 

[CosmicGamer]

How about creating a polite, standard, "request" as a first move then? Something that creates a record like the Warning.

Does there need to be an additional level of response? I agree that the wording of the warning should be more pleasant. Also in some cases, more informative.

Perhaps a nicer renamed notice - call it something other than a warning - would help? [Joke]Might I suggest: "Very nice request to please modify the accidental posting mistake. I'm sure it was your cat walking across the keyboard." [/Joke]

 

[HG_B]

Also, I would like to see more consistency in moderator response; rules should be clarified, and applied and enforced fairly and in the exact same way to everyone regardless of their status or post count. Right now I get the impression of bias in favour of some of the regulars, and it also seems that some of the mods go straight for the jackbooted draconian approach and others are much more reasonable about it, and I would like to see more of the latter.

I don't know exactly what the malady is but it is undeniable that this board has a dearth of posters & new blood compared to some other boards I've seen. Maybe it's a temp situation?

What is that 1st step before change can occur?

 

[Sylvre Phire]

I don't know exactly what the malady is but it is undeniable that this board has a dearth of posters & new blood compared to some other boards I've seen. Maybe it's a temp situation?

What is that 1st step before change can occur?

Admitting there's a problem. Unfortunately, all I've seen is people talking at and past one another.

I'm going to go out on a very tenuous limb here and reiterate a recommendation I made a while back.

Take a look at what RPGNet is doing with its rules, moderation system and staff. Seriously. Take a long hard look at it and compare to how things are run here and what people here are saying about the current status of fair moderation here.

Case in point: I called Aramis out on some uneven modding he did regarding a post advertising a Traveller publication on a board where the editions didn't match up. Basically, he modded it only in the Mongoose board and nowhere else. Far Trader, after sending me a friendly "what's wrong, we're sorry if we've done anything bad" PM about another issue prior to that, then proceeded to chide me for doing that and accused me of stirring up trouble. o:

Yeah, that's right, I'm airing dirty laundry. What a surprise.

In order for this board to reform, there has to be a genuine want to change, not just a need to change. I'm not seeing the want. Just using the software isn't enough. You have to move beyond that to see the human factors. RPGNet has done that. That's why you'll find people complimenting and thanking the mods and complimenting the nature of the board on Trouble Tickets there.

I've said what I have to say. If you want to ban me for it, fine. But the truth is here in black and white, folks. If you want CotI to live and grow, there has to be tolerance on both sides of the fence. There has to be some change here.

I'm done.

Dale

 

[HG_B]

Admitting there's a problem. Unfortunately, all I've seen is people talking at and past one another.

Well, the type response or, lack thereof to your post will probably tell the story.

 

[Thunderbolt]

I think a site makeover would be nice; I know it's just chrome, but it might help to bolster the sense of the new era...

 

[Spinward Scout]

But the truth is here in black and white, folks. If you want CotI to live and grow, there has to be tolerance on both sides of the fence. There has to be some change here.

Thanks for posting that!

Yup, the truth is there. Plainly for everyone to see:

From the RPGnet rules

Rule 0: This is a privately owned board. Our word is law. None of the following rules give away that right. Despite that, we strive to be reasonable.

Same as it is here.

Almost all of the other rules begin with the word 'Respect'. If you don't respect someone's opinion, why do you expect anyone to respect yours?

And here are the guidelines for posting on RPGnet

1) Be polite. Try to be considerate. Make some basic attempt at using proper capitalization, punctuation, spelling and grammar, because they all aid in communication. Use profanity as a spice, not the main course. HTML has been disabled, please use vBulletin's own codes instead.

2) Don't threadjack. Derailing a thread's conversation is a good way to annoy the thread's creator and everyone else involved in the conversation. If you absolutely need to discuss something else, find an appropriate thread for your topic or start your own.

3) Don't threadcrap. If you wish to correct what you see as an error or fallacy in the initial post of a thread, that's fine, but if you have a problem with the basic premise of a discussion such that you wish it weren't taking place at all, ignore it. Don't tell everyone in the thread they're wasting their time discussing the issue, because if they agreed with you, they wouldn't be discussing the issue.

4) Think before you post. It can sometimes be hard to determine where acceptable conversation ends and attacks or other rules violations begin, especially in the heat of a debate. If you are unsure whether a post might cross the line, feel free to PM a moderator or administrator for advice — especially before making a post you might regret later.

5) Do not post just to increase your posts count without actually saying anything relevant. Just because you aren't selling something doesn't mean it isn't spamming. (If you just can’t help yourself, there are threads set up specifically for this that are noted as such.) Please do not post articles, news stories, blog posts, etc. without comment.

6) The rules above also apply to the content of thread tags, social groups (and their related discussions) and profile comments.

You see, #3 really should apply here on this board. If people followed that ONE RULE, most of the recent arguments on the board may not have even taken place. The last sentence in the rule is very important.

 

[Supplement Four]

I expect so. Which other boards have one?

