the value of life

[Xerxeskingofking]

This is something that I've come to accept about the OTU, over the course of some time, but i don't think its really explicitly stated or really articulated anywhere, despite it having quite some effect on the OTU and our perceptions of it.

What i have come to realise it that, by contemporary western standards, the OTU in general places a very low value on individual human life.


I think the clearest example of this is the widespread use of Low Berth systems, which routinely cause life threatening or fatal injuries to their occupants, but nether the less are standard on most interstellar ships, and have what must amount to thousands of people travelling in them every year in just the Marches, and by extension, dozens to hundreds of deaths.

I find it impossible to imagine such a dangerous system being used today, expect in the most truly desperate of circumstances, as the risk is simply unacceptable. I cannot, off the top of my head, think of situation in history where people would voluntarily run risks of this scale just to get form A to B. the only thing that comes to mind is the steerage immigrants to the new world in the 19th century, but even they didn't have a mortality rate on this scale, as far i as i know.

And, faced with this high chance of death, what do starfarers do? hold a sweepstakes on how many they are going to loose. That's a level of gallows humour i haven't seem outside of Russian EOD teams.

I'd write more, but its late, and i need to sleep before work in the morning. my key point is that it is clear that the OTU has a very low value on human life, and that it is sometimes inappropriate to project our values and standards onto the OTU, as they don't map properly onto it. A culture that is willing to accept such a lethal method of travel is, to my eyes, more alien in its fundamental values than any culture i know on this earth today.

 

[mike wightman]

I agree - at least for the Imperium.

They have such a huge population base that filling fighters and battledress with people is a cheaper alternative to building robotic versions.

If life were valued then fighters and battlesuits, if not gunships and battleriders, would be robots.

 

[Timerover51]

This is something that I've come to accept about the OTU, over the course of some time, but i don't think its really explicitly stated or really articulated anywhere, despite it having quite some effect on the OTU and our perceptions of it.

What i have come to realise it that, by contemporary western standards, the OTU in general places a very low value on individual human life.


I think the clearest example of this is the widespread use of Low Berth systems, which routinely cause life threatening or fatal injuries to their occupants, but nether the less are standard on most interstellar ships, and have what must amount to thousands of people travelling in them every year in just the Marches, and by extension, dozens to hundreds of deaths.

I find it impossible to imagine such a dangerous system being used today, expect in the most truly desperate of circumstances, as the risk is simply unacceptable. I cannot, off the top of my head, think of situation in history where people would voluntarily run risks of this scale just to get form A to B. the only thing that comes to mind is the steerage immigrants to the new world in the 19th century, but even they didn't have a mortality rate on this scale, as far i as i know.

And, faced with this high chance of death, what do starfarers do? hold a sweepstakes on how many they are going to loose. That's a level of gallows humour i haven't seem outside of Russian EOD teams.

I'd write more, but its late, and i need to sleep before work in the morning. my key point is that it is clear that the OTU has a very low value on human life, and that it is sometimes inappropriate to project our values and standards onto the OTU, as they don't map properly onto it. A culture that is willing to accept such a lethal method of travel is, to my eyes, more alien in its fundamental values than any culture i know on this earth today.

I agree with your remarks, and with respect to the low-berth issue I allow them to be routinely used only with animals, with a survival rate of 95% (roll 1 on a D20 for the animal not to make it). You are not going to ship even animals over stellar distances without a very high survival rate. No routine passenger use is permitted, but life boats may be so fitted for emergency use. I know rolling a D20 is not the norm, but the 2D6 roll does get very restrictive at times.

 

[aramis]

I agree with your remarks, and with respect to the low-berth issue I allow them to be routinely used only with animals, with a survival rate of 95% (roll 1 on a D20 for the animal not to make it). You are not going to ship even animals over stellar distances without a very high survival rate. No routine passenger use is permitted, but life boats may be so fitted for emergency use. I know rolling a D20 is not the norm, but the 2D6 roll does get very restrictive at times.

Note that later editions make failure not death, but serious injury. Debilitating enough to require medical support in some cases.

Essentially, the death rate in later editions is closer to 1%.

For a CT implementation, just make the margin of failure the number of 2d hits applied as wounds, but allowing hits to Int & Edu, as well. A 2 on the roll thus is fail by 3, and is 3 hits of 2d. Potentially fatal for all but the buffest. Or, for a more lethal (but not instantly) make it a 3d hit per point, instead.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

A 1% failure rate of what is essentially medical equipment, whether causing death or injury to the occupant is absolutely horrible by our standards. I am not disagreeing with the OP per se, but consider the implications below.

