The Universe is not flat!!!

[BetterThanLife]

Important question is this, how many of these stars have planets? How many can support life as we know it? Notice that all of the stars presented in OTU have a planet that is at least marginally habitable or a Gas Giant or a source of water. There are Major systems with just an Asteroid belt but nothing says those systems don't have a habitable world. The rest of the stars might be just stars. Without a reason to go there there is no reason to catalog them on a map.

So for them to be on a map there usually would have to be a gas giant, or water or a habitable planet. The "Secret Naval Fuel depot" in Reft sector is probably anchored to a star without planets. After all you have to know where to come out of Jump. If habitable planets were around every star then Men In Black would only be scratching the surface.

If we limit our maps, and gaming to places of interest then it stays manageable. Very few of the mapped systems don't have a fuel source. In those rare cases I would guess the main world is something extrodianary or is close to another world that wanted resources.

 

[Malenfant]

It's hard to imagine any system that doesn't have some source of hydrogen fuel - even if it's just in the form of some iceballs in the Oort Cloud.

But yeah, there are definitely plenty of stars missing from the OTU maps. In reality, practically every hex should have some kind of stellar or substellar object in it.

As for the real stars though... we know that a some of them do actually have planets or planet-like objects in the form of jovians and/or brown dwarfs.

 

[Commander Drax]

I remember reading a press release from GDW before they went bust, one of the things stated in the said release was that sector/subsector maps only show the location of inhabited systems, and that most people see empty hexes and naturally enough assume its empty space, in most cases it is, but there are many star systems and worlds that for whatever reason have not yet been settled, or in some cases not yet explored. (good work for the scouts), hence IMTU, the imperium of 11,000 worlds is just that, 11,000 worlds, many more stars exist, so after all what's wrong with 400,000.

Hope it helps.

 

[Malenfant]

That has a lot of implications for Deep Space Jumps though - largely because it gives you a convenient spot to build a refueling base or calibration point somewhere, plus it could also make for a good trading post/hopping off point between distant systems.

And if the DSJ depots are around stars that aren't on the map, they aren't going to be particularly secret, since stars can easily be detected.

 

[BetterThanLife]

With the number of stars that aren't mapped, how will you know which one? If there is no fuel there and you go there can you get back if it isn't there? Especially if it is somplace like within Reft Sector.Just because there is a star there, I think we have already concluded that there are lots of stars out there, doesn't mean you are going to know which star it is anchored to.

While many stars will have something orbiting, that doesn't mean something useful orbiting.

 

[Malenfant]

Good point.

 

[Commander Drax]

Then you'll just have to do it the old fashioned way and find something in the ort cloud that surrounds nearly all starsystems, a floating ice chunk perhaps.

But if there are many uninhabited systems between the settled worlds showing on a map, isn't that a benefit to the referee and players who like exploration. It makes sense really, as in the expansion of any interstellar empire there would be places, simply scanned, by passed and perhaps tagged for future reference. As for hopping into an 'empty hex' without knowing whats there, I would recommend that you employ your big passive array before making a jump (standard practice anyway) and direct at the region of space you intend to jump into. It will instantly tell you if a star is present and over time (days, months etc) could reliably tell you if it was a binary or trinary system etc and give you an estimate of any large planets such as gas giants in system.

It strikes me that these empty hexes if they contain something make great locations for corsair bases and the like.

Happy Hunting.

 

[Straybow]

If this milieu were relatively fresh I could see hexes between main routes and isolated colonies going unexplored for decades or centuries. Exploring at the lacadaisical pace of one "empty" hex per century in each subsector would exhaust the candidates in a couple millennia. Would've been largely completed in the first imperium period.

Supposing the Vilani just didn't have that little speck of motivation, the enterprising Solarian conquerers would. There should certainly be no unexplored radiant stars, not to mention brown dwarfs or rogue gas giants (which no doubt far outnumber stars).

 

[Malenfant]

Thing is, even if the stars and other stuff in the empty hexes aren't inhabited, there's no reason to not mark them on the maps. Heck, there are a few systems that are marked on the map that are totally uninhabited...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Not many. Ganulph comes immediately to mind. (Adventure 4.) I would think that those taht aren't mapped have nothing of significance there. Lack of fuel, lack of habitible world and lack of gas giants. Now being from Terra, perhaps we can't fathom this but not all stars will have things orbiting them. They may have started that way, then again perhaps they didn't. Perhaps they started as part of a binary and escaped orbit. Perhaps a bigger star passing close by sucked them away, perhaps the Ancients moved it to create a Ring World someplace else or a Dyson Sphere. Star expanded and retracted and destroyed everything in orbit. Just because we have things here doesn't mean they are everywhere. Matter of fact it doesn't even mean that we are typical. we could be the exception not the rule. (And until we travel to the stars we will never know.)

