Thoughts on High Guard mods

[JAFARR]

I am thinking of reworking HG's stateroom specs to make state rooms 2 tons at the HG's cost and require that additional space equal to that used in stateroom be set aside for common usage spaces at no additional cost. Then I had second thoughts to modify it a little more as follows:
Common areas are based on standard SR sizes, but can be upgraded for a price. Suppose that you could be stingy and provide "cramped" accomodations (SR = 1.75 tons) at a 10% reduction in fares or "Spacious" SR sizes (SR = 2.25 tons) at a 10% premium in price. I could even take it a step farther and have "Luxurious" sizes. Take it a step past that and have the same modifications for the common spaces.

Comments please.

 

[Icosahedron]

I don't see how the first idea differs from the original.

In the second idea, the cramped rooms are more costly per unit volume than standard, while the spacious rooms are less expensive. Nothing particularly wrong with that but I wondered if you'd realised?

A lot depends on how much paperwork you're willing to do and what benefit it will bestow on your game. Only you can decide that.

An alternative, that will negate most of the paperwork apart from deckplans, is to have different size staterooms, but they're all the same price. You get a bigger cabin on a first come, first served basis - unless you're bumped by a late-arriving VIP, or someone bungs a bribe, or gives the purser a hard luck story. Plenty of opportunity for role play if the cabins are different sizes for the same price, and much less paperwork.

 

[Matt123]

I allocate double staterooms to VIP's and thier partners and a half stateroom for the Valet.

For cramped conditions, I use double occupancy or bunkrooms sleeping 6 in the same space (includes communal facilities) for the same cost & volume. The bunkrooms tho' I use sparingly, generally low tech designs where space is at a premium.

 

[JAFARR]

I don't see how the first idea differs from the original.

In the second idea, the cramped rooms are more costly per unit volume than standard, while the spacious rooms are less expensive. Nothing particularly wrong with that but I wondered if you'd realised?

A lot depends on how much paperwork you're willing to do and what benefit it will bestow on your game. Only you can decide that.

An alternative, that will negate most of the paperwork apart from deckplans, is to have different size staterooms, but they're all the same price. You get a bigger cabin on a first come, first served basis - unless you're bumped by a late-arriving VIP, or someone bungs a bribe, or gives the purser a hard luck story. Plenty of opportunity for role play if the cabins are different sizes for the same price, and much less paperwork.

(1) I am thinking about clarity in drawing deckplans and using spreadsheets that show how many deck squares to allot to what purposes. Also I intend to expand or allow for the use of assigning modifiers to the common areas as well as the staterooms in my spreadsheets.
(2) I also thought at that after I had shut down the comutor for the night. The main question would be how small a cramped SR could be and still be functionable. I am guessing 1.5 tons would be the minimum. (Unless you have a race of "little people" running about in YTU.)

 

[JAFARR]

I allocate double staterooms to VIP's and thier partners and a half stateroom for the Valet.

For cramped conditions, I use double occupancy or bunkrooms sleeping 6 in the same space (includes communal facilities) for the same cost & volume. The bunkrooms tho' I use sparingly, generally low tech designs where space is at a premium.

Bunkrooms work great for large military ships' enlisted crewmembers. Throw in a loungebunkroom for the NCOs and another for the senior NCOs and you have typical USN bunking arrangements. Junior officers get a lounge/bunkroom or double/tripple SRs. Senior officers get more spacious doubles and department heads and higher get spacious(by comparison) individual SRs.

 

[Icosahedron]

(1) I am thinking about clarity in drawing deckplans and using spreadsheets that show how many deck squares to allot to what purposes. Also I intend to expand or allow for the use of assigning modifiers to the common areas as well as the staterooms in my spreadsheets.
(2) I also thought af that after I had shut down the comutor for the night. The main question would be how small a cramped SR could be and still be functionable. I am guessing 1.5 tons would be the minimum. (Unless you have a race of "little people" running about in YTU.)

1) I never got it into a spreadsheet form, because I got bogged down in 'circular references', but many years ago I devised a system (never perfected, it had a fair few bugs) for calculating facilities.

I listed out facilities in a priority order. Each ship had to have the item highest on the list if there was space. If there was insufficient space, then the next item was installed instead, etc. I also divided ships into 25 cabin compartments separated by bulkheads and airlocks.