I don't know. I've never gotten a Warning at any other board. Never.

Which tells me, since I do participate regularly on three other boards (including the Mongoose board, in the Conan forum, which is moderated unlike the Traveller forum), that there is something wrong with the way the moderation on this board is being done.

God, I hope not.

That's actually, really, really funny. Thanks for the laugh.

Case in point: I called Aramis out on some uneven modding he did...

To support what Sylvre Phire is saying, I can point at a recent example, too.

Far Trader gave me a Warning because of what I said in this post: Buck Rogers Webcomic Post #33 .

The offending line was: "Well..:file_19:...if we go what what you and Wil are saying, that CT doesn't have a small craft design system (even a simple one), then Loren is lying to us when he wrote that everything we need to play Traveller is already in the game."


First, I find it hard to believe that sentence is so offensive that it deserves a Warning. Yet, Far Trader did. We had several discussions about it, and in his opinion, I definitely deserved a Warning for writing that.

Would that have earned a Warning on any other board?

I think not.

If something like that is so offensive that it deserves a Warning, then we all had better start wallking on egg shells and hope that any mod that happens to be in the thread discussing topics with us be in a good mood that day.

If what I wrote in the Buck Rogers thread is so offensive that it deserves a Warning, then so is what Colin wrote in this very thread just upstream a bit:

In fact, here is the complete text of my Warning, since you are so inclined to keep flagellating the expired equine...:

Yet, Colin didn't receive a Warning for writing something insulting, telling me that I'm "flagellating the expired equine" the way I did when I made the remark that if both Aramis and Far Trader are correct about what they said in the other thread then Loren is lying to us with what he wrote in his article.

Uneven, unfair modding practices.

This should change in this new era of the board. It's gone on too long.

 

[Colin]

Speaking for me, and not in any sort of official capacity, these are some of things that I see wrong here. In general, the place is not overly open to newcomers, especially those who come here via Mongoose Traveller. There is a certain level of hostility towards MongTrav by a large number of people who have been here more than a few years, mostly out a perception that Mongoose didn't do it "right". This typically means "Didn't do the way I wanted them to do it." Many of them seem to take it personally, which is one of the biggest issues I see on this board. People take slights against their favourite version personally. Very personally, at times.

There are four active moderators on this board, and two more less-active. The board needs more. Moderators need more descriptive categories that are aligned with the posted board rules.

Some people don't get why religious/political posts are so wrong. They make jokes, and think that it is fine, and seem genuinely puzzled when called on it. The reason the board is neutral on these topics is because we want to create an environment welcoming to all, regardless of political affiliation, or religious association. Or race, gender, or sexual orientation, for that matter. Especially now, moving forward, we have to get away from the idea the Citizens of the Imperium forum is some sort of "Old Boy's Club", and make it genuinely more accepting of newcomers, to the game (Mongoose Traveller), or to these boards.

We haven't succeeded. CotI is known throughout the net, in places where people talk about Traveller, as "that board", the hangout of the grognards and the talifans. Where "n00bs" are eaten alive. There is, unfortunately, some justification for this. That needs to stop.

CotI is now the home for all versions of Traveller, to discuss our favourite game. Let's see if we can make it a community. The Mods have an important role to play here, but so do the citizens. With citizenship comes the responsibility to uphold the rules of the community. If they think the rules are wrong, they can lobby to change them, but until that time, the rules must still be upheld.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Yet, Colin didn't receive a Warning for writing something insulting, telling me that I'm "flagellating the expired equine"

Huh? You find it insulting that a Moderator, whose job it is to tell you that you're beating a dead horse, told you that you're beating a dead horse?

o:

:rofl:

EDIT: sorry, I forgot he doesn't want to be called a Moderator

 

[Supplement Four]

Huh? You find it insulting that a Moderator, whose job it is to tell you that you're beating a dead horse, told you that you're beating a dead horse?

o:

:rofl:

Yes, especially when I think its a serious issue that needs to be discussed and fixed...and not swept under the carpet under the guise of a "dead horse".

 

[Colin]

I really don't have time for this, but what the heck.

I called you on a clear violation of the board rules. Crystal clear. One clear enough that I would have been justified in issuing an Infraction. I did not, and instead issued a warning, which was removed when you edited your post. My warning to you was perhaps not overly polite, but neither was it insulting. It was simply direct, with a warning of further action should your comment cause problems. That was it. Yet you continue to bang away at this.

As for you not get Warnings on other boards, really, I have no information on that. Here, however, you have four pages of Warnings, Infractions, and Bans. From a variety of Moderators. The four of us are very different in our approaches, by the way, yet we all see problems with many of your posts.

And you are beating a dead horse. Repeatedly. With a stick.

Get this straight. YOU WERE WRONG. You violated the rule about politics outside of the pit, and got a warning for it. Accept responsibility for your actions, and move on. You remediated your actions as requested, but are now going on about how unfair it was. It wasn't. You broke a rule you agreed to abide by. If I had sent you a PM, we would still be having an argument about it, because this has all happened before with you.

