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The Universe

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Hi Mal,

I applaud your grasp of matters astronomical and I think it's wonderful to have someone here with your depth of knowledge.

All I was saying is that if you are extremely passionate about good science (as you are), then you are more likely to win over people by employing courtesy than by using blunt instruments. You can act nice and smart - the two are not mutually exclusive.

If it really does matter to you what people on these boards think about you, then being polite ought to be an imperative.

It's not rocket science


Ravs
 
I am an accredited scientist. I have a degree from an accredited university in chemistry with a minor in mathematics and physics. I have been doing analytical and research work for my entire career. And I'm damned good at my job. (Dave E. Coyote, Genius.)

I also get riled up when the media or the government does something based on "science," or that is "scientifically proven" and it's actually nothing of the sort. I'm actually kinda touchy on the subject.

And I found NOTHING inflammatory about Aramis' original statement. Ignorant of the actual meaning of the word in a narrow scientific method context, perhaps, but not an attack on science.

And that's because science must stand on its own, irregardless of attack or not_attack. The term "QED" (thus it is proved) applies to science as in no other field because if you can't prove it to the thousands of expert skeptics, it isn't a scientific finding.

These days, especially, in the post-cold-fusion era (and the university I work for, Texas A&M, was part of that fiasco; not my department, fortunately
), the scientist has to not only create a reproducible result, it must be multiply confirmed by other scientists before it's accepted into the general scientific community as a proven hypothesis a.k.a. theory.

My program, the Integrated Ocean Drilling Program, is in the forefront of geological research. We are literally discovering things that have never been seen before by living human beings, and that creates a ton of theories - scratch that, hypotheses - which turn out to be bad assumptions. A simple example is the relationship to seismic sounding data to what's actually in the formation. In one of our recent cruises to the mid-Atlantic, we drilled into a formation called the Atlantis Massif (IODP Expedition 304/305) with the hope that we would drill into unaltered mantle material.

The seismics showed a promising velocity change at a certain depth, and the proponents put forth the idea - the hypothesis - that this was where we'd get into the unaltered gabbros and peridiotites. Testing that hypothesis by actually drilling into the region of the reflector, we discovered that no, it wasn't what was assumed, and that a combination of complex (chaotic) factors led to that reflector. Doing downhole seismic shots (what we call a vertical seismic profile) and comparing that to the hard rock core recovered, we discovered a very different situation from that which was proposed.

And that's how it is with science. The proponents had a ton of data that supported their hypothesis. It seemed sound (although there were others who interpreted the same data differently). It was assumed true for operational drilling considerations (that's a factor of the proponents convincing our governing science panels of the worth of their proposal; i.e., politics). And it was disproved by actual drilling and core analysis.

And now they have new hypotheses which will need to be proven or disproven by further analytical work on what we recovered as well as future deep sea drilling expeditions.

Back to Aramis' comment. It was obviously a comment from a non-scientist and in jest. That's all. No deep attack on science.
 
Back to Aramis' comment. It was obviously a comment from a non-scientist and in jest. That's all. No deep attack on science.
I may have taken it that way had he posted a smiley with it. Or had he not had a previous record of claiming that science was wrong because he didn't understand the scientific method.

Look at this thread and see the drivel that Aramis and Laryssa were posting. I'm sorry, but after that I have no reason to assume his comment on the universe thread was in jest. Given his track record, I feel quite justified in interpreting that as another of his attacks on science.

The guy's got the gall to claim that science is all "Wild Ass Guesses". Would you and your colleagues appreciate being told by someone who has no understanding about what you do that all the work you've done is based on wild guesswork or that you have no clue what you're doing? And the less said about Laryssa's drivel the better.

Your tolerance for that sort of thing may be higher than mine, and that's fine. But it seems to me that too many scientists don't care about this sort of "anti-education" and propagation of ignorance, which is why crap like the Face on Mars and alien conspiracies and this mistrust of science continue to grow unabated. Heck, science education in the UK is at an all-time low now. Scientists have a responsibility to stand up against crap like this.

Claiming that science should "stand up on its own" is all very well, but people as a whole don't care if a handful of experts understand and validate something. It just adds to the impression that scientists are an insular bunch who don't need to justify anything they do. And that's wrong, I think. It's our responsibility to bring the light of knowledge to civilisation, and we should be doing everything we can to educate people and drive away the darkness of ignorance. And it's quite clear that science can't do that by "standing on its own". Everything we do is meaningless if people are so lazy or apathetic that they want to remain blinkered and ignorant and uneducated about it. And it's worse if they'd rather turn away from rational thought in the process, because then we're losing the battle.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Would you and your colleagues appreciate being told by someone who has no understanding about what you do that all the work you've done is based on wild guesswork or that you have no clue what you're doing?
I get this all the time. Managers, you know. And most customers.
 
