The Zhodani Menace

[King Midas]

Why isn't every Imperial university science and engineering graduate educated to TL15?

I donno on that one...

Why doesn't the Imperium promote the building of TL15 infrastructure on every member world?

Why does the Imperium not insist on universal sophont rights?

Why does the Imperium appoint nobles rather than allow worlds to elect their subsector rulers?

...But the 3I is an amalgam of the Roman and British empires.
British:
We control the "Foreign Quarter" and the trade lanes, excepting really immense events, we don't really care about what happens in the greater hinterland.
1) We don't like "cutting edge" equipment, we prefer stuff that works reliably. So if the local system can't sustain our forces, we don't put high tech stuff there, not the other way around.
2) We don't care. Diamonds and elephant tusks are in demand, we don't care about the details of the supply.
3) We're an aristocracy - what did you think we were going to do?

 

[Commander Truestar]

Why isn't every Imperial university science and engineering graduate educated to TL15?
Why doesn't the Imperium promote the building of TL15 infrastructure on every member world?
Why does the Imperium not insist on universal sophont rights?
Why does the Imperium appoint nobles rather than allow worlds to elect their subsector rulers?

Because The Imperium does not own or control worlds.It is made cleat in the OTU that the Imperium owns the space between worlds.

So,
The Imperium spends the funds it has controlling trade, maintaining defense(and Offense) and diplomacy.
I know many believe, "there has to be more than enough for that" and never see the true bills
....And never see the systems withing organizations where the Government is "cheated" so the service can do what is needed
(I saw the innards of one such effort where the Pentagon was cheating the US Government.....It was an education)

So, the Imperium can't just grab land and build facilities.
*I See* Imperial reserves on member worlds as territory granted by that system's government.

Even the "Imperial" Starport is a location, IMTU, where a system makes deals with one or more corporations to build such a facility and then build or hire(As in the vaunted "Starport Authority" - which is NOT an Imperial Government organization) an organization to control it.
The only "authority" the Imperium has over that facility would be, IMO, Confirmation they would follow Imperial guidelines in order to have access to Imperially-owned space.

So, where the Imperium can demand "No Slavery", they can't demand universal sophont rights, or enforce "any laws" where they hold only diplomatic authority at best. To intervene would be to declare an Imperial Interdiction. Which is a military action.

And finally, the Imperium appoints nobles to represent Worlds, Solar Systems, Subsectors and more because the Imperial Government then - According to the OTU - grants that nobleperson a "slice of the Credits" from that location's taxes. That money is "expected" to be used to encourage and invest in improvements to that Fief.

So, Leonard, Duke of Rhylanor gets:
1) A slice off the world Rhylanor, and the lesser worlds within the Duchy which do not have a Baron(ess), Marquis(a) or Knight/Dame assigned directly.
2) A lesser "over all" slice of the trade taxes drawn from the Duchy of Rhylanor
3) An amount of any funds granted him by Grand Duchess Delphine(1105-era) of Mora from her funds as that Nobleperson who holds the Spinward Marches Sector as her fief.

Because this tax money - From the Imperial Tax Purse - is granted to each member of the Nobility appointed to hold a world )or even nation state where said world is balkanized) in fief, --- because of that - the person is appointed. Not elected

 

[Commander Truestar]

In the Fifth Frontier War has always been portrayed as the heroic Imperium forces overcoming the aggression of the “barbarians at the gate” but what if that isn’t the case?

What if the imperium is truly the bad guys? What if the Zhodani are a peaceful and enlightening society? What if the Emperor is trying to deflect internal rebellion and give the Imperium a convenient enemy?

How would you slowly reveal this to your crew in your Traveller series?

In my game, I had the crew of a Zhodani courier ask to share a dinner with my player's crew in a neutral system.
During that dinner, I let the crew make accusations and I handled the defense of Zhodani culture.

When one player had no idea how not to ask "anything" that would not immediately turn the meeting into a combat event, he finally asked how they felt courting and romance were different between the two cultures.
The command Zhodani officer suggested they felt Zhodani courting was more honest.
When that was challenged, the officer pointed out that most of the Zhodani populous did not have talents, but one never knew if a partner had a relative that did. So, one was, on the whole bound to be more open and honest.

That officer then pointed out where Imperial relationships were more noted for inequities, such as the power one partner had over the other to bind them to the relationship. Or, hidden needs one partner concealed from the other while building the relationship. Everything from the man playing on a pretty woman's need to eat to get her into bed, or a woman who had just learned she was pregnant, and felt the need to find a father for her child.