I don't know. I've never gotten a Warning at any other board. Never.

Which tells me, since I do participate regularly on three other boards (including the Mongoose board, in the Conan forum, which is moderated unlike the Traveller forum), that there is something wrong with the way the moderation on this board is being done.





That's actually, really, really funny. Thanks for the laugh.







To support what Sylvre Phire is saying, I can point at a recent example, too.

Far Trader gave me a Warning because of what I said in this post: Buck Rogers Webcomic Post #33 .

The offending line was: "Well..:file_19:...if we go what what you and Wil are saying, that CT doesn't have a small craft design system (even a simple one), then Loren is lying to us when he wrote that everything we need to play Traveller is already in the game."


First, I find it hard to believe that sentence is so offensive that it deserves a Warning. Yet, Far Trader did. We had several discussions about it, and in his opinion, I definitely deserved a Warning for writing that.

Would that have earned a Warning on any other board?

I think not.

If something like that is so offensive that it deserves a Warning, then we all had better start wallking on egg shells and hope that any mod that happens to be in the thread discussing topics with us be in a good mood that day.

If what I wrote in the Buck Rogers thread is so offensive that it deserves a Warning, then so is what Colin wrote in this very thread just upstream a bit:



Yet, Colin didn't receive a Warning for writing something insulting, telling me that I'm "flagellating the expired equine" the way I did when I made the remark that if both Aramis and Far Trader are correct about what they said in the other thread then Loren is lying to us with what he wrote in his article.

Uneven, unfair modding practices.

This should change in this new era of the board. It's gone on too long.

 

[Supplement Four]

Speaking for me, and not in any sort of official capacity, these are some of things that I see wrong here. In general, the place is not overly open to newcomers, especially those who come here via Mongoose Traveller. There is a certain level of hostility towards MongTrav by a large number of people who have been here more than a few years, mostly out a perception that Mongoose didn't do it "right". This typically means "Didn't do the way I wanted them to do it."

I admit that I have been guilty of this in the past. I was very hopeful that Mongoose would "get it right", and when I saw that they didn't, it disappointed me to no end.

You may not have noticed, though, that, for a long time now, I've made a conscious effort not to get into the Mongoose Flame Wars. I just stay away from the topics.

And, I've been trying to look at Mongoose's efforts with Traveller through more opened eyes. I still don't like the version, but I don't advertise that as much.

I changed my behavior because I realized that it wasn't good for the board--and really no other reason than that.

There are four active moderators on this board, and two more less-active. The board needs more. Moderators need more descriptive categories that are aligned with the posted board rules.

This is another point I haven't brought up. I have received Warnings for breaking no rules on the board. In the mod's opinion, I've done something "wrong", and he squeezes what I did into a category that doesn't fit.

If there's no category, then I've broken no law. Yet, I still got the Warning.

The mods should not be giving Warnings and then squeezing the perceived offence into a category that doesn't fit the perceived crime. Mods aren't Judge Dred. They should live by the rules, too.

Some people don't get why religious/political posts are so wrong. They make jokes, and think that it is fine, and seem genuinely puzzled when called on it.

Don't forget that Andrew just made a policy change and said jokes are fine.

 

[Colin]

I admit that I have been guilty of this in the past. I was very hopeful that Mongoose would "get it right", and when I saw that they didn't, it disappointed me to no end.

And this is what I mean. They didn't get it "right" In your opinion Not everyone shares your opinion (or mine).

You may not have noticed, though, that, for a long time now, I've made a conscious effort not to get into the Mongoose Flame Wars. I just stay away from the topics.

And, I've been trying to look at Mongoose's efforts with Traveller through more opened eyes. I still don't like the version, but I don't advertise that as much.

I changed my behavior because I realized that it wasn't good for the board--and really no other reason than that.

Yeah, I've noticed. Others have taken up the slack, though.

This is another point I haven't brought up. I have received Warnings for breaking no rules on the board. In the mod's opinion, I've done something "wrong", and he squeezes what I did into a category that doesn't fit.

If there's no category, then I've broken no law. Yet, I still got the Warning.

No. You have broken board rules, but the rules do not necessarily align with the categories. That is something that needs to be fixed.

The mods should not be giving Warnings and then squeezing the perceived offence into a category that doesn't fit the perceived crime. Mods aren't Judge Dred. They should live by the rules, too.

Since one of the Mods helped to write the rules, I think that we are likely on solid ground there..

Don't forget that Andrew just made a policy change and said jokes are fine.

I doubt that is applies to political jokes that call over half of your country "idiots", but I have asked for clarification.

 

[far-trader]

Don't forget that Andrew just made a policy change and said jokes are fine.

Nice try. Read that again:

Consider this an official policy change:

Jokes are allowed.

Trying to sneak politics in disguised as jokes, or responding with a political comment, is still banned.

See the bit about political comment still being a no-no?