• A 1% Failure Rate on the Frozen Watch of military ships?
• A 1% Failure Rate on the Terran sub-light missions carrying 100,000 colonists per shot?

In both cases it is likely several of the Medic skill 4+ people to expertly revive others are among the frozen. The Great Rift (I got my Kickstarter :coffeesip: ) gives new details on the missions, indicating children were among the frozen. Would you put yourself and your children on the asteroid knowing there is a 1% chance each of might die or suffer.

Would the technology used in these two cases be different than what is standard now?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Also, what is to prevent coyotes or other human traffickers? Many in the US know coyote is the term given to people who, for a fee, transport other people illegally into the US. What is less well known is the three-fold reason for the name. Desert environment, Spanish word origin AND given a chance the may just take your stuff and kill you or leave you to the wilderness to die or get caught the authorities. Sort of like the opportunistic animal itself. OK, four-fold.

Given Imperial Policy of leaving planets to rule themselves mostly, well....

 

[Enoki]

I remember reading about one of those "professor" experiments with a class.

The professor asks the class "What's the value of a human life?" The class answers "Invaluable," "You can't put a price on it," or "Beyond measure..."

The professor then hands out flyers to sign up for like "Save a starving kid in Africa" or "For just a few dollars a month..." etc. He says "If human life is so valuable and precious, sign up to save one and put your money where your mouth is."

Of course, the students don't sign up. So he collects the flyers, and finds the cheapest one. He announces "A human life is worth no more than x dollars..."

The point of the story is that the Imperium is likely little different. There's plenty of planets that are over populated, under developed, and what-have-you to get an endless, or nearly endless, supply of cannon fodder from.
The only thing that would make this less prevalent is the cost of training and equipping those troops.

I'd think the bulk of the Imperium's military are long service veterans from worlds where the military is a stellar opportunity compared to local life. (pun intended) For the well heeled, only being an officer would have any appeal.
The Imperium would be far better off equipping most marines and naval infantry at lower tech levels, just 2 or 3 above the locals where they have a definite superiority. These weapons and whatnot are likely hand-me-downs that have long been depreciated where their loss means nothing.

I'd expect the Imperium to have lots and lots of old, decrepit, ships in backwaters where they are like gunboats in China in the 20's and 30's mostly manned with crew that have little option but to stay on and do their duty for the Empire.

I'd expect them to be equipped well below the max tech level but better armed, equipped, and trained than the locals could hope to manage. Why put high tech ships and troops in a low tech system say fifty parsecs from the nearest border? All you need do is ensure the local government is loyal to the emperor and pays their taxes.

Otherwise the likes of Steve McQueen and company show up and adjust the local's attitude. They control the star system even if they don't control the planet(s). Things are over their head, they send one of their own for help.
I'd also think a big part of the Imperial Navy is operating escort vessels for merchant ships. Piracy is a problem? Convoys with armed escorts are the answer. Sure, a pirate ship might take on a single merchant, but taking on half a dozen armed merchants with a couple of well armed escorts is beyond them.
The big, top of the line, Imperial warships sit around in some system of major importance looking good and drinking coffee. Battleships might look terrific, but it's the little ships that are really interesting on a day-to-day basis.

 

[aramis]

A 1% failure rate of what is essentially medical equipment, whether causing death or injury to the occupant is absolutely horrible by our standards. I am not disagreeing with the OP per se, but consider the implications below.

The failure rate for most "standard" surgeries is listed at about 1%. Not one of the 13 surgeries I've had has been said by the docs to have less than a 5% failure rate. (7 dental, 5 orthopedic, 1 hernia). Most of those, the biggest risk of death is the anaesthesia killing one outright; the biggest risk of failure is an infection causing problems; in the carpal and tarsal tunnel releases, nerve damage is a real complication, but the death rate's stupidly low - if you survive the anaesthesia.

Even a vasectomy has a 0.3% risk of death....

https://riskcalculator.facs.org/RiskCalculator/Outcome.jsp

 

[Ishmael]

From Wolf Larsen, the sea wolf.

http://vithar.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/the-sea-wolf.html

sounds like many players to me...

 

[Daidoji Dave]

What i have come to realise it that, by contemporary western standards, the OTU in general places a very low value on individual human life.

Against the vast majority of human history, contemporary western standards are the outlier. And western standards aren't even universal today: Google "Chinese OSHA", or look up "Russian driver" on youtube.