I recall the top three items were: a 2dT galley per 25 cabins or part thereof, a 20dT sickbay per 100 cabins or part thereof, and a 2dT rest room per medic. I was always appalled at the number of ships built with no sterile medical facilities - it's only 1 step worse than building them with no WC. (and yes, a WC was on my small craft list, cos I figured there wasn't an en-suite fresher in small craft cabins).


2) I can't remember if it's stated explicitly anywhere, but I figured small craft cabins are half the size of starship cabins, and would form the absolute minimum size for accommodation. If these cabins are double occupancy at 1dT, that would suggest a minimum size of 0.5dT/person, which agrees nicely with low berths. If you really wanted to stretch it, I suppose you could go down to ELB dimensions of 4 persons per dT.

However, I usually find that the rules as written make reasonable deckplans with plenty of communal space, especially on larger ships. 2dT per double occupancy cabin, 1dT for access and 1dT for facilities has worked pretty well for me so far.

 

[JAFARR]

...


2) I can't remember if it's stated explicitly anywhere, but I figured small craft cabins are half the size of starship cabins, and would form the absolute minimum size for accommodation. If these cabins are double occupancy at 1dT, that would suggest a minimum size of 0.5dT/person, which agrees nicely with low berths. If you really wanted to stretch it, I suppose you could go down to ELB dimensions of 4 persons per dT.
....

LBB2 lists SR as 4dt and small craft cabin as 2dt. High Guard states that SRs are 4dt and adds that SRs actually average 2dt and that the rest is used for the common areas (page 33).

So, does that mean small craft cabins are actually 1dt with 1dt going to common areas? Do the same guidelines hold for small craft as for Spaceships?

 

[far-trader]

...does that mean small craft cabins are actually 1dt with 1dt going to common areas? Do the same guidelines hold for small craft as for Spaceships?

I believe so. I've even extrapolated the 1/2 actual component (stateroom) and 1/2 access and common spaces (support for stateroom) to the rest of the design. So a 10ton jump drive is 5tons of actual jump drive and 5tons of access around it for maintenance etc. And like "staterooms" include such features and items as sickbays, armories, etc.; so too do the drives include features and items like parts and tools lockers, engineering workstations and workshops, etc..

I call it my 1/2 rule (more of a guideline) of deckplanning. As outlined (in an old and in need of updating form) here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=10609

And there's an example of stateroom layout (as 2tons for the room) at the bottom of that first page.

 

[aramis]

I, too, concur that the Small Craft Cabin is 1T & 1T. Now, given that that means a 4.5 sq m floor space with 3-3.3 m ceilings, the best fit is 2m deep, bed along one wall, 2.25m wide, which gives a 1m x 2m bed, lockers below, possibly a second bunk above which folds down to make a back to turn the bed to a couch, and 1.25x2m of floor.

 

[Icosahedron]

Yes, Jafarr, 1dTcabin + 0.5dT for access + 0.5dT for communal facilities is what I use for small craft.

FT, I use a similar system for Engineering etc, but I go with 75%, figuring that although you need access, you don't need any 'facilities'. I've generally found this gives plenty of space for engine rooms, workshops, control stations, etc, except in the smallest of ships. Your 50% Engineering areas must be very roomy.

 

[far-trader]

FT, ...Your 50% Engineering areas must be very roomy.

Not so much so on smaller ships (as you note), on bigger ships a bit yes. Enough to allow something along the lines of the engineering spaces like on the Enterprise in ST with spacious control rooms (akin to the Bridge), airlocks, workshops, etc.. Filling the space on a larger ship is no harder than filling the Bridge space on the same ship (try to figure how to use 50% of the 1000tons of Bridge space on a 50Kton ship for the actual sit down control space ).

But on the whole I've found it works quite well, especially for player scale ships (and I don't often do or need deckplans for anything really big).

 

[Brian Smaller]

In addition to the standard HG staterooms I have always used 2dton small staterooms (same as available to small craft) and 4dton bunkrooms that hold four people. Worked for me.

 

[Icosahedron]

I've always regulated it with Regulations.

IMTU there are minimum volumes related to starship production. It is illegal to build or adapt a starship with accommodations of smallcraft proportions, so unless the players stumble across a custom-built/adapted ex pirate corsair, or an alien vessel as per Blakes Seven, they're stuck with 4dT staterooms. Of course, they can stuff extra bunks in there, or they might find an impoverished shipyard willing to cut some red tape on the refit to avoid lay-offs...
But then there's the Inspectorate to worry about, the compulsory annual maintenance inspections for passenger-carrying craft, the extra life support systems...