Originally posted by ravs:
All I was saying is that if you are extremely passionate about good science (as you are), then you are more likely to win over people by employing courtesy than by using blunt instruments. You can act nice and smart - the two are not mutually exclusive.
Oh, I've tried being nice to people. But there's a growing crowd here who have of late been showing up to try and undermine the science. People like Aramis and Laryssa, for example. And then there's people like BGG who have a personal vendetta against me anyway because of some perceived slight and use any opportunity they can to try to undermine me while pretending to be the good guy. And note that I'm not pretending to be a saint here - I know I've blown my top at people several times here, but I've noticed (not just with me) that the guy causing the trouble usually gets away scot-free whereas the guy reacting to the trouble gets all the blame. And that's not the way it should be.

It's hard to be "nice" to people who are doing their damnedest to goad you or undermine you, and if that's the way they want to act then I see no reason to pull the punches with them, I'm not going to ignore them while they're allowed to continue to attack me, and I'm certainly not going to sit back and let them spread their lies and ignorance further. I'm not the sort that "turns the other cheek", and I won't comprimise when it comes to educating people with real science vs people's ill-informed opinions.

If it really does matter to you what people on these boards think about you, then being polite ought to be an imperative.
I gave up caring what people thought of me here a long time ago, when it became clear that they'd still be trying to screw me over no matter what I did. It might be a minority of people here who do that, but unfortunately they're a loud, vocal minority.
 
Dear Evil Dr. Malenfant,

I am rejecting your hypothesis that:

Having a Ph.D. = being infallible and omniscient
Having a Ph.D. = excusing you for being rude, obnoxious, and arrogant.
Having a Ph.D. = excusing you for being intolerant and derisive of someone without your credentials
The universe doesn't give a damn what anyone's opinion about it is

For your reference, attached are links of web pages that scientifically find value in the fact that the universe does give a damn about someone's opinion about it.

What the Bleep do we know?

Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research

Institute of Noetic Sciences

Please revise the Malenfant Hypothesis before the next round of discussions commence. If you refuse to revise your hypothesis, your contemporaries may ignore your comments.

It is further suggested that you should send your Ph.D. up your Black Hole during the next launch cycle where it will be shredded by the singularity's gravitational shearing forces and irradiated by Hawking radiation.

Sincerely,

Sir Dameon Toth
 
Oh joy, another random attack from a stroppy anti-scientist who doesn't like it when the flaws in his argument are pointed out. What joy. :rolleyes:
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I didn't even make any of the claims you attribute to me, Dameon, so I have no idea what you're talking about. I know it's going too far when it gets to the point that people have to make up random crap about me to make me look bad.

- I've never used my PhD to claim I am "infallible and omniscient". I *do* however know more than you or a lot of other people (if not everyone) about planetary science and astrophysics, so I reserve the right to tell people about our understanding of how the universe works and the facts behind that. I am very confident in what I know, and very confident in my ability to research more information about the subject.

- I've never used my PhD as an excuse to be "rude, obnoxious, and arrogant". If you want to take being told the facts about a subject as "rude or obnoxious", or think I'm "arrogant" because I'm so fully confident in my knowledge and education that I know the facts and theories I am recounting are correct or valid and that yours aren't, then that's your problem and your misinterpretation, not mine.

- and I've never used my Ph.D. as "an excuse to be intolerant and derisive of someone without my credentials". However, it remains true that I know a damn sight more about the subject I've studied than everyone else here. So if some joker comes along claiming that the science is wrong, or makes some wacky assumption about the science that I know for certain isn't valid, then I'm damn well going to point out that they're wrong. And if they continue to insist that they're right despite that and despite the evidence against them, then damn straight I'll be intolerant and derisive of them.

Like I said, maybe you feel the same when mechanics or doctors or engineers tell you things that run contrary to what you thought you knew. Are you right and they're wrong? Would you argue with them like you're arguing with me? And after they repeatedly demonstrate to you how they're correct, would you still claim that they are using their credentials to be "intolerant and derisive" of people who don't have them when you're still insisting you're right? Maybe you would do that, I don't know.

Of course, I'm not allowed to defend myself against these accusations because that'd be construed as being "arrogant" or "obnoxious" :rolleyes: , and I'm sure those who are aligned against me will find some other excuse from this to attack me again. And naturally I'll be accused of and blamed for exacerbating the situation because I'm responding to someone attacking me again.

I'm getting damn tired of this script, people. And I'm sure everyone else is too.
 
Like I said, maybe you feel the same when mechanics or doctors or engineers tell you things that run contrary to what you thought you knew. Are you right and they're wrong? Would you argue with them like you're arguing with me? And after they repeatedly demonstrate to you how they're correct, would you still claim that they are using their credentials to be "intolerant and derisive" of people who don't have them when you're still insisting you're right? Maybe you would do that, I don't know.
I have argued with doctors before. Hell, I had to figure out that a drug interaction was causing my father's anemia when the Doctors at the hospital couldn't even figure it out. Your "I have a piece of paper that says I'm smarter than you" routine is bullshit. I doesn't mean you are smarter - I just means you went to school longer than I did. Your knowledge base may be greater - but that doesn't make ME stupid.

