Thriving systems

[atpollard]

Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Re the orbital habitat - is it important that an orbital be in the "habital" zone? Or does even a TL of 9 render this a mote point?

It is unnecessary. A planet needs to be located roughly in the zone where the temperature on the world from the heat of the sun is in the range where water is liquid (ice to steam) to sustain life as we know it. We can’t live on molten rock and we can’t live at the temperature where the air freezes.

Space habitats, like ships, have heat to spare and will probably need large radiators to discard the excess heat. It could probably be built as low as TL 6 with Apollo hardware, fission power and hydrogen fuel cells (although skimming the gas giant might get exciting). Artificial light or large mirrors to concentrate the natural light might be desirable for plants, animals and human comfort.

 

[sgbrown]

Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Re the orbital habitat - is it important that an orbital be in the "habital" zone? Or does even a TL of 9 render this a mote point?

-clip-

It {Edit The space habitat}could probably be built as low as TL 6 with Apollo hardware, fission power and hydrogen fuel cells (although skimming the gas giant might get exciting). -clip- </font>[/QUOTE]Ok.

Given this, I'm thinking a suitable size orbital could be sustainable around Saturn at say TL6? Instead of skiming you could mine the rings for ice. The key would be being able to find suitable and minable mineral and trace element resources to replace loses and provide for growth. Since the bulk of the people would embrace technology out of necessity, the colony would be trying to obtaining higher TL's as a matter of course. - So before long it's close too the culture norm or maybe even closer to the culture max in tech level with the exception of heavy industry.

Problems with this thought?

 

[atpollard]

History is full of multi-generation projects. Terracing mountains to create farm land or building a Cathedral to name two.

Imagine a world with a Venus-like thick poisonous atmosphere located just outside the liquid water zone (average temperature –10 degrees Celsius). But some tough Minnesota pioneer types have a dream to nudge the world closer to the sun and Terraform it into a Earth Like home for their Grandchildren’s Grandchildren. Every year the average temperature increases 1/2 of a degree, so the temperature will be earthlike in less than 100 years. The land area has been divided into 1000 square mile family tracts and each family seeds its land with an engineered bacteria that eats the toxic atmosphere and converts it into organic compounds. In 20 years the planet will be able to support lichens with an arctic circle like temperature and a still toxic atmosphere – so the families seed their land with lichens that perform better than the bacteria. In 40 years, the lichens are replaced by grasses. In 60 years trees and shrubs are added. In 80 years, the first toxic resistant animals arrive. In 100 years, the air is breathable with filters and the crops support the colonists. In 200 years, the atmosphere is Earth normal and the 10th generation of the original settlers either live on an agricultural paradise or are the Nobility for a thriving High Population world.

None of this seems beyond TL 9, but the colony needs to survive until the project is done. And that brings you back to the mineral wealth needed to support the early colonists.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Given this, I'm thinking a suitable size orbital could be sustainable around Saturn at say TL6? Instead of skiming you could mine the rings for ice. The key would be being able to find suitable and minable mineral and trace element resources to replace loses and provide for growth. Since the bulk of the people would embrace technology out of necessity, the colony would be trying to obtaining higher TL's as a matter of course. - So before long it's close too the culture norm or maybe even closer to the culture max in tech level with the exception of heavy industry.

Problems with this thought?

The end of the original Apollo program was to be a settlement on Mars and mining the asteroid belt with only slightly improved hardware. I see no reason that your colony would not mine the local moons and rings until they grew and then mine asteroids. With the entire population trained, focused and dependant on space, they could easily take the lead in orbital manufacturing and spacecraft. Heavy Industry might not be an exception after all – once they gain a TL or two, the asteroids are easier to mine than planets and they have unlimited energy to support industry, near perfect vacuum for refining and no problem disposing of industrial wastes.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Other than "Garden Worlds" which world types should have the highest chance of flourishing? (ie being both profitable and desirable)

In an exploration campaign, what are scouts looking for when they perform a survey to determine if a system is a high value system?