 

[aramis]

I run it pretty much like Icosahedron, but it's also part of typical customs inspections. If you don't pass the volume, no problem offloading. But if you fail and post seeking passengers, they do unkind things to your ship. Including setting the "Non-commercial" flag on your transponder, and or arresting you if you board, refusing to cash coupons made payable to the ship, delaying clearances, refusing to disconnect umbilicals, etc.

Note that Crew are not so restricted. Posting for crew is a whole different matter. Crewmen can file a grieve with the IMoTrade, but nobody really warns about crew issues...

 

[Icosahedron]

Note that Crew are not so restricted. Posting for crew is a whole different matter. Crewmen can file a grieve with the IMoTrade, but nobody really warns about crew issues...

Yep, customs are part of the inspection procedure IMTU too, but Crew are also covered.

Firstly, you can't legally build smaller cabins, and secondly, you'd have the unions and the H&S officials declaring it a no-go zone. You're fine with two crew bunks in a 4dT room, but put a third in there and you'll have to convince somebody you just stuck it in there for storage, out of the way, and you'd never dream of letting, let alone demanding, anyone sleep on it. Extraneous crewmen would have to go walkabout during the inspections to avoid a head count...

 

[aramis]

I don't think unions are likely to be terribly powerful; it's pretty darned hard to unionize a sfficiently large number of spaceports suficiently to succeed; the first fe major strikes, and shipowners will simply start hiring scabs and training crewmen aboard... And even if the port refuses non-union ships, that hurts the port more than the ships, usually.

Unions have made huge inroads in real world ports... but not so much on ships. Last guy who tried to unionize the crabbers got run out of Dutch... by the crews! (Buddy of mine was working on a Factory Vessel at the time.) When a port demands union ship crews, the ships simply go elsewhere until the port relents.

It's just too easy for the non-union guys to make the pro-union guys no longer around. Same is true aboard spacecraft. A tiny slit in the right spot on a suit, and it's toast for the wearer. And force a union crew on a captain, and he's likely to simply fire them all in a foreign port and hire new.

You hire aboard a ship, you are at the mercy of the skipper... But, by the same token, a skipper needs a crew, and so they tend to not "surprise" crewmen with bad conditions.

Heck, real world military crews get volumes of about 1.5Td per man... counting offices, heads, and infirmaries!

 

[Whipsnade]

I am thinking of reworking HG's stateroom specs to make state rooms 2 tons at the HG's cost and require that additional space equal to that used in stateroom be set aside for common usage spaces at no additional cost.

Andy,

Hasn't that been the standard assumption since HG2 was released?

Staterooms require four tons at a cost of CR500,000 per stateroom. Staterooms actually average about two tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galleys and recreation areas Page 33 - High Guard 2 (emphasis mine)

As for luxurious quarters and the like, if they take up 1.5 times the displacement of standard quarters those fares should 1.5 time of standard fares. Again, nothing really out of the ordinary there, right?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

With regards to volume set aside for crew quarters, like Wil I'd expect there would be no regulation by either the Imperium, unions, or guilds. Instead, the volume would be "enforced' by ergonomics and economics.

Just as the USN finally bowed to the necessity for barracks ashore for nearly all it's ship crews in order to help retain personnel, ship owners and operators in the Imperium are going to have to offer a certain "level" of accommodations for their crews in both volume and amenities.

Lousy living conditions aboard ship mean you'll only be able to hire lousy (or desperate) crewmen and, after you either lose operating time or ships themselves due to the dregs you find yourself only able to hire thanks to the lousy quarters you provide, you'll be quick to improve the volumes and amenities involved.

4 dTons per stateroom is thus a "rule of thumb" like the metric developers use to calculate how many parking spaces a mall will require. Like those 21st Century parking spaces, 4 dTons is a 57th Century investment towards a ship's smooth operation be that operation be revenue generation or warfare.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

I don't think unions are likely to be terribly powerful; it's pretty darned hard to unionize a sfficiently large number of spaceports suficiently to succeed; the first fe major strikes, and shipowners will simply start hiring scabs and training crewmen aboard... And even if the port refuses non-union ships, that hurts the port more than the ships, usually.

Unions have made huge inroads in real world ports... but not so much on ships. Last guy who tried to unionize the crabbers got run out of Dutch... by the crews! (Buddy of mine was working on a Factory Vessel at the time.) When a port demands union ship crews, the ships simply go elsewhere until the port relents.

