Thoughts on The State of Traveller Related Software

[DickNervous]

I guess it was about 2 months ago that I decided I was going to dive back into Traveller after a *very* long hiatus by running a campaign at my local game store. So I started researching to see what has happened since I last played in the late 80's, and to say that quest for knowledge has kept me quite busy would be an understatement.

**NOTE: Please understand that this is all just my opinion from about a month of observation and research so if I am wrong, please correct me. I know that the combined experience of the members of COTI is... well, vast would come close, and I want to learn.**

There is one are however that seems to be a bit lacking, and that is the area of software aids. From what I have been able to find there seems to be a few reasons for this.

1. Fragmentation: As we all know there are several versions of Traveller. From what I can tell it seems that CT, MgT, and T5 are the top 3 followed by MT. It seems that the process of creating worlds is similar enough where tools for one version could be used to do the bulk of the heavy lifting for another and then you manually adjust as needed. However, character generation is very different, to the point where each version requires it's own specialized version of a character sheet, even though the general types of information on them are the same.
   
2. Licensing: I'm no expert on this stuff (so correct me if I am wrong) but it appears that Mongoose is fairly restrictive about what you can and can't do with their rule set. Much more so than FFE, which I assume is why there seems to be many more tools for CT/MT/T5 than MgT out there.
   
3. Standards: There is no standard for exchanging data between applications such as an XML Schema or anything like that. But I am just starting to learn how to use XML and similar tools so it could be that I have just missed this. I know that both the Traveller5 Web Apps and TravellerMap both have ways to export sector/world data, but I don't know if they are interchangeable. (I haven't gotten that deep yet...). But I have not seen anything for other data such as characters, vehicles, ships, etc.

Now you might be asking why I bring this up, and that is a good question and deserves an answer. The bottom line is that I am somewhat of an advanced novice at coding (really really good at figuring out what others did and modifying it, not as good at creating from scratch) with experience mostly in PHP, HTML/CSS, Wordpress, and most recently MS Word/Visual Basic and I want to get better. I want to learn JavaScript and XML and I figure the best way is to do a project that is fun, like something related to Traveller and I want to do something that others can benefit from.

So now my questions...

1. Is my analysis correct, particularly the licensing part? Or did I miss something?
2. Does anyone have a list of Traveller-related applications that are still "active" and currently maintained?
3. Is there any value in having an XML Schema for exchanging data between applications? If so, what data? World/System/Sector data? Character data? Item (weapon, ship, vehicle, etc) data?
4. What types of tools do you think would be valuable?

I am sure I will think of others as we go along, but I figure this should get the ball rolling. :rofl:

 

[DickNervous]

Here is an example of something that I would like more clarification on regarding what can and can't be done, specifically in relation to Mongoose Traveller.

I had downloaded the Foreven Sector Dev Pack and was reading through the licensing documents and came across the following in the Read Me First document in the What Can't I do? section:

What Can’t I do?
The following is not permitted under the Traveller Developer’s Pack – if you wish to attempt one of these projects, you should contact Mongoose Publishing for further information at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com. This is not a comprehensive list, and you should get in contact if you want to do anything that is not covered by the Fair Use Policy or Logo Licences.

• Publish material for older and out of print versions of Traveller, and release them commercially.
• Publish software based on the current edition of Traveller.
• Publish Original Traveller Universe material beyond the confines of the Fair Use Policy or Foreven Free Sector Logo Licence.

To me this means that if I want to create any software that uses the current MgT rules I need permission from Mongoose, even if the rules I am using are in the SRDs that they have published as Open Gaming Content. Is that correct?

Then the next question is what constitutes "software"? If a form software? What if it has macros to do calculations for you? Or things like drop down lists so people can just pick items instead of typing them?

I can understand that they don't want applications out there that would allow people to do things without requiring the books, but where is the line?

This also explains why there is no rule set for applications like Fantasy Grounds, though they could develop and *sell* one.....

 

[aramis]

In terms of number of players preferring, MT tends to beat T5. In terms of posts, however, T5 beats MT. And both GT and GTIW top either of them.

What I see based upon multiple boards is that the preferences are generally, in order: MgT, GT, CT, GTIW, MT, T5.

MgT is very liberal about what can be done, but moderately tight about what can be labeled as compatible with MgT...

FFE is very liberal about both.

 

[simonh]

To me this means that if I want to create any software that uses the current MgT rules I need permission from Mongoose, even if the rules I am using are in the SRDs that they have published as Open Gaming Content. Is that correct?

What it's saying is you can't do those things under the terms of the "Traveller Developer’s Pack" by Mongoose. You are perfectly at liberty to do those things under other licensing terms that allow you to do so.

For example I believe Marc Miller (or one of his legal entities, such as FFE. Can't remember the details), does permit the publication of free as in not-for-pay software that supports any of his published rules sets such as CT, T4 and T5 and you are allowed to say so. You just have to do so under the terms of that license. You can't do so under the terms of the Mongoose "Traveller Developer’s Pack". That's all the first bullet point is saying.

You can publish software based on the Mongoose published OGL licensed material. The OGL intentionaly allows implementation in software. Technically though, that's not 'based on the current edition of Traveller' because the material in the "Traveller" OGL is not technically part of Traveller the Trademark. The OGL does not alow any use of trademarks, so you are free to implement software based on it, but you can't call it Traveller software, or claim compatibility with Traveller and you have to be very careful about even mentioning Traveller in relation to it whatsoever. This of course makes it very difficult to distribute and publicise your software to the people who might want to use it.

So when bullet point two says you can't publish software based on the current edition of Traveller, it means Traveller as a line of published trademarked game books. The OGL licensed material is not part of that and you can publish software based on it. This is a very well established, intentional feature of the OGL license.

But please don't take my word for it. If you want to publish something under a license you need to do so under it's terms, not under my description of them in a random forum post. Hopefully I can help point you in the right direction though. These different licenses can be difficult to navigate.

Simon Hibbs

EDIT: As always, Aramis' post below is far more succinct and to the point than my ramblings.

 

[aramis]

Mongoose's Traveller Development Pack specifically applies only to MGT.

All FFE lines (CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, T5) are covered by Marc's FFE Fair Use Policy.

GT and GTIW are covered under the SJG standard fair use provisions.

 

[DickNervous]

What it's saying is you can't do those things under the terms of the "Traveller Developer’s Pack" by Mongoose. You are perfectly at liberty to do those things under other licensing terms that allow you to do so.

For example I believe Marc Miller (or one of his legal entities, such as FFE. Can't remember the details), does permit the publication of free as in not-for-pay software that supports any of his published rules sets such as CT, T4 and T5 and you are allowed to say so. You just have to do so under the terms of that license. You can't do so under the terms of the Mongoose "Traveller Developer’s Pack". That's all the first bullet point is saying.

You can publish software based on the Mongoose published OGL licensed material. The OGL intentionaly allows implementation in software. Technically though, that's not 'based on the current edition of Traveller' because the material in the "Traveller" OGL is not technically part of Traveller the Trademark. The OGL does not alow any use of trademarks, so you are free to implement software based on it, but you can't call it Traveller software, or claim compatibility with Traveller and you have to be very careful about even mentioning Traveller in relation to it whatsoever. This of course makes it very difficult to distribute and publicise your software to the people who might want to use it.

So when bullet point two says you can't publish software based on the current edition of Traveller, it means Traveller as a line of published trademarked game books. The OGL licensed material is not part of that and you can publish software based on it. This is a very well established, intentional feature of the OGL license.

..and this is why I am not a lawyer.

Mongoose's Traveller Development Pack specifically applies only to MGT.

All FFE lines (CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, T5) are covered by Marc's FFE Fair Use Policy.

GT and GTIW are covered under the SJG standard fair use provisions.

This part I understand. Heck, it's the only part of it all that is easy to understand.

My questions stems from this: If I wanted to develop an application/website/form that aids in character generation to the point where people would only need the books for detailed descriptions of things (similar to this MegaTraveller Tool), is that allowed for Mongoose Traveller? And don't worry if nobody knows, I will send the question to Mongoose if I ever get to the point where I have something that I feel is ready to share with the world.

I am assuming that since it exists for MT that it is for all the versions covered by the same FFE Fair Use Policy.

But discussing legal issues, while important, isn't the reason I started this thread. The reason was to find out:

1. What applications are out there that are still being actively supported and used?
2. What applications, tools, forms, etc do people want?
3. Has anyone given though to standardized data formats (like XML)?

 

[aramis]

..and this is why I am not a lawyer.



This part I understand. Heck, it's the only part of it all that is easy to understand.

My questions stems from this: If I wanted to develop an application/website/form that aids in character generation to the point where people would only need the books for detailed descriptions of things (similar to this MegaTraveller Tool), is that allowed for Mongoose Traveller? And don't worry if nobody knows, I will send the question to Mongoose if I ever get to the point where I have something that I feel is ready to share with the world.

I am assuming that since it exists for MT that it is for all the versions covered by the same FFE Fair Use Policy.

Because they don't include the careers in the SRD, my understanding is that, No, you can't do a similar one for MGT, but you could do one for Spica's Career Books for MGT, but in either case, you cannot mark it as compatible with using the logo...

 

[DickNervous]

Because they don't include the careers in the SRD, my understanding is that, No, you can't do a similar one for MGT, but you could do one for Spica's Career Books for MGT, but in either case, you cannot mark it as compatible with using the logo...

Got it.

So anything I create that uses Mongoose published materials that is not specifically in the SRD would require permission from Mongoose for me to share it (whether free or paid).

If I build something that uses only SPICA material, I could share it but not say it is compatible with MgT.

The good news is that I want to do something like this just do see if I can. The bad news is that if I did, I wouldn't be able to brag about it and show it off without permission. And I ask about MgT since that is what I am using for my campaign.

Oh well, I could still build if to other versions if people want it.

Thanks!

 

[Matt123]

1. What applications are out there that are still being actively supported and used?
2. What applications, tools, forms, etc do people want?
3. Has anyone given though to standardized data formats (like XML)?

One of the underlying truths in the software industry is that people don't know what they need until you show it to them. This means you will generally get better feedback by picking a subject that you find interesting and knocking out the software.

Standardized data formats do get bought up every now and again. But unless you have something other developers want to communicate with, its pretty pointless. Again, just knock out whatever pushes your buttons. If I'm keen for my efforts to talk with your app, I will drop you an email.

In a nutshell, go nuts and produce something. Don't worry about duplicating efforts, focus instead on making something you think is cool that gamers may want to use.

On the licensing side, put disclaimers on your site (FFE has a good one), make it clear it is a hobby project and don't try to make money from your app. If Marc or Mongoose take offense, they will write to you before they send the lawyers. Don't be a and the odds are good that they won't take offense.

 

[DickNervous]

One of the underlying truths in the software industry is that people don't know what they need until you show it to them. This means you will generally get better feedback by picking a subject that you find interesting and knocking out the software.

Standardized data formats do get bought up every now and again. But unless you have something other developers want to communicate with, its pretty pointless. Again, just knock out whatever pushes your buttons. If I'm keen for my efforts to talk with your app, I will drop you an email.

In a nutshell, go nuts and produce something. Don't worry about duplicating efforts, focus instead on making something you think is cool that gamers may want to use.

On the licensing side, put disclaimers on your site (FFE has a good one), make it clear it is a hobby project and don't try to make money from your app. If Marc or Mongoose take offense, they will write to you before they send the lawyers. Don't be a and the odds are good that they won't take offense.

But I am Dick.....

All to true though about people not knowing what they need until you show it to them. Now I just need to decide if I want to tackle it using Visual Basic, PHP, or JavaScript to take care of the heavy lifting and the best way to make it all look pretty to print.

Thanks!

 

[Matt123]

> But I am Dick.....

Ummm... yeah, I didn't think that through! lol.

 

[aramis]

Got it.

So anything I create that uses Mongoose published materials that is not specifically in the SRD would require permission from Mongoose for me to share it (whether free or paid).

If I build something that uses only SPICA material, I could share it but not say it is compatible with MgT.

The good news is that I want to do something like this just do see if I can. The bad news is that if I did, I wouldn't be able to brag about it and show it off without permission. And I ask about MgT since that is what I am using for my campaign.

Oh well, I could still build if to other versions if people want it.

Thanks!

Spica declared the career tables themselves open content, but not the descriptions.

 

[DickNervous]

Does anyone know who wrote the MegaTraveller character generator that is hosted here on (TravellerRPG)?

I would just like the thank them for their work since I am using it as a template to build my own version and teaching myself JavaScript.

 

[Enoff]

Thats a cool little program, never noticed it before.

 

[DickNervous]

I thought so.
I am using it to teach myself JavaScript by building one for MgT, and I am doing pretty good so far.

 

[simonh]

I'm having loads of fun with Pythonista on my iPad. Once I got over a few small architectural hurdles, I'm going full-steam ahead with a tablet version of StarBase.

Right now I can generate a random sector map, add and remove worlds by touch, swipe to scroll around the map and pup-up a table of world details.

Next steps are to add editing functions to the world details panel, integrate the random world naming system from Starbase and implement a persistence layer so you can save/load your sector.

The main problem with StarBase development over the last few years is time. While I'm at home my family comes first. But being able to develop directly on the iPad during my commute has allowed me to make far more progress than I expected. I can also fit in a bit of dev work here and there at times when firing up a full desktop dev environment wouldn't be viable. I implemented the initial version of the world details viewer while siting in the stands watching my kids having their horse riding lessons. That wouldn't have been practical even with a laptop, but on a tablet it was effortless. It also helps that I already wrote Starbase. Althought the iOS libraries are a bit different, it's a familiar problem domain for me.

The only problem is it takes 10 seconds for the app to fire up. Once it's running it's nicely responsive, but generating 40 x 32 graphical hex objects takes a while.

This time I'm going all-in for Traveller specific functionality. On the iPad it's not really achievable to have custom rules scripts. The save format will basically be the latest SEC file format, with an additional text file per world for GM notes. KISS.

Simon Hibbs

 

[robject]

First: WOW! That MegaTraveller chargen page is excellent. And it's all in one big fat page!! Not that that's necessarily "good programming", but heck, for HTML/JavaScript it is portable in the extreme.

I'm totally going to use it. And ... it needs a output data structure. Output to JSON and XML. Hmmmm.

Anyway.

Joshua Bell has the right idea with his Travellermap website: he deals with several sector data formats, and documents his use of them.

So for example, code that generates a random sector of data (mine for example) outputs a format that Joshua's Poster Maker understands and can render. In short, both of them can speak T5's standard format, and Joshua's can recognize older versions as well.

Careers could be easier, in a way: since they are keyed to one and only one rule system, there is only one "range" of data. Representation is not the true concern: write the app and thoughtfully design the output structure. When other programmers fall in love with your app they will write code that use your structures.

Ships are difficult. I've got a format, HGS has a format, everybody has their own storage format. The solution for this involves import methods for compatibility, but FOR EXAMPLE, HGS and my T5 Shipyard will never be very compatible, simply because the rules aren't compatible.

That caveat aside, it would be possible for my program to import HGS files, and map components across, but the results would probably not satisfy, because of the different rules being used and, therefore, the mapping decisions made.

 

[aramis]

First: WOW! That MegaTraveller chargen page is excellent. And it's all in one big fat page!! Not that that's necessarily "good programming", but heck, for HTML/JavaScript it is portable in the extreme.

I'm totally going to use it. And ... it needs an output structure. Hmmmm.

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