The discussion went even deeper into a discussion of the Mind Police/Tavrchedl
Here is much of that part of the discussion

Nodding, the Captain said, "Now, what if there were organizations and people within your society who volunteered their time and talents to preventing these people from attempting assassinations. Or stop others carrying out greedy or damaging actions which led others to unfortunate situations or ends. Especially for the innocents. Wouldn't that be a benefit to your people?" Mikah answered, "Sure, but you can't stop everything." Nodding, the Captain said, "And we don't. We try our best but some things still happen." Not quite defensively, Mikah said, "So do we." While Aali backed her up, saying "Nothing can stop everything." Mikah continued, "You can't protect against everything. You do what you can." in an almost angry tone.

The Captain agreed he wasn't saying they could protect against everything. "But", he continued, "if you had Tavrchedl in your society, perhaps you would prevent more things from happening." Mikah had heard that term before, just like anyone else who'd watched even part of any vid about "the evil Zhodani". That so-called branch of Zhodani "law enforcement" were the evil bad guys in every vid! The Tavrchedl were presented as the Zhodani Consulate's psionic secret police! Still, playing coy, Mikah claimed, "I have no idea what that is?" just to see how he would explain the group?

Considering before he spoke, the Captain said, "The Tavrchedl are a branch within our government who take the measure of dropping their mental shields entirely. This lets them hear, feel and sense all the pain and emotion surrounding them. When they encounter anyone who is inordinately angry, depressed or projecting violent thoughts, they then make a report on those people. Councilors and social workers then visit the persons and help them understand why they're so angry or depressed? They then try to help those people understand the choices and decisions they'd made, or actions they were taking, which led them into that state. They would then hope to council the person to change the path of their lives and be more happy."

The idea of the Tavrchedl horrified Mikah, even if it was light-years different than what she'd seen in vids. She only said, "It still sounds like complete authoritarianism and government control of your thoughts." Before the Captain could answer, she continued, "Yes, it would be great if you could intercede against people like that. But, to go through communities, secretly listening to other's thoughts... That's abhorrent! That's a complete and total invasion of privacy! You're violating people without their knowledge." After Mikah finished, the Captain only shrugged and said, "Well, we see that differently then." Emkir dramatically added in, "In our society, we can think the most violent, most horrendous thoughts. The most sado-masochistic or depraved thoughts. As long as we don't act on those thoughts", stressing the word "act".

Others in the compartment were surprised Emkir didn't add in, 'So long as he could write them down, publish them and make a profit.' Still, the Captain nodded and said, "Exactly. You can "think" these thoughts, but there are also triggering mechanisms in your thoughts. There is a difference between thinking them for some level of self-pleasure or potentially planning to act on them. And, there are certainly differences in being willing to actually act them out. These triggers are the things the Tavrchedl are trained to detect."

There are also people who have constantly chased the wrong dream and let 'want' blind them to the damage they do to themselves, and have for years. So, there are councilors who can go in with evidence of past actions to make a graphic case that they are only hurting themselves more. Then, once a person is interviewed, the councilors and case workers can show the person a better path. Help them change their plans to become happier and achieve goals that will lead to happiness." When Emkir was stuck on actual imminent crime, asking if they can stop a store robbery, the Captain confirmed there was an element of 'intent' or a 'flavor of emotion' that could trigger instant reaction to stop an immediate crime. But, the larger mission was to find people who were destructively angry or despondent. Then find ways to improve their future, even if government assistance was needed.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Why does the Imperium appoint nobles rather than allow worlds to elect their subsector rulers?

The Imperial Noble system of governance is actually a holdover from the Ziru Sirka days of the First Imperium.

British:
We control the "Foreign Quarter" and the trade lanes, excepting really immense events, we don't really care about what happens in the greater hinterland.
1) We don't like "cutting edge" equipment, we prefer stuff that works reliably. So if the local system can't sustain our forces, we don't put high tech stuff there, not the other way around.
2) We don't care. Diamonds and elephant tusks are in demand, we don't care about the details of the supply.
3) We're an aristocracy - what did you think we were going to do?

Because The Imperium does not own or control worlds.It is made cleat in the OTU that the Imperium owns the space between worlds.

Exactly the point that I was going to make.