I find it impossible to imagine such a dangerous system being used today, expect in the most truly desperate of circumstances, as the risk is simply unacceptable. I cannot, off the top of my head, think of situation in history where people would voluntarily run risks of this scale just to get form A to B. the only thing that comes to mind is the steerage immigrants to the new world in the 19th century, but even they didn't have a mortality rate on this scale, as far i as i know.

The mortality rate for Chinese coolies shipping to Cuba in the 19th century was around 15%, and going to Peru was between 30%-40%. Granted they weren't all volunteers*, it's still a thing that happened.

*"Recruitment" ranged from outright kidnapping, to voluntarily indenturing themselves either for money for their family or to settle gambling debts, to false promises of pay on the other end. Which, actually, is likely to be a feature of low berths in Traveller as well, but I understand if people don't want to go there when their characters are the ones selling the tickets.

The first English colonists in the new world suffered a mortality rate around 50%; that includes the first few years after arrival and not just transit, but it still shows people will bear large risks for a shot at land and fortune when they're living in a Malthusian world.

 

[Timerover51]

Which, actually, is likely to be a feature of low berths in Traveller as well, but I understand if people don't want to go there when their characters are the ones selling the tickets.

As the rules put a premium on making sure that every conceivable paying portion of the ship is generating revenue, the owner of a ship has every inducement to make sure that all of the Low Berths are full, using whatever it takes to do so.

The first English colonists in the new world suffered a mortality rate around 50%; that includes the first few years after arrival and not just transit, but it still shows people will bear large risks for a shot at land and fortune when they're living in a Malthusian world.

The Jamestown colonists were predominately male and came here to find a lot of gold and then return to England, as they presumed the Spanish had done in Central and South America. The Pilgrims came to escape religious persecution, after first having migrated to the Netherlands. Neither were operating in a Malthusian World. Both groups were unprepared for what they found, especially as the Pilgrims had expected to be settled in the Virginia area. Both groups assumed that the climate at the respected latitudes would be similar to what it was in Europe, and discovered that it was not the hard way. The Europeans were not aware of the Gulf Stream and its affect on European climate until the mid-1700s. Similar errors with respect to climate were made by the author of American Husbandry, written about 1773. His description of the climate of Illinois makes for very interesting reading.

 

[khadaji2002]

Still, we see even today that many people will take (what seems to me in my living room as I sip my coffee and listen to my kids play in the background) insane risks if they believe the reward is worth it. So someone who's been trapped on one world their whole life suddenly has the cash to pay for a low berth on a tramp freighter and they have the promise of a job in another star system. History tells us there is a non-trivial number of people who will sign on the dotted line even if every single risk is laid out for them. And if the transport person glides over those risks? More might sign.

I believe regardless of what an outsider thinks of a given setting, the person in that setting may very well be eager to change their circumstances. I grew up in rural Michigan in a time when crime was so low we rarely locked our doors. (The first time I remember my dad locking the doors was the day I ran away from home, as he wanted to make sure I had the full fallout of my choice. He did let me in the next morning. ) The seasons were amazing, each with its own beauty. The town we lived in was small enough that everyone knew everyone else, and the pace of life was slow. Right now, that sounds wonderful, and I would retire there in a heartbeat today.

Back then, however, I lamented the lack of movie theaters, arcades, business opportunities, new kids to meet. I wanted to be in a big city with big libraries, large factories, museums, zoos. I remember thinking that the small town was holding me back from experiencing life's abundance, and I would have left with the carnival that came to town if I'd been old enough. All of this is anecdotal....yet I believe I'm not the only one who felt this way back when I was growing up. How many of us would have been willing to chance a 1% chance of dying if it meant opening up a whole new realm of experiences?

I would have.

 

[ovka]

Very well put!!

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Against the vast majority of human history, contemporary western standards are the outlier. And western standards aren't even universal today: Google "Chinese OSHA", or look up "Russian driver" on youtube.

I am aware of this, which is why i specified "contemporary western standards". I was just pointing out it was wrong to apply them to the OTU, as well.

And Russian driving isn't any worse than anywhere else, pre se. its just they have a culture of people deliberately crashing into/getting run over by others for scam purposes, which led to a lot of Russians getting dash-cams to prove their innocence (and thus a lot of dash-cams catching bad driving)



Now, i agree that it would not be impossible to find some people willing to get into these things, but i would argue that, in our world and worldview:

A: it would not be very common, and certainly not enough to warrant low berths as standard on almost all free traders, and

B: the ship owners would not be immune to persecution for corporate manslaughter if they lost passengers, signed wavier be dammed.

