The Times, They Are A-Changin'

[HG_B]

Personally, I think you are being over-the-top about all this, and that you need to calm down. But, that's me. Maybe it's just that I haven't seen what you've seen. But I'm willing to accept that possibility. Are you?

I've been playing the game since its inception. For the last couple of years I've heard from several friends that this board is modded like a certain defunct Western/Central EU regime. I don't and haven't heard ANYWHERE near the same level of mod angst regarding other boards. Also, the traffic level here is shocking low for what this board represents. Like I stated earlier; The 1st step.

Nothing else I can add to that.

 

[Colin]

Sheer bloody-mindedness. My issue with CotI was with QLI as a corporate entity, and thus Hunter Gordon. Since he is out of the picture, I have no problem being involved with the board again. In fact, until I heard that he was gone, I did have nothing to do with the board. I read a little, but that's about it. I stuck mostly to the Mongoose board.

Why am I still involved? I've been playing Traveller since 1982, and I've played all the versions except T4. Traveller doesn't get a lot of respect from the wider role-playing community, but I've always had a soft spot for it. I like Traveller, but Traveller communities, like the TML, seem to be very exclusive, and often even hostile, to new people and new ideas. I've seen that on CotI as well. As the only Mod who has much use for Mongoose Traveller (yes, I like it, but yes, I think it could be improved too), I've taken an interest in fostering that aspect of the hobby and the community. Someone who is interested in this game should have their interests supported, not denigrated because he chose the "wrong" version of the game.

Colin, I have to ask: why are you still a moderator here? I ask because I have noticed this at the top of the Website Issues board saying that you'd resigned as such:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=21755


That was posted in February of this year. If that's the case, then why are you still here dishing out warnings? Given your experience here (particularly as someone who was badly let down by the previous owner), why are you even still on this board at all? If anything I would have thought that you'd have left long ago. I would have thought that you could actually get your wish now, since there is an active admin who can remove your moderator status.

I don't mean any disrespect by asking, but I am curious as to why you apparently choose to remain part of the system here given that you clearly don't want to be.

 

[Supplement Four]

A good start (and this applies to everyone) would be to stop dragging up old arguments. We'll never move on otherwise.

We've all made mistakes in the past. I have no doubt we'll make more in the future. But let's at least give each other a chance to change.

That sounds very good to me.

I have no problem wiping the slate clean--even with Aramis. If Colin and Dan and Wil agree, I'll forget and ignore everything that's gone on in the past, turn the page, and start off on a new foot.

Do you three agree?



And, Andrew, where do you stand on changing the wording of the Warning to a less confrontational message?

 

[travlar]

In the past, that never worked. I tried it several times. You either get no answer, or you get all the mods scratching each others backs, backing each other up (like what you see in this thread).

This is why I'm hopeful that the Andrew appeal process will be fair and just.

Now, I have no idea what these situations you're talking about were, so perhaps I shouldn't say anything, but: Have you considered that rather than the mods all scratching each other's backs, that they might all (or most) honestly think that the mod you reported was in the right? Or at least not sufficiently in the wrong? I know that if I were a mod, I wouldn't want to overule a fellow mod if I it was just on the edge.

You may have been completely right in those cases, but you might want to consider what I'm saying. You seem somewhat emotional about all this, which I can completely understand, but it might be clouding your judgement a bit. Or maybe not. Just another thing to consider.

 

[Gray Lensman]

I couldn't agree more

A good start (and this applies to everyone) would be to stop dragging up old arguments. We'll never move on otherwise.

As if this is the only thread in the past year that as devolved into this very same argument. Very tiring.

 

[Sylvre Phire]

The reaction you are seeing is the epitaph of this site. I'm shocked that Marc would be involved with this type of situation. But, facts are facts. Sad.

At this point, it is on Marc's shoulders. He has to decide what kind of public face he wants Traveller to have. One is known by their friends and confidants. I hope PR is one of his strengths ...

True and true. Unfortunately, I've never seen Marc post here. His input into this would be of great benefit to both the board and the Traveller community at large - especially if this board wants to renew its relevance.

The mods are still acting the way they've always have. Let's give Andrew a chance and see if he can't improve this place a bit.

I know I'm willing to work with him.

As am I. Andrew, expect a PM from me sometime this weekend.

You know you can hit 'Report Post' on something a Mod has typed, right? So... lodge a formal complaint by reporting the offender. If you feel insulted in a post, make a formal report. I can't say I haven't rolled my eyes about things the Mods have done.

Unfortunately, that's what I did with regard to the issue I mentioned earlier. All I got for it was an accusation of being a troublemaker.

I'm not sure how that will work. Probably like when issues used to be escalated to Hunter.

Users need to be able to appeal directly to the Admin. Leaving such appeals to be delivered to the Admin by the Mods is not an acceptable procedure.