In the Third Imperium, individual worlds are autonomous ... but interstellar trade and diplomacy is the province of Imperial governance (via the nobility who are the Emperor's local proxies). If you never leave your homeworld (or never visit the starport), the Third Imperium is basically a "foreign power" that the ruling political class of your homeworld need to meet & greet with ... and that's about it, with respect to domestic affairs.

Since most Travellers lean towards the interstellar realm, they tend to "get more of the Imperial viewpoint" on things than people who spend their entire lives on a single world with no desire to go anywhere else.

 

[Condottiere]

Oh, I don't know.

We're already starting to use accumulated databases and profiling to predict criminality.

Likely, artificial intelligence will guide our societies.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Likely, artificial intelligence will guide our societies.

Zhodani: We use psionics to prevent crimes.

Imperials: We use electronics to prevent crimes.

Sword Worlds: We use our FISTS to prevent crimes!

Vargr: You humaniti are ANIMALS ...

 

[Condottiere]

Vargr - WE are the crime.

 

[mike wightman]

Because The Imperium does not own or control worlds.It is made cleat in the OTU that the Imperium owns the space between worlds.

That is Imperial propoganda.

The Imperium decides the interstellar trade policy of member worlds.

The Imperium has a subsector level of government that ensures worlds do as they are told or else.

There are numerous examples of Imperial intervention into world affairs.
The control of trade ensures that TL15 industrial and high population worlds manufacture the bulk of goods and the lower TL worlds are effectively impoverished.

So, the Imperium can't just grab land and build facilities.

The Imperium does just that when it suits them, again canon examples abound.
Control of a world's interstellar economy gives the Imperium effective control of that world.

So, where the Imperium can demand "No Slavery", they can't demand universal sophont rights, or enforce "any laws" where they hold only diplomatic authority at best. To intervene would be to declare an Imperial Interdiction. Which is a military action.

They could do so with ease, there is a department for education for each subsector which has money to distribute to worlds. I wonder what they insist is on the curriculum...

And finally, the Imperium appoints nobles to represent Worlds, Solar Systems, Subsectors and more because the Imperial Government then - According to the OTU - grants that nobleperson a "slice of the Credits" from that location's taxes. That money is "expected" to be used to encourage and invest in improvements to that Fief.

And yet those improvements are never made...

Because this tax money - From the Imperial Tax Purse - is granted to each member of the Nobility appointed to hold a world )or even nation state where said world is balkanized) in fief, --- because of that - the person is appointed. Not elected

But the Imperium could allow the worlds of the subsector of Rhylanor the right to elect their subsector government. They choose not to use that model.

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperial Noble system of governance is actually a holdover from the Ziru Sirka days of the First Imperium.

No, it isn't.
The Sylean Federation did not have a system of noble government. The Ziru Sirka did not have a system of noble government.
When Cleon declared the Imperium Cleon Industries bosses and others who were part of the project were granted noble title

Exactly the point that I was going to make.

And it is wrong. Control of intersteller trade policy grants the Imperium control of that world, any world that goes against Imperial policy will face interdiction and regime change. The whole Imperiom rules the space between stars does not hold water when the setting is analysed. This has been discussed many times over.

In the Third Imperium, individual worlds are autonomous ... but interstellar trade and diplomacy is the province of Imperial governance (via the nobility who are the Emperor's local proxies). If you never leave your homeworld (or never visit the starport), the Third Imperium is basically a "foreign power" that the ruling political class of your homeworld need to meet & greet with ... and that's about it, with respect to domestic affairs.

They are "granted" local autonomy if they are a frontier world is how it was originally presented. If I "grant" you it means I control you, as I can rescind my "grant".

Since most Travellers lean towards the interstellar realm, they tend to "get more of the Imperial viewpoint" on things than people who spend their entire lives on a single world with no desire to go anywhere else.

The Traveller Adventure is perhaps the best source on how different world within the Imperium oppress their citizens and the Imperium is not bothered because the taxes must flow...

 

[McPerth]

Why isn't every Imperial university science and engineering graduate educated to TL15?

Why doesn't the Imperium promote the building of TL15 infrastructure on every member world?

Why does the Imperium not insist on universal sophont rights?

Why does the Imperium appoint nobles rather than allow worlds to elect their subsector rulers?

Well, I guess that's what Dulinor inteded to fix...

And you know the results...

 

[Spinward Flow]

That is Imperial propoganda.

The Imperium decides the interstellar trade policy of member worlds.

Interstellar policy is a matter for the Imperial Bureaucracy to manage.
Domestic policy within star systems is a local matter controlled by local governments.