 

[Grav_Moped]

....
Granted they weren't all volunteers*, it's still a thing that happened.

*"Recruitment" ranged from outright kidnapping, to voluntarily indenturing themselves either for money for their family or to settle gambling debts, to false promises of pay on the other end. Which, actually, is likely to be a feature of low berths in Traveller as well, but I understand if people don't want to go there when their characters are the ones selling the tickets.
....

The bolded part comes very close to slavery, if not actually crossing the line. The Imperium frowns on that... which could make it a useful adventure hook.

 

[aramis]

The bolded part comes very close to slavery, if not actually crossing the line. The Imperium frowns on that... which could make it a useful adventure hook.

note that several patron encounters over the years have involved being force into servitude. Including Prison Planet.

 

[mike wightman]

Not to mention the methods used b ythe Imperial Ministry of Colonisation to provide colonists for new worlds:

An interesting aspect of such colonization projects is the recruitment method
used to supply the personnel who will actually make the colony function. Since
virtually no amount of money will entice an individual to leave his home and
livelihood for the bleak desolation of a colony world, the Ministry of Colonization
has established several programs to produce colonists. Most obvious is the colonize
in lieu of prison term program. However, several other programs have also shown
signs of success. In the unemployment insurance program, high population worlds
have successfully used the colonization project as a means of reducing unemployment
over the long term. In a similar medical insurance program, indigents
unable to obtain medical treatment are provided with their needs in exchange for
signing on to a colony. The needs of a colony for skills are met through the
anagathics program; qualified (and aged) individuals can be provided with
anagathics to extend their life spans in return for their providing such skills as
administration, mechanical crafts, or medical expertise. Finally land grants to
retiring veterans has provided a cadre for the new colony's military and police
forces.

I consider the bits I have highlighted to be pretty close to slavery in all but name. It is certainly making people an offer they can not refuse...

 

[Ishmael]

It seems to me that a life's value is proportional to that life's wealth/influence which is distributed along a form of Pareto curve in a manner related strongly to a life's Social Standing. Given typical Gini values for income distributions in the west, about 2/3 of the population is worth less than the average per capita value. If looked at in conjunction with the idea that Hofstede's power distance index correlates to inequality, then the typical values become more skewed as government stat increases. More oppressive governments would then see an average/median life as being vastly cheaper than the life of one of the ruling class.

A duke's life is worth vastly more than the life of a vagrant living in a box on the edge of the starport, at least as far as an official response to their respective deaths go. Real life examples abound, although these examples may be tagged as political here. The death of an important person is given more attention than the deaths of hundreds or even thousands of unimportant people ( depending on the measure of importance by those of influence ). This also predicts that 'important' people act like haughty asshats when dealing with the hoi-polloi.

 

[BlackBat242]

Still, we see even today that many people will take (what seems to me in my living room as I sip my coffee and listen to my kids play in the background) insane risks if they believe the reward is worth it. So someone who's been trapped on one world their whole life suddenly has the cash to pay for a low berth on a tramp freighter and they have the promise of a job in another star system. History tells us there is a non-trivial number of people who will sign on the dotted line even if every single risk is laid out for them. And if the transport person glides over those risks? More might sign.

East Germans trying to reach West Germany in the 1950s-80s.
Vietnamese trying to reach anywhere else in the 1970s.
Haitians trying to reach the US in the 1990s/2000s.
North Africans trying to reach Europe in the mid 2010s.
Syrians (etc) trying to reach anywhere else in the mid 2010s.

In all of these there were significant numbers of deaths during the movement from one area to another.

 

[Ulsyus]

Really good point Xerxes, and top reply Ishmael.

So the value of a life depends on that placed on it by its owner, the society within which they exist, and any other external standards.

Remembering that the details of low-berth survival were written in CT and based on a perception of low berth at that time, and ad to it all the comments about the failure rate of health and safety standards in different places in our contemporary world. Is it fair to say that the value of human life in the 3I would vary from place to place?

IMTU I varied the survival rate based on the TL of the vessel, where it was operating ("Sir, local laws require that this unit cannot be occupied by a passenger within this system unless it is certified by full operational testing and said certification is logged with the SPA. Would you like to request certification now, or are you not going to offer low passage on your next outbound travel?") and the skill of the medtech operating the thing.