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Thing is, even if the stars and other stuff in the empty hexes aren't inhabited, there's no reason to not mark them on the maps. Heck, there are a few systems that are marked on the map that are totally uninhabited...

 

[Malenfant]

Just because we have things here doesn't mean they are everywhere. Matter of fact it doesn't even mean that we are typical. we could be the exception not the rule. (And until we travel to the stars we will never know.)

You seem to be forgetting a tiny little thing called "observational astronomy"

So far, we've discovered 110 jovians, superjovians, and brown dwarfs in about 100 systems, and plenty of strange system configurations (jovians in torch orbits, or eccentric orbits within the snow line). When the next generation of space telescopes go up, we'll find smaller earth-sized worlds, and theoretically at least so far there seems to be no reason why plenty of stars shouldn't have them.

 

[Straybow]

I believe there has been one rogue gas giant or brown dwarf observed via occultation.

As for stars with planets, most stars show a significant deficit of angular momentum from gas/dust bodies from which they would typically form. Planets carry more angular momentum than the star&#151Earth's orbital momentum by itself is nearly as great as Sol's rotational momentum, and Jupiter's is far higher.

 

[Malenfant]

We know of one solo BD near us -
LP 944-20, about 16 lightyears away from Sol.

 

[Drakon]

"320 parsecs Rimward to Coreward. About 510 Parsecs Spinward to Trailing."

That comes out to 1,043.2 lt yrs Rimward to Coreward, and 1,662.6 lt yrs Spinward to Trailing.

The galactic disk in this region of the galaxy is reported to be 2,000 lt yrs thick. Which means the entire expanse of known space could be set on its end and still fit within the disk.

Something to think about. Personally would love to go 3D. Think it would be more interesting, and more fun, as well as lowers my threshold for disbelief.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I didn't say plenty of stars don't have planets. Far from it. I merely suggested that many stars may not have anything significant around them. As for fuel in the Oort cloud or comet belt. THe problem with that is the time it takes to get there, especially if you are low on fuel. Planets that can't support life as we know it (even with terraforming) are other systems that we would have no real use for in Traveller unless there is something else there to draw our interest. And a third reason that things might not make the map is that we can't get there under the current Jump Drive. Various game systems and fiction have planets that can't be reached, because of one reason or another, through FTL travel.

Just a thought. I am not advocating that the Traveller maps are the end all and be all of the real universe. I am pointing out that they tend to keep the game system playable and manageble.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Just because we have things here doesn't mean they are everywhere. Matter of fact it doesn't even mean that we are typical. we could be the exception not the rule. (And until we travel to the stars we will never know.)

You seem to be forgetting a tiny little thing called "observational astronomy"

So far, we've discovered 110 jovians, superjovians, and brown dwarfs in about 100 systems, and plenty of strange system configurations (jovians in torch orbits, or eccentric orbits within the snow line). When the next generation of space telescopes go up, we'll find smaller earth-sized worlds, and theoretically at least so far there seems to be no reason why plenty of stars shouldn't have them. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Commander Drax]

What you've got to consider is that first and foremost the Imperium is a mercantile empire, starmaps available to the general public would for reasons of public safety and control of mercantile shipping only list systems of value, e.g places where you could refuel or trade or even develop. Many starsystems regardless of what they contain are radiation minefields and would probably sterilise a typical starship in minutes (much like the radiation belts around Jupiter), and whilst technically possible to develop, are probably not cost effective to do so. In fact there may be a variety of reasons why some starsystems are simply bypassed. To return to my original post, I am not saying that every empty hex contains something, because by and large they dont, but the GDW press release did say, that maps of the imperium only showed inhabited systems. Dont forget many pop zero worlds are still inhabited it's just that the people living there are not permanent residents according to the imperial census.

 

[Drakon]

Umm... then why print Red zone and Amber zone systems if you don't want folks to get there? It seems leaving them off the map would be a smarter move. Putting them on the map seems to be an attractant for the very behavior you want to avoid.

Perhaps those zones are so obvious that leaving them off the maps would be too telling. And THAT would make them more attractive.

Oh heck, asking and answering my own questions.

 

[Straybow]

Sirius would be one of those "radiation minefields" and it is on the map with inhabited planets.

yeah, i know, nobody likes a smartass