The Mods are just as human as you and I and also can have emotional outbursts. As I said, click the Report Post if you feel what someone did was inappropriate. Make it formal.

While mods are definitely human, they need to hold themselves to a slightly higher standard with regard to how they judge situations and moderate things here. Letting one's emotions have too much play is detrimental.

Yes, there could be better ways to handle some situations. Sometimes it's better just to post your opinion and move on to something else to let the information trickle and be processed.

All in all, I think continuing to argue about it isn't going to solve anything. You've stated your opinions. And I hope you'll be listened to and not just dismissed out of hand. There's nothing really you can do but wait.

True. That and pray.

Err... do you realize that the people "who have illegitimate gripes and axes to grind against the modsquad's noses" probably think their complaints are legitimate? Just like you think yours are? How do you actually know for sure that yours aren't "illegitimate gripes and axes to grind against the modsquad's noses"?

Actually, I've been witness to more people trying to bait the mods and grind their axes in RPGNet's Trouble Tickets than I have to those who have legitimate concerns and complaints that are actually addressed. And yes, mine are legitimate. If you're going to moderate a post for being in the wrong forum, you should do it across the board. The publication in question applied to Classic Traveller, but showed up in all the edition boards here. Aramis only modded the post in the Mongoose board, showing his bias.

Personally, I think you are being over-the-top about all this, and that you need to calm down. But, that's me.

And unfortunately, you're wrong. If this board is meant to be the central nexus of Traveller discussion on the Internet, there needs to be some big changes made. Traveller is a niche game in a niche hobby, which means its survival depends upon having a healthy community moreso than other games. Sadly, this forum is toxic. The community has already lost one writer - Martin Dougherty - because of the snark here as well as other politics. Call me over the top if you want, but that's the truth of the matter here.

Maybe it's just that I haven't seen what you've seen.

That's exactly what it is.

But I'm willing to accept that possibility. Are you?

Yes.

Dale

 

[travlar]

Actually, I've been witness to more people trying to bait the mods and grind their axes in RPGNet's Trouble Tickets than I have to those who have legitimate concerns and complaints that are actually addressed. And yes, mine are legitimate. If you're going to moderate a post for being in the wrong forum, you should do it across the board. The publication in question applied to Classic Traveller, but showed up in all the edition boards here. Aramis only modded the post in the Mongoose board, showing his bias.

Okay, I must be missing something here. I have a vague memory of that incident, but I don't remember any specifics, so I'm probably missing something obvious. But how does his modding only the post in the Mongoose board show a bias? And what bias would that show? Only dealing with that one seems rather strange to me, unless he thought it fit with the other editions but not MgT (thought I've no idea how that would be the case). Strange, but not biased. So what have I forgotten?

 

[Spinward Scout]

I'm discussing what needs to be changed on this board to make it a better place. The mods seem to be looking to keep things the way they are.

Obviously, we have problems here. I'm not the only one who feels the way I do. I've known many who've quit the board just because of the treatment they've received from the mods here.

I'm genuinely trying to make the place a better place for all of us.

Sorry, I deleted that out of my post. That wasn't exactly what I wanted to say. It's great that you want to make this better. I just don't think arguing is going to accomplish that. I've known some people who have quit the board, too. I've also know a couple who left with a swift kick to the back of their pants (including myself for 6 months). I've seen a couple of them on other boards and to be honest, there was never that kind of animosity on this board until the Pit opened. So some of those people that left weren't here for Traveller. There's definitely some bad blood that needs to be dealt with before the board can really move on.

In the past, that never worked. I tried it several times. You either get no answer, or you get all the mods scratching each others backs, backing each other up (like what you see in this thread).

Well, then it's good that we brought it up. Hopefully this thread will get a long review of everything that's been said.

I don't know if it should have been public, but it sure let me know that, at that time, that Hunter had a sense of fairness.

That's definitely a good thing. And we know that Andrew has been pretty fair over the years. Now I think we need to give him a chance to digest all of this and make sure we don't overwhelm him right from the start. I'm hoping that he'll appoint some assistant admins to help take the load off. It'll be much better for the board in the long run.

 

[Sylvre Phire]

Okay, I must be missing something here. I have a vague memory of that incident, but I don't remember any specifics, so I'm probably missing something obvious. But how does his modding only the post in the Mongoose board show a bias? And what bias would that show? Only dealing with that one seems rather strange to me, unless he thought it fit with the other editions but not MgT (thought I've no idea how that would be the case). Strange, but not biased. So what have I forgotten?

Yes, you are missing something obvious. The publication was for Classic Traveller and was being advertised for that particular edition. That he only modded and locked the thread in the Mongoose board shows his bias against MgT as well as shows he was trying to pick at the few MgT fans remaining here. Aramis has made it quite clear he does not like MgT, which is all good and fine. The problem is that he has done so in an abrasive, abusive way. Furthermore, he has not hesitated to wield his mod power against anyone who complains about it.