By the way, no one is 'aligned' against you. I was actually feeling bad that you were leaving until you pulled the BS on this thread. I've been on this board for 5 years now and I've only gotten in an argument with one other person in all that time.

You know, the anger problem is probably going to give you high blood pressure.
 
Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
For your reference, attached are links of web pages that scientifically find value in the fact that the universe does give a damn about someone's opinion about it.

What the Bleep do we know?

Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research

Institute of Noetic Sciences
Sir Dameon Toth, I did not see Dr. Peter Venkman, Dr. Raymond Stantz nor Dr. Egon Spengler(1) listed as among the researchers nor in any of the pictures at those websites.

It is my opinion that each of these groups is engaged in Pseudoscience. (You can link to the site to find out more about pseudoscience if you desire.)

(1) The Ghostbusters
 
Randy,

It's possible the first and the last are engaged in that type of work, but I seriously doubt that Princeton isn't validating their findings. IONS is attempting to push the bounds of consciousness - which Princeton is finding may actually have a valid impact on the quantum world. I understand your opinion - and there are many many people that hold that opinion. I'm not saying your wrong. But we also don't know at this point what's right. The quantum world changes a lot of views. If it is possible for consciousness to non-causally affect that world, that drastically changes a lot of our ideas about the universe. And if we can scientifically prove that, well...
 
Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Your "I have a piece of paper that says I'm smarter than you" routine is bullshit. I doesn't mean you are smarter - I just means you went to school longer than I did. Your knowledge base may be greater - but that doesn't make ME stupid.
Then stop acting like you are stupid.

My "piece of paper" doesn't tell you I'm smarter than you, and again I've never claimed that. It tells you that I know more about that subject than you.

By the way, no one is 'aligned' against you. I was actually feeling bad that you were leaving until you pulled the BS on this thread.
Why exactly did you even chip in on this thread anyway? You claimed that scientific theories are opinions, I told you that you were wrong and showed how they're not, and then you decided to try to run semantic rings around me by quoting the wrong definitions of theory at me (which I duly shot down), and then you took it all personally from that. So I'm not seeing why *I'm* the one supposedly "pulling BS on this thread" here.

Do you expect me to apologise to you because your attempt to prove me wrong failed? Am I not allowed to contradict people now when they're wrong, is that it?

It really seems like I can't win here. I'm not allowed to defend myself from attack without people claiming I'm rude or offensive, I'm not allowed to contradict people when they're wrong without being accused of being "arrogant", I'm not allowed to teach people about science because they feel threatened when their flawed preconceptions are shattered... what the hell do you want me to do here?

This whole thread is no better than BGG's "callout thread" from before - it just seems to be another excuse for people to lay into me. And again, the moderators are silently sitting by and allowing people to continue to do so, while being the first to charge in if I ever say anything that could possibly be construed as an attack against anyone else. How's that for double standards?
 
Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Randy,

It's possible the first and the last are engaged in that type of work, but I seriously doubt that Princeton isn't validating their findings. IONS is attempting to push the bounds of consciousness - which Princeton is finding may actually have a valid impact on the quantum world. I understand your opinion - and there are many many people that hold that opinion. I'm not saying your wrong. But we also don't know at this point what's right. The quantum world changes a lot of views. If it is possible for consciousness to non-causally affect that world, that drastically changes a lot of our ideas about the universe. And if we can scientifically prove that, well...
Um, no. This is all complete hokum. The "Princeton site" even has a list of its publications... and they're pretty much published in a single fringe journal (the "journal of scientific exploration", which seems to be anything but that) that consists of papers about wacky "biofields" and other such nonsense.

Every one of those links is pseudoscientific hokum to one degree or another. There's no evidence at all that "consciousness" affects anything on a macroscopic scale (hell, there's no scientific definition of "consciousness" anyway). It all stems from a misinterpretation of the Observer Effect in quantum physics, and all that does is affect the state of lightwaves or subatomic particles when they're being observed. There's no real evidence to suggest that this affects anything on a macroscopic scale.
 
How am I acting like I'm stupid? I pulled up a very VALID definition of Theory and you pulled the "you can't use that definition because I said so" rebuttal. How do you think you 'proved' me wrong. You never showed a thing. All you did was say I was wrong. How do you think that 'shot me down?' I was too busy laughing at you to bother responding at that point. Then even Andrew Bolton had to post to tell you to act like an adult and you STILL kept going. Which is when I posted my "Dear Evil Dr. Malenfant" letter.