The Imperium has a subsector level of government that ensures worlds do as they are told or else.

Who's spreading propaganda now?

There are numerous examples of Imperial intervention into world affairs.

Yes ... but ... most of those examples have to do with either domestic policies bent on self-destruction (nuclear war between rival factions) that can lay waste to planets and populations ... or are examples where megacorporations have "run amok" under their remits on planets, resulting in unsustainable resource extraction at the expense of planetary environment health (basically strip mining the place and leaving the spoil waste lying around to rot for someone else to clean up). Another example would be when a particular world/star system becomes a haven for pirates or other criminal elements that threaten freedom of navigation (and commerce) in the surrounding region.

When you've got over 10,000 star systems to choose from ... there are going to be examples of "Waste, Fraud and Abuse" in the systems and policy apparatus no matter what you do. The difference is whether those situations are the NORM and only to be expected ... or are they the exceptions that prove the rule (where greed outpaced wisdom)?

The control of trade ensures that TL15 industrial and high population worlds manufacture the bulk of goods and the lower TL worlds are effectively impoverished.

You say "control of trade" ... where anyone else can see "obvious competitive advantage" ... and attribute nefarious motives to the practice.

Even in the far future, laws of supply & demand along with competitive advantages "still work" at interstellar scales.

The Imperium does just that when it suits them, again canon examples abound.
Control of a world's interstellar economy gives the Imperium effective control of that world.

Does it?
I think you are (desperately) overstating your case.

INFLUENCE over world affairs, I will grant ... because it is impossible to have a trade relationship with foreign entities without a measure of influence being granted (in both directions, but the measure of influence can certainly be unequal, depending on the relationship).

CONTROL is something that is flatly wrong.
Not to drag something that belongs in The Pit into this discussion, but that's akin to saying that because Canada has a trading relationship with the US, ipso facto the US "controls" Canada. We have a real world example of how that is NOT THE CASE unfolding right now on the world stage.

They could do so with ease, there is a department for education for each subsector which has money to distribute to worlds. I wonder what they insist is on the curriculum...

Again, not to drag The Pit into this discussion ... but are you asserting that there is some kind of Imperial "Common Core" curriculum that MUST be taught to every child in every school in the Third Imperium? That this "Common Core" is IMPOSED, top down, onto EVERY world and citizen throughout the Third Imperium?

And yet those improvements are never made...

Which kind of cuts against the notion that the Third Imperium "controls" worlds (via interstellar trade channels?) if even the "improvements" the Third Imperium MIGHT want to make "never happen" as you assert.

But the Imperium could allow the worlds of the subsector of Rhylanor the right to elect their subsector government. They choose not to use that model.

LOOK at the UWP Government codes.

LBB3.81, p11:

By my count (and feel free to check my math on this one) ... there are only TWO government types in that listing that yield "popular elections" for rule over world governments.

• Code: 2
• Code: 4

An argument can be made that Code: 7 can also yield "popular elections" of leadership, but only for a subset of the world's population (because multiple governing factions rather than a single unified world government).

And just for reference, Government Code: 2 is only possible (typically) up to Population: 7.
Government Code: 4 is only possible (typically) up to Population: 9.

So if you're wondering WHY the star systems in the Rhylanor subsector "don't elect their subsector government" ... the simplest answer is because elected governing (of any variety) is a vast minority of government types for the worlds in the Rhylanor subsector.

A quick look at LBB S3, p30 shows that only THREE of the 32 star systems in the Rhylanor subsector have Government Code: 4 ... and only ONE of those 32 star systems has Government Code: 2.

• Garrincski (B632520-7)
• Henoz (A545543-B)
• Belizo (B895646-5)
• Somem (C301340-B)

EVERY other star system in the Rhylanor subsector has a non-elected form of (world) government.

Now explain for the class why 4 Non-industrial worlds with "modest" populations should get to dictate the "rules of subsector government" to the 131.1 BILLION people inhabiting the other 28 star systems within the subsector.

Even for someone who zealously believes in egalitarian democracy, 4 out of 32 star systems is a super-minority constituency for the proposition that subsector governing authorities should be determined by popular election of representation.

They choose not to use that model.

Something something ... vulnerable to the whims of demogoguery ... popularity contests aren't the best way to select for expertise in governing ... blah blah blah ... you know the drill.

If I "grant" you it means I control you, as I can rescind my "grant".

So if I "grant" that you might have said something that is correct, does that mean that I now control you?

I'm detecting a flaw in your logic here.