All this sounds logical and plausible, but the salaries that starship crew commands suggests that they have something going for them. Maybe it's a sort of guild thing instead of a union. Or perhaps something akin to the massive autocracy of the British Jockey Club. If a captain ships unauthorized crew, he gets blacklisted, not only by other crewmembers but by shippers, maintenance workers, stevedores etc. If a crewmember works with a blacklisted crewmate, he gets blacklisted. If a company employs a blacklisted captain on one of their ships, they get blacklisted. If a shipyard works on a blacklisted ship, it gets blacklisted, and so on and so forth.

Anything like that would be a time-and-space specific rule rather than a generic rule, of course.

It's just too easy for the non-union guys to make the pro-union guys no longer around. Same is true aboard spacecraft. A tiny slit in the right spot on a suit, and it's toast for the wearer. And force a union crew on a captain, and he's likely to simply fire them all in a foreign port and hire new.

If the ship is tied to a particular world in such a way that sanctions can be imposed on it (or its owner), contracts that made the captain liable for the return fare of anyone discharged on a foreign world and the salary payable in any case, would prevent anything like that. Tramp vessels I'll grant you.

Heck, real world military crews get volumes of about 1.5Td per man... counting offices, heads, and infirmaries!

Once more showing that crew (and passengers!) must have something going for them since they get a full 4T apiece to enjoy.

(Mind you, I just can't believe that passengers aren't allowed to travel double occupancy and that some wouldn't want to do so if it cost them roughly half the standard fare).


Hans

 

[aramis]

IMTU, 2Td is the "standard" for crews, not 4Td. Why? Corporate ships cram crew into as small a space as doable without them going insane. (And US Navy praxis shows it's a survivable rate, as does the HG crewing allowance.) It's not comfy, but it's good long term.

Passengers, however, need that extra space. Ever spent a week entirely inside a hotel room or a trailer? I have. With good company, it's fun; with bad company, it's hellacious.

Oh, and NASA puts 7 people in 71 cubic meters.... just over 5 tons... but the training and testing for that is rather rough. So I don't feel bad at all about using 1Td per crewman on designs where I think I can get away with it logically.

All this sounds logical and plausible, but the salaries that starship crew commands suggests that they have something going for them. Maybe it's a sort of guild thing instead of a union. Or perhaps something akin to the massive autocracy of the British Jockey Club. If a captain ships unauthorized crew, he gets blacklisted, not only by other crewmembers but by shippers, maintenance workers, stevedores etc. If a crewmember works with a blacklisted crewmate, he gets blacklisted. If a company employs a blacklisted captain on one of their ships, they get blacklisted. If a shipyard works on a blacklisted ship, it gets blacklisted, and so on and so forth.

Anything like that would be a time-and-space specific rule rather than a generic rule, of course.


If the ship is tied to a particular world in such a way that sanctions can be imposed on it (or its owner), contracts that made the captain liable for the return fare of anyone discharged on a foreign world and the salary payable in any case, would prevent anything like that. Tramp vessels I'll grant you.


Once more showing that crew (and passengers!) must have something going for them since they get a full 4T apiece to enjoy.

(Mind you, I just can't believe that passengers aren't allowed to travel double occupancy and that some wouldn't want to do so if it cost them roughly half the standard fare).


Hans

The cost of DO is significantly more than half of SO.

The share of the steward doesn't change, nor does (except under MGT) the cost of LS per person. And that accounts for about 1/3 the cost of a passage; the other 2/3 are the cargo loss and infrastructure, which does scale. The exact ratios vary from system to system... But DO should be about 65 to 70% the cost of SO. I've shown the math on the boards for HG, MGT, and (during the playtest) T20. (Yes, the numbers for DO pricing in T20 are my fault...) I've even worked them out for sublight travel (posted over on rpgg.)


Why 4Td per passenger? It's a good amount of space. It's a little more than a singlewide trailer shared by 4 people, or a camp trailer (8'x20'x7') for one. It's just enough space to work out, stay healthy, and have sanitary and food prep facilities that a person not trained for it can cope with.


As for crew getting 4Td? Do they? Not in HG; only officers. MGT allows doubling crew up, too. Bk2 allows it for non-commercial ships.

Civil crews, especially tramps, need to do something to keep the guys aboard; passenger equivalent quarters are a good start, especially if the quarters are effectively "home." Given that a 15' wide singlewide is about 14 Td, and are rated for a family of 4, one can see that 3.5Td per person is a sufficient long term rate if they have something to do outside that space.