At this point, Travalar, I get the feeling you're baiting me into a trap. I refuse to discuss particular mods any more in this thread and will only discuss such individuals with Andrew.

Dale

 

[travlar]

Yes, you are missing something obvious. The publication was for Classic Traveller and was being advertised for that particular edition. That he only modded and locked the thread in the Mongoose board shows his bias against MgT as well as shows he was trying to pick at the few MgT fans remaining here. Aramis has made it quite clear he does not like MgT, which is all good and fine. The problem is that he has done so in an abrasive, abusive way. Furthermore, he has not hesitated to wield his mod power against anyone who complains about it.

At this point, Travalar, I get the sense that you're baiting me into a trap. I refuse to discuss particular mods anymore in this thread and will only discuss such individuals with Andrew.

Dale

I fail to see how that shows his bias against MgT. It's a publication for Classic Traveller, and being advertised as such. It's posted in every edition's forum. Aramis locked only the one in the MgT forum. The others he apparently ignored, or somehow didn't see. That doesn't look particularly biased to me. I don't see how being biased against MgT would make him more likely to do that. In fact, I still cannot think of any reason for him to have done that.

Anyway, as far as I know, I'm not baiting you into a trap, but you certainly don't need to respond or anything. You certainly have the right to not discuss such things with me, and I have no problem with it. I hope all of this is dealt with in a way everyone is fine with.

 

[Supplement Four]

That sounds very good to me.

I have no problem wiping the slate clean--even with Aramis. If Colin and Dan and Wil agree, I'll forget and ignore everything that's gone on in the past, turn the page, and start off on a new foot.

Do you three agree?



And, Andrew, where do you stand on changing the wording of the Warning to a less confrontational message?

I hope my questions don't go unanswered.

 

[abomination]

Guys, it's all very easy.

Just remember - It's a game. It's not real. It really doesn't matter. If you don't agree with someone, so what? You probably won't change thier opinion. It certainly won't change whether you pay the mortgage or get a new job. No one will die.

So just relax.

 

[Sylvre Phire]

Guys, it's all very easy.

Just remember - It's a game. It's not real. It really doesn't matter. If you don't agree with someone, so what? You probably won't change thier opinion. It certainly won't change whether you pay the mortgage or get a new job. No one will die.

So just relax.

That's what we keep trying to tell people, but such individuals keep going on about their "Olde Game" and how it's being "ruined". There's only so many times one can repeat the statement you made before one decides to chuck the pleasantries into the fire and either leave or lay into said individual(s).

Dale

 

[Spinward Scout]

That's what we keep trying to tell people, but such individuals keep going on about their "Olde Game" and how it's being "ruined".

Can you point me in the direction of those comments? Do you know which threads these comments were made in? I'd really like to see everything that's being said.

 

[HG_B]

Can you point me in the direction of those comments? Do you know which threads these comments were made in? I'd really like to see everything that's being said.

The search function should point you in the right direction.

 

[BlackBat242]

Unfortunately, I've never seen Marc post here.

Dale

Here's one: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=353207&postcount=1

 

[Blue Ghost]

There is one feature I'd like to see improved, and that is the posting history currently only lets you go back to your personal 300 posts. Ergo, I have to be really inventive to hunt down some of my own rants from when I first registered here nearly ten years ago. It's doable, but you have to put in specific search terms that only you know you posted, and then dig through the archives.

Another feature would be something like a personal book mark thing for your profile. That way you don't have to clutter your browser with Traveller links. You have one COTI link, go there, access your profile, then you see al your Traveller online goodness.

Just my two credits' worth of conjuring. Use these digital reagents as you see fit

 

[aramis]

There is one feature I'd like to see improved, and that is the posting history currently only lets you go back to your personal 300 posts. Ergo, I have to be really inventive to hunt down some of my own rants from when I first registered here nearly ten years ago. It's doable, but you have to put in specific search terms that only you know you posted, and then dig through the archives.

You can use the search feature with bounding dates to get a list of a particular user's posts in any given date range... not just the most recent few hundred.

 

[jappel]

You can also use Google (and perhaps other search engines) to locate specific posts on the site. On Google, just enter your search terms and then enter "site:www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/" without the quotes to have it crawl the forum.

 

[Finarvyn]

That's what we keep trying to tell people, but such individuals keep going on about their "Olde Game" and how it's being "ruined".

I'll confess that I haven't noticed these posts, and I can see where repeated comments on the same thing can get tiring, but isn't that why we have so many different sections of the board?

If (for example) a person doesn't like Mongoose Traveller, then that person shouldn't read threads in that section and certainly shouldn't post there to complain about it. If folks only post in the sections where they enjoy the system, their games shoudn't be "ruined" so often.

I know that I only visit about half of the sections here because I visit the places that match the versions of the game I like. I just ignore the other sections and am okay with that.

Just my two centicredits.