I'm hoping this isn't defined by cannon as I'd like to get fresh thoughts and ideas on it, to include any real world historical perspectives.

SGB:

Answering your post depends on many factors--

What does the homeworld government seek? (Minerals, metals they have exhausted, lebensraum for over-population, or large unemployed masses from shut down corporations due to previous mentioned circumstances?)

What does the Home Government have for TL for their Scout service? (How far away can they go and seek these worlds? What will be the initial TL of any colony?--Homeworld minus one, by canon at least)

How many people can the Homeworld move to the new world?(based on HW's TL, Jump capable transportation, size of vessels)

If Its metals and minerals--then yes, other posters are correct, low cost low gravity, metal-mineral rich worlds, and Asteroid belts are prime for flourishing colonies.

Lebensraum worlds --breathable tainted atmospheres that take a minimum level of technology to overcome (Filter rebreather masks are TL5 to manufacture after all, so there's a bottom line for each and every Human sophont. Some racies may not be affected by tainted atmospheres-- that discussion has also been done on these boards)

Likewise, Low gravity is a plus, so size 6 worlds and smaller generally, which can allow easier movement to and from the surface.

TL8 beanstalks--longterm cost stations
TL8 Railgun mass driver cargo pod machines can hurl the resources into space for passing freighters' shuttles to scoop up and load away.

TL7, base tech for an aircraft like spaceplane-shuttle.

The Lower the gravity the lower the costs, and affects of moving colonists, machinery, and resources is the rule of thumb here. Homeworld's tech level plays heavily on what the new world will be expected to do--so the Scouts must have a clear idea of what it is Home Govt. sent them out to find.


[1] "Lebensraum"--Sol. German, defined as Living-space literally.

 

[sid6.7]

The types of things I picture running into are things like:

A route to a particular cluster can go through two different systems:

System A has a type G star with a far type M binary. Just outside the normal "habitable" zone, theres a cold - mars like world with a gas giant a little farther out.

System B is a type M star with a world approximately the same size and gravity as earth within the habitable zone. N2, CO2, and H20 atmosphere (trace O2) and liquid water. The world is a bit steamy due at 50 deg C average. Oceans near the equator are very hot - nearly boiling. Lots of storm activity due to high heat input. Additionaly it has exotic single celled plant life that is toxic to Terrestrial (or Vilani or whatever the main cluture is) life. (Think of some of the early assumptions of what Vensus would be and you're about there.) No gas giant or belts.

Location says an installation needs to be in at least one of them. Which one has the best chance of becoming a thriving colony in it's own right as opposed to just a high maintenance whistle stop? (After the initial logistics play out - government and other factors can easily change this, but given similar governments which one starts the best?)

okay much better..much less vauge....

my gut tells me system A would be the better spot
to start but as mentioned by ATp it would take
a generation or 2 to make it earth like....
simply becuase a mars like planet would be
easier to work up a fix for colonization
at TL9-12....and you get a jump point in the mix
to. so this would you fill my #1 and #2 requirements right away...

why i think system B is a no go is becuase of the
toxicity to humanoids even at TL9-12 there would
be NO gaurentee that they could come up with
something that could combat the organism...so
the system would be a "whistle stop" and
an orbital one at that...it would only be
able to send down REMOTE craft to pull up fuel
for refueling purposes for the station. once
in space the toxic cell would die(one assumes
its oxygen fed and can't take hard radiation
and cold space would kill it sinces its a hot
organism)...so hi-tech truck stop only...
this one only fullfils my #1 requirement..


on the other hand:
if you were to have a represive empire in control
system B might be better in ONE way...it would
be easier to control a toxic planet i think for
the fueling then a gas giant...

1. if someone trys to refuel planetside they die
the empire doesnt even have to say its toxic.