What I posted is a valid definition for theory that the rest of the world uses just fine. Just not when talking to you, I guess. I 'chipped in' on this thread because I was appalled that you were throwing a tantrum about this.

Einstien's Theory of Relativity still hasn't been PROVED completely and they are starting to realize that there may be a bunch wrong with it. You stated that: "If it's a theory, it's proven". How can proof be wrong? And why would they be sending up a gravity inference probe to check if he was right?

What about Brane Theory and SuperString Theory? They are both trying to describe the same thing. One of them has to be wrong - and possibly even both. If it's wrong - then it's not proof.

You didn't shoot me down, all you did was say you proved me wrong. And I'm still laughing about that one. How the hell did you keep a job as a scientist? Oh, wait, you didn't.

If it's a theory, it's an opinion - maybe a very organized and highly thought out opinion, but an opinion nonetheless.

I did prove you wrong - you're just too thick-headed to see it.

If your definition of theory and hypothesis differs from the rest of us, then maybe it's time for you to move on to places where people agree with your opinion of that definition.
 
Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Um, no. This is all complete hokum.
You're entitled to your opinion. </font>[/QUOTE]You seem to have misunderstood me again. I wasn't stating an opinion.

Whatever that stuff is, it isn't science. It's not carried out according to scientific standards, it's not peer-reviewed by real scientists, it's full of assumption and subjectivity, and it's not repeatable. If you believe that it is real science, then you're either very gullible, very ignorant, or very stupid. Or most likely all three.

Naturally, people who believe that stuff is true tend to be the sort of people who think that real scientists are hiding things from them, or that science is too "close-minded" (translation: because real science doesn't accept random crap like this, real science must be wrong), and have fixed initial presumptions that the universe operates on a level that can't be explained by science alone (when there is no evidence to support this claim at all).
 
Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
How am I acting like I'm stupid? I pulled up a very VALID definition of Theory
...which wasn't the one that is appropriate to be used in this context. It's that simple. Come on man, this is basic dictionary usage we're talking about, and you can't even do that right. Heck, Randy could see that too, I don't see you rounding on him for pointing it out though

I 'chipped in' on this thread because I was appalled that you were throwing a tantrum about this.
And you're still here because...?

Einstien's Theory of Relativity still hasn't been PROVED completely and they are starting to realize that there may be a bunch wrong with it.
Who's "they"? It's been proven to work in the same way that Newtonian gravity does at least. Maybe there's some situations where it breaks down, but the Theory of Relativity still stands and is still pretty rock solid.


You stated that: "If it's a theory, it's proven". How can proof be wrong? And why would they be sending up a gravity inference probe to check if he was right?
Because there's always a need for more data.

You didn't shoot me down, all you did was say you proved me wrong. And I'm still laughing about that one. How the hell did you keep a job as a scientist? Oh, wait, you didn't.
Hey look, personal attack! Oh wait, I'm supposed to be fair game here, aren't I.

If it's a theory, it's an opinion - maybe a very organized and highly thought out opinion, but an opinion nonetheless.
Utter foetid bullshit. It's pointless continuing to talk with you, you insist you're right when you're not. If you want to wallow in your ignorance then go right ahead. Just sod off and do it elsewhere, and stop claiming you're right when you're not.

I did prove you wrong - you're just too thick-headed to see it.
Whee, more insults! "Hey kettle! It's pot! You're black!"

If your definition of theory and hypothesis differs from the rest of us, then maybe it's time for you to move on to places where people agree with your opinion of that definition. [/qb]
Unfortunately for you, my definition of theory and hypothesis are the same as every other scientist's. But hey, what the hell do I know about science, right? I've only wasted 20 years of my life studying it to be put down and ignored by ignorant cretins on the internet. Fact is, you just refuse to admit that you're wrong, largely because it's coming from me. But if you're too stubborn and pig-ignorant to acknowledge that then that's your problem, not mine. Personally, I'd love to see you walk into a university science campus and spout the crap you've been saying here and see how far you get. No doubt you'll be screaming at them telling them they all don't know what they're talking about.

So how about you piss off and make an effort to learn something, and then come back when you're less ignorant? Then we might be getting somewhere.
 
And again, you have misunderstood. Newton was wrong - close, but still wrong, Kepler was wrong - again, close, but wrong. Tesla, we still don't know if he was wrong with some of his stuff. All of these scientific 'theories' have at one point or another been proven wrong by the next genius to come along. You believe all of this you learned in school is written in stone. It's not. Someday, someone is going to come along and show that Einstein and Hawking were both wrong - close, but yet again, wrong.

The man who invented the eraser had the human race pretty well sized up.

Opinion has caused more trouble on this
Earth than plagues or earthquakes.
- Voltaire

And didn't you say you were leaving and not coming back? Yet more BS from the Mouth of Malenfant...
 
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