2. they put an orbital and a ship or 2 and its
pertty guarded.

3. it would still be a "whistlestop" but very
strategic in nature to get to your cluster...

4. still only fulfilling my #1 requirement


alternate short answer?

becareful you dont get "to real" it can burn
the fun outa the game in many ways, esp. for
some players....

system A...

 

[sgbrown]

Originally posted by sid6.7:

-clip-


alternate short answer?

becareful you dont get "to real" it can burn
the fun outa the game in many ways, esp. for
some players....

system A...

The getting real part is for the GMs game - ie putting the setting together. How player's role play it to take that worthless whistle stop and make it outshine the other is up to them!

 

[epicenter00]

If it's not Earth, I think the appeal drops dramatically with each category that a given world is not Earth. Conversely, how appealing a world that isn't Earth has to do with how easy it would be make it like Earth.

Originally posted by atpollard:
History is full of multi-generation projects. Terracing mountains to create farm land or building a Cathedral to name two.

It doesn't even need to be that, honestly. You could have your cake and eat it, too. While I've always loved the idea of a people with that kind of timeless long-term vision that modern people lack, you could go for a midlevel between the two. An entire community (say 15,000 or so people) go to some system and find some planet that might require decades, even centuries of work. They do whatever is necessary, then go into cold berths. At the next milestone, they're carefully revived, do whatever work is necessary for the next step, then go back into cold sleep again.

Given that the Traveller universe isn't about rapid communication, the severe time disconnects described in books like The Forever War wouldn't be that bad - Traveller is full of places where people have decided to "tune in and drop out."

Unfortunately, Traveller instituted that idiotic rule about a % of people coming out of Cold Sleep dying* so perhaps people might use Fast Drug instead.


* Pet Peeve: Yes, because even at TL15, people still keel over dead from cold sleep. We can shoot subatomic particles at people, create massive null-fields that absorb energy and float entire cities on anti-grav. But we can't get cryogenics to work correctly.

 

[shadowdragon]

its not cold sleep, it people.

a small % of the time people react poorly to the process just as a small percentage of people are allergic to things no one ever thought one could be allergic to.
my mother has an allergic reation to any metal touching her skin except for white gold. pure gold AND pure platinum will give her hives, but not mixed to make white gold.
some people are allergic to sunlight.

people are strange.......

the way i look at it each person in a low berth has a small percentage chance of dying. this represents several factors: equipment malfunction, incompetent technicians, mysterious reaction to the proccess, whatever. i do not roll to see what % of low passengers die each trip- if someone always died NO ONE would use a lowberth unless there was absolutely no other option. sure as hell know i wouldn't.

 

[Hal]

After seeing some of the posts in this thread, I thought I'd mention that one might want to take a peek at GURPS SPACE for forth Edition GURPS. The Book is generic enough that it can be used with other game systems, yet has some very specific information that would fall in line with what has been discussed thus far.

My take on having an M class star with planets in orbit being "desirable" is that in general, most habitable planets (ie planets within the life zone where water is a liquid) would be more like the planet HOTH than anything else. If you take the time to read up on astrophysics - much of the light output by an M class star will be in the infrared region and would make it unlikely that photosynthetic based plants would be all that abundant. With the colder temperature, the chemistry would be slower overall than on a world where the temperatures are much warmer.

The other thing about worlds that are within the life zone of an M class star is that they generally tend to be tidal locked because they'd be in too close to the star in question. This would present a world where one side is always in darkness and the other side is always in light. The habitable zones would be that twilight region where you have near darkness and near light nearby each other.

In any event - GURPS SPACE for 4th edition has some nice formulas that help you figure/calculate the following data:

Minimum molecular weight retained
Resources
Atmosphere types
planetary density based on diameter types
Atmospheric pressure
Average temperature
Stellar type
Stellar temperature
singular/Binary/Trinary star systems

There is even a section on alien creation